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P

Picky

Guest
OK, been swimming again tonight.

Breast and Back are fine Butterfly is rubbish (that will be
my next mission)

Freestyle is still a killer, I tried to analyse it a bit.

First 25 is easy, I guess because I am working anaerobically
at the start Second 25 gets harder, I guess this is because
Im switching to my aerobic system and this obviously needs
oxygen, thats when it all starts to go wrong. If I breath
every 2 strokes I can keep going but my stroke is appaling
If I try to get back into every 3 I "run out of oxygen" and
feel as though I need to get my head out asap

Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull bouy, I can
do this forever, breathing every three. I guess that this
suggests that my body is not balanced without the bouy (I
can almost see Terry Laughlin nodding)

Oh well I will keep trying and "swim downhill" as well as
emptying my lungs.

Keep the advice coming, I want to swim"

Picky (Chlorine the breakfast of winners)
 
L

Liz D

Guest
[email protected] (Picky) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>[snip} Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull bouy,
>I can do this forever, breathing every three. I guess that
>this suggests that my body is not balanced without the bouy
>(I can almost see Terry Laughlin nodding)
>

No - it means that you are not draining aerobic energy out
of your large quad muscles like you do when you are swimming
full stroke and using your legs to kick. That's why you can
do it foreever. (Larry has posted on this subject at quite
some length).

A couple of suggestions: If you have a "busy" kick (4 or 6
beat) then just try to make it as small as possible except
when you are really trying to sprint. I found I couldn't cut
my kick down to a 2 beat, it just puts all my timing out,
but I consciously made it smaller and it drains a lot less
energy that way.

Do some kick set work to increase the aerobic capacity of
your legs. Even if you are a runner or cyclist, there
doesn't seem to be a lot of cross-over benefit into
swimming. But this is a longer term solution.

Liz D
 
D

Dory

Guest
Have you tried to use Zoomers? The kick is the reason you
get out of breath. And as you realized using the pull buoy,
you don't really have to kick in order to move. So either
get some Zoomers or stop kicking for the time being until
you build up some confidence. Keeping one arm straight out
front while the other one is recovering and rolling like a
log to breathe is a good idea.

[email protected] (Liz D) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Picky) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> >[snip} Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull
> >bouy, I can do this forever, breathing every three. I
> >guess that this suggests that my body is not balanced
> >without the bouy (I can almost see Terry Laughlin
> >nodding)
> >
>
> No - it means that you are not draining aerobic energy out
> of your large quad muscles like you do when you are
> swimming full stroke and using your legs to kick. That's
> why you can do it foreever. (Larry has posted on this
> subject at quite some length).
>
> A couple of suggestions: If you have a "busy" kick (4 or 6
> beat) then just try to make it as small as possible except
> when you are really trying to sprint. I found I couldn't
> cut my kick down to a 2 beat, it just puts all my timing
> out, but I consciously made it smaller and it drains a lot
> less energy that way.
>
> Do some kick set work to increase the aerobic capacity of
> your legs. Even if you are a runner or cyclist, there
> doesn't seem to be a lot of cross-over benefit into
> swimming. But this is a longer term solution.
>
> Liz D
 
P

Picky

Guest
Im not convinced about by quads because I hardly move my
legs at all when I swim.

[email protected] (Liz D) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Picky) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> >[snip} Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull
> >bouy, I can do this forever, breathing every three. I
> >guess that this suggests that my body is not balanced
> >without the bouy (I can almost see Terry Laughlin
> >nodding)
> >
>
> No - it means that you are not draining aerobic energy out
> of your large quad muscles like you do when you are
> swimming full stroke and using your legs to kick. That's
> why you can do it foreever. (Larry has posted on this
> subject at quite some length).
>
> A couple of suggestions: If you have a "busy" kick (4 or 6
> beat) then just try to make it as small as possible except
> when you are really trying to sprint. I found I couldn't
> cut my kick down to a 2 beat, it just puts all my timing
> out, but I consciously made it smaller and it drains a lot
> less energy that way.
>
> Do some kick set work to increase the aerobic capacity of
> your legs. Even if you are a runner or cyclist, there
> doesn't seem to be a lot of cross-over benefit into
> swimming. But this is a longer term solution.
>
> Liz D
 
P

Picky

Guest
> Have you tried to use Zoomers? The kick is the reason you
> get out of breath. And as you realized using the pull
> buoy, you don't really have to kick in order to move. So
> either get some Zoomers or stop kicking for the time being
> until you build up some confidence.

Yes, I tried Zoomers, I took some training programmes from
Emmet Hines book which had TI drills in and got out of bed
so I could train early. I was full of enthisiasm and excited
that I was going to sort my stroke out at last.

I swam 50m and was told by the lifeguard that I couldnt use
them because they were dangerous and I could catch someone
with them and hurt them.

I was really happy about that!!

> Keeping one arm straight out front while the other one
> is recovering and rolling like a log to breathe is a
> good idea.

Yes, I agree with this, I guess that when you say "keeping
one arm straight" you are talking about front quadrant
swimming, I reckon that this is a good drill to help improve
my balance.
 
A

Al

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> > Have you tried to use Zoomers? The kick is the reason
> > you get out of breath. And as you realized using the
> > pull buoy, you don't really have to kick in order to
> > move. So either get some Zoomers or stop kicking for the
> > time being until you build up some confidence.
>
> Yes, I tried Zoomers, I took some training programmes from
> Emmet Hines book which had TI drills in and got out of bed
> so I could train early. I was full of enthisiasm and
> excited that I was going to sort my stroke out at last.
>
> I swam 50m and was told by the lifeguard that I couldnt
> use them because they were dangerous and I could catch
> someone with them and hurt them.

That's pathetic. I would complain to the pool management
about that. In my entire life of swimming, I've never, EVER
seen anyone injured by someone wearing fins. I concede that
minor injuries might be possible given the perfect
circumstances, but that's true with pretty much any piece of
equipment you'd be prone to take into the water with you.

> I was really happy about that!!
>
>
> > Keeping one arm straight out front while the other one
> > is recovering and rolling like a log to breathe is a
> > good idea.
>
> Yes, I agree with this, I guess that when you say "keeping
> one arm straight" you are talking about front quadrant
> swimming, I reckon that this is a good drill to help
> improve my balance.

- Al
 
L

Liz D

Guest
[email protected] (Picky) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Im not convinced about by quads because I hardly move my
> legs at all when I swim.

and yet ...

[email protected] (Picky) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Freestyle is still a killer, I tried to analyse it a bit.
>
> First 25 is easy, I guess because I am working
> anaerobically at the start Second 25 gets harder, I guess
> this is because Im switching to my aerobic system and this
> obviously needs oxygen, thats when it all starts to go
> wrong. If I breath every 2 strokes I can keep going but my
> stroke is appaling If I try to get back into every 3 I
> "run out of oxygen" and feel as though I need to get my
> head out asap
>
> Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull bouy, I can
> do this forever, breathing every three.

So if it's not your quads, what do you think is causing the
big difference in energy requirements between full-stroke
and pull buoy swimming?

Liz D
 
M

Mark P

Guest
>>Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull bouy, I can
>>do this forever, breathing every three.
>
>
> So if it's not your quads, what do you think is causing
> the big difference in energy requirements between full-
> stroke and pull buoy swimming?
>

Balance problems would be my guess. Either his body position
without a buoy is so bad that his drag is substantially
increased, or the muscles he uses to stabilize himself
without a buoy or exhausting him.
 
O

Oscargrouch

Guest
my pool (ga tech) has a sign stating no fins, etc...to hell
with injuries, i don't want to swim in the wake of some
asshole wearing fins next to me

"Al" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > > Have you tried to use Zoomers? The kick is the reason
> > > you get out of breath. And as you realized using the
> > > pull buoy, you don't really have to kick in order to
> > > move. So either get some Zoomers or stop kicking for
> > > the time being until you build up some confidence.
> >
> > Yes, I tried Zoomers, I took some training programmes
> > from Emmet Hines book which had TI drills in and got
> > out of bed so I could train early. I was full of
> > enthisiasm and excited that I was going to sort my
> > stroke out at last.
> >
> > I swam 50m and was told by the lifeguard that I couldnt
> > use them because they were dangerous and I could catch
> > someone with them and hurt them.
>
> That's pathetic. I would complain to the pool management
> about that. In my entire life of swimming, I've never,
> EVER seen anyone injured by someone wearing fins. I
> concede that minor injuries might be possible given the
> perfect circumstances, but that's true with pretty much
> any piece of equipment you'd be prone to take into the
> water with you.
>
> > I was really happy about that!!
> >
> >
> > > Keeping one arm straight out front while the other one
> > > is recovering and rolling like a log to breathe is a
> > > good idea.
> >
> > Yes, I agree with this, I guess that when you say
> > "keeping one arm straight" you are talking about front
> > quadrant swimming, I reckon that this is a good drill to
> > help improve my balance.
>
>
> - Al
 
A

Al

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

> my pool (ga tech) has a sign stating no fins, etc...to
> hell with injuries, i don't want to swim in the wake of
> some asshole wearing fins next to me

That makes more sense than the "safety" argument. However,
I've never found the wake to be even detectable from other
than someone I was swimming directly behind (as opposed to
'next to') - and the odds are if they have fins and I don't,
I'm not behind them for long. I find, for instance, somebody
doing breastroke kick to be far more of a general hindrance
than turbulence created by fins.

You'll be relieved to know that I almost never wear fins
myself. Too bulky in my gym bag :).

- Al
 
D

Diablo

Guest
maybe he just isn't built for swimming? any coach will tell
you you can't make chicken salad from chicken ****. its all
very well to give suggestions over this medium, but without
seeing him swim, i don't think its worth arguing over..

"Mark P" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >>Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull bouy, I
> >>can do this forever, breathing every three.
> >
> >
> > So if it's not your quads, what do you think is causing
> > the big difference in energy requirements between full-
> > stroke and pull buoy swimming?
> >
>
> Balance problems would be my guess. Either his body
> position without a buoy is so bad that his drag is
> substantially increased, or the muscles he uses to
> stabilize himself without a buoy or exhausting him.
 
L

Liz D

Guest
Mark P <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >>Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull bouy, I
> >>can do this forever, breathing every three.
> >
> >
> > So if it's not your quads, what do you think is causing
> > the big difference in energy requirements between full-
> > stroke and pull buoy swimming?
> >
>
> Balance problems would be my guess. Either his body
> position without a buoy is so bad that his drag is
> substantially increased, or the muscles he uses to
> stabilize himself without a buoy or exhausting him.

You mean muscles like maybe the quads? And other large leg
muscles (gluts and hamstrings, probably).

Sounds like the same answer to me.

Liz D
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
"Liz D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark P <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > >>Then we moved over to a big pull set with pull bouy, I
> > >>can do this forever, breathing every three.
> > >
> > >
> > > So if it's not your quads, what do you think is
> > > causing the big difference in energy requirements
> > > between full-stroke and pull buoy swimming?
> > >
> >
> > Balance problems would be my guess. Either his body
> > position without a buoy is so bad that his drag is
> > substantially increased, or the muscles he uses to
> > stabilize himself without a buoy or exhausting him.
>
> You mean muscles like maybe the quads? And other large leg
> muscles (gluts and hamstrings, probably).
>
> Sounds like the same answer to me.

Considering I have a similar issue...I agree.

I've been following this thread and the big muscle response
has piqued my interest.

I swim pretty fast considering I was never a swimmer-type.

I've just really learned to swim a proper freestyle. Any
prior swimming, years ago, was as a lifeguard who spent most
of his time swimming heads up or pulling some heavy lug
through the water.

I think that bad form and heavy weight taught me to depend
on my legs. Now, learning to swim head down and turning to
breathe, I have realized that I need to alter my (likely
6:1) kick.

Anyway, I too can swim for eternity with the pull buoy but
have a much more difficult time when kicking.

I think the theory is valid and supported by the fact that
both cycling and running require more energy than swimming.
I suspect a lot of that is because you are using those
larger muscles.

Add those larger muscles to your regular stroke and energy
is eaten up much more quickly.

At least in my uneducated opinion.

a.
 
M

Mark P

Guest
Liz D wrote:
> Mark P <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>
>>Balance problems would be my guess. Either his body
>>position without a buoy is so bad that his drag is
>>substantially increased, or the muscles he uses to
>>stabilize himself without a buoy are exhausting him.
>
>
> You mean muscles like maybe the quads? And other large leg
> muscles (gluts and hamstrings, probably).
>

Yes, the quads could be included in the larger set of
muscles that would be used for stability. The other leg
muscles and certain core muscles would also be included.

> Sounds like the same answer to me.
>

Not to me. Oh well.
 
L

Liz D

Guest
> I swim pretty fast considering I was never a swimmer-type.

Ditto (IMHO, of course)

>
> I've just really learned to swim a proper freestyle. Any
> prior swimming, years ago, was as a lifeguard who spent
> most of his time swimming heads up or pulling some heavy
> lug through the water.
>
> I think that bad form and heavy weight taught me to depend
> on my legs. Now, learning to swim head down and turning to
> breathe, I have realized that I need to alter my (likely
> 6:1) kick.
>
My kick is either a 4:1 or a 6:1 - I can't manage to count
it myself, as soon as I try to think about it the timing all
goes out. It's most likely 6:1 , I think (that's what my
coach told me), but I consciously keep the amplitude small
unless I am sprinting, for the very reasons we are
discussing here.

> Anyway, I too can swim for eternity with the pull buoy but
> have a much more difficult time when kicking.
>
> I think the theory is valid and supported by the fact that
> both cycling and running require more energy than
> swimming. I suspect a lot of that is because you are using
> those larger muscles.
>
> Add those larger muscles to your regular stroke and energy
> is eaten up much more quickly.
>
> At least in my uneducated opinion.
>
> a.

I agree that it's a somewhat puzzling phenomenon.

I can swim with much less expenditure of energy with a pull
buoy - ditto a full-leg wetsuit when I remember to think of
it like a pull buoy and not try to kick (too much - I find
it hard to stop kicking altogether). Which definitely
implcates the leg muscles in being the major energy drain.

But cycling and running surely use the large leg muscles to
a much greater degree than the small amplitude kicks in
swimming (even a "big kicker" like Ian Thorpe is only going
to be making movements of a few inches with his legs), yet
can be maintained at a higher intensity for longer than
swimming with a big, strong kick. And in running, there is
also a very small component of arm muscle usage as well.

So it would seem to be the combination of a large energy
requirement on the arms PLUS some amount of energy
requirement from the legs, however small, which fatigues the
most quickly as experienced in swimming. Or maybe because it
is by necessity a fast movement of the legs (especially if
swimming 6:1), even if relatively small, that it is
therefore more anaerobic in nature and cannot be maintained
for so long.

Any other ideas/explanations?

Liz D
 
P

Picky

Guest
Sounds like a load of rubbish to me!

How much do you think I use my quads when I am swimming??

The answer is hardly at all!

You state that the only difference between swimming with a
pull bouy and not is the fact that I use the muscles in my
legs (which unless I kick like a lunatic will never use as
much energy as my upper body) you are missing the point that
the pull bouy is a huge piece of polystyrene that holds my
legs up!! therefore it makes it easy to balance horizontally
and Im not rushing my stroke to regain my balance when my
arm is lifted (Which is also when I am breathing in).

I have been concentrating on making my arm recover a lot
slower and not rushing it which means that I dont lose my
balance and consequently get longer to suck some air down.

Seems to be a bit better at the moment, I will see how it
goes.

Cheers for the advice so far

Picky
 
D

Dory

Guest
[email protected] (Picky) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Sounds like a load of rubbish to me!
>
> How much do you think I use my quads when I am swimming??
>
> The answer is hardly at all!
>
> You state that the only difference between swimming with a
> pull bouy and not is the fact that I use the muscles in my
> legs (which unless I kick like a lunatic will never use as
> much energy as my upper body) you are missing the point
> that the pull bouy is a huge piece of polystyrene that
> holds my legs up!!

Just think of yourself as a swimming chicken. The dark meat
in those drumsticks are the twitchers that burn up a great
deal of oxygen producing nasty carbon dioxide that makes you
out of breathe.