Latex tubes , Hold air longer and puncture resistant???

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Robert Box, Sep 19, 2003.

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  1. Robert Box

    Robert Box Guest

    Looked at some tubes made by Air - B. The box describes them as holding air 10 times longer than
    regular latex tubes. They also claim to be puncture and pinch flat resistant. Supposed to be
    lightweight too. Is this a bunch of marketing hype or??? Are latex tubes normally more puncture
    resistant?

    Thanks
     
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  2. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Robert Box writes:

    > Looked at some tubes made by Air - B. The box describes them as holding air 10 times longer than
    > regular latex tubes. They also claim to be puncture and pinch flat resistant. Supposed to be
    > lightweight too. Is this a bunch of marketing hype or??? Are latex tubes normally more puncture
    > resistant?

    I'm not familiar with these tubes so I don't know what is different about them from normal latex
    tubes. Latex leaks air so fast that the normally used racing tires needed daily inflation. That
    latex is better in pinch flat protection should be obvious from the ability to stretch many times
    more than butyl rubber before it breaks. This is essentially what causes a pinch flat, the
    compression and lateral squeezing out rubber.

    On the other hand, there are a lot of bad reviews at:

    http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Tube/product_23492.shtml

    Reading these makes me doubt that these people know what is happening. They talk of blowouts, which
    to me means "BANG". If you heard the bang then the tire was off the rim. So how can I believe this
    is tube related. Another writer claims the base tape cuts the tube. This is an old saw and an excuse
    for tire lift-offs that cause long blowout slashes in tubes.

    I don't know what to make of it but I don't care for latex tubes. My rolling resistance and weight
    is just fine and I can go on a four week bicycle ride without pumping.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  3. [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Robert Box writes:
    >
    > > Looked at some tubes made by Air - B. The box describes them as holding air 10 times longer than
    > > regular latex tubes. They also claim to be puncture and pinch flat resistant. Supposed to be
    > > lightweight too. Is this a bunch of marketing hype or??? Are latex tubes normally more puncture
    > > resistant?
    >
    > I'm not familiar with these tubes so I don't know what is different about them from normal latex
    > tubes. Latex leaks air so fast that the normally used racing tires needed daily inflation. That
    > latex is better in pinch flat protection should be obvious from the ability to stretch many times
    > more than butyl rubber before it breaks. This is essentially what causes a pinch flat, the
    > compression and lateral squeezing out rubber.
    >
    > On the other hand, there are a lot of bad reviews at:
    >
    > http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Tube/product_23492.shtml
    >
    > Reading these makes me doubt that these people know what is happening. They talk of blowouts,
    > which to me means "BANG". If you heard the bang then the tire was off the rim. So how can I
    > believe this is tube related. Another writer claims the base tape cuts the tube. This is an old
    > saw and an excuse for tire lift-offs that cause long blowout slashes in tubes.
    >
    > I don't know what to make of it but I don't care for latex tubes. My rolling resistance and weight
    > is just fine and I can go on a four week bicycle ride without pumping.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected]

    ********************************

    After reading these reviews by Limeys, I say that they aren't smart enough to use them properly.

    Just my humble opinion of course. :)

    Lewis.

    *******************
     
  4. Dion Dock

    Dion Dock Guest

    Hold air 10x longer? I don't know; both of mine blew up while I was inflating them.

    Let's face it, inner tubes just aren't that exciting. Spend some time inspecting your tires for
    glass and crud before each ride if you want to reduce the number of flats.

    -Dion

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Robert Box writes:
    >
    > > Looked at some tubes made by Air - B. The box describes them as holding air 10 times longer than
    > > regular latex tubes. They also claim to be puncture and pinch flat resistant. Supposed to be
    > > lightweight too. Is this a bunch of marketing hype or??? Are latex tubes normally more puncture
    > > resistant?
    >
    > I'm not familiar with these tubes so I don't know what is different about them from normal latex
    > tubes. Latex leaks air so fast that the normally used racing tires needed daily inflation. That
    > latex is better in pinch flat protection should be obvious from the ability to stretch many times
    > more than butyl rubber before it breaks. This is essentially what causes a pinch flat, the
    > compression and lateral squeezing out rubber.
    >
    > On the other hand, there are a lot of bad reviews at:
    >
    > http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Tube/product_23492.shtml
    >
    > Reading these makes me doubt that these people know what is happening. They talk of blowouts,
    > which to me means "BANG". If you heard the bang then the tire was off the rim. So how can I
    > believe this is tube related. Another writer claims the base tape cuts the tube. This is an old
    > saw and an excuse for tire lift-offs that cause long blowout slashes in tubes.
    >
    > I don't know what to make of it but I don't care for latex tubes. My rolling resistance and weight
    > is just fine and I can go on a four week bicycle ride without pumping.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  5. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Dion Dock writes:

    > Hold air 10x longer?

    As I said, latex tubulars required daily pumping and my 700c x 25 tires make it a month without
    pumping. I call that at least 10x.

    > I don't know; both of mine blew up while I was inflating them.

    I'm interested in how that occurred. Did you hear them make a bang?

    > Let's face it, inner tubes just aren't that exciting.

    I call explosions exciting.

    > Spend some time inspecting your tires for glass and crud before each ride if you want to reduce
    > the number of flats.

    I think that is too late. If the tire isn't punctured by the time you get ready for the next ride,
    it won't happen. Flats occur in a short time after the sharp object engages the tire.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  6. Tim Cain

    Tim Cain Guest

  7. Jp

    Jp Guest

    [email protected] (Robert Box) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Looked at some tubes made by Air - B. The box describes them as holding air 10 times longer than
    > regular latex tubes. They also claim to be puncture and pinch flat resistant. Supposed to be
    > lightweight too. Is this a bunch of marketing hype or??? Are latex tubes normally more puncture
    > resistant?

    Based on my experience with tubular tires, I would say yes, definitely, except for one thing: the
    better tires have latex tubes, so maybe it's just that the better tires are more puncture resistant.

    JP
     
  8. John Carrier

    John Carrier Guest

    I have a fair amount of experience with tubies using both butyl (Contis) and latex (Vittorias) inner
    tubes. The latex leaked air rapidly ... it would be enough to notice (barely) after a long ride. Not
    so with the butyl ... their leakage was less in 48 hours than the latex in 3-4.

    I had problems with latex durability. I baby my tires, and rarely get road hazard flats. The latex
    tubes almost invariably failed adjacent to the valve stem (where it's nearly impossible to patch). I
    speculate that the repeated stress of pushing the pump fitting on the presta stem eventually led to
    the failures ... it sure wasn't something I road over when the failure zone is under the rim.

    That said, the latex tires seemed to have a slightly more compliant ride. But I got frustrated by
    the cost (now around $80 each) to replace a tire that had plenty of tread but I couldn't
    successfully repair. (That may be an indictment of my repair technique ... but I've never succeeded
    with these tires.)

    R / John

    "JP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Robert Box) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Looked at some tubes made by Air - B. The box describes them as holding air 10 times longer than
    > > regular latex tubes. They also claim to be puncture and pinch flat resistant. Supposed to be
    > > lightweight too. Is this a bunch of marketing hype or??? Are latex tubes normally more puncture
    > > resistant?
    >
    > Based on my experience with tubular tires, I would say yes, definitely, except for one thing: the
    > better tires have latex tubes, so maybe it's just that the better tires are more puncture
    > resistant.
    >
    > JP
     
  9. Paul Jones

    Paul Jones Guest

    I had one go `BANG" .

    Left an inch long gash in a Conti Grand Prix tyre - which was close to being new (used only 2-3
    times). The tyre did not come off the rim

    Is it safe to say I can blame the tube? It is not only only time one has gone `BANG', so I do not
    use them any more

    Paul

    [email protected] wrote:

    > Robert Box writes:
    >
    > > Looked at some tubes made by Air - B. The box describes them as holding air 10 times longer than
    > > regular latex tubes. They also claim to be puncture and pinch flat resistant. Supposed to be
    > > lightweight too. Is this a bunch of marketing hype or??? Are latex tubes normally more puncture
    > > resistant?
    >
    > I'm not familiar with these tubes so I don't know what is different about them from normal latex
    > tubes. Latex leaks air so fast that the normally used racing tires needed daily inflation. That
    > latex is better in pinch flat protection should be obvious from the ability to stretch many times
    > more than butyl rubber before it breaks. This is essentially what causes a pinch flat, the
    > compression and lateral squeezing out rubber.
    >
    > On the other hand, there are a lot of bad reviews at:
    >
    > http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Tube/product_23492.shtml
    >
    > Reading these makes me doubt that these people know what is happening. They talk of blowouts,
    > which to me means "BANG". If you heard the bang then the tire was off the rim. So how can I
    > believe this is tube related. Another writer claims the base tape cuts the tube. This is an old
    > saw and an excuse for tire lift-offs that cause long blowout slashes in tubes.
    >
    > I don't know what to make of it but I don't care for latex tubes. My rolling resistance and weight
    > is just fine and I can go on a four week bicycle ride without pumping.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  10. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Paul Jones writes:

    > I had one go `BANG".

    > Left an inch long gash in a Conti Grand Prix tyre - which was close to being new (used only 2-3
    > times). The tyre did not come off the rim

    If you heard the bang, the tire was off the rim. There is no way around that. That the tire fell
    back into place is also self evident.

    > Is it safe to say I can blame the tube? It is not only only time one has gone `BANG', so I do not
    > use them any more

    This comes up so often that there is an FAQ item about just that:

    http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.4.html

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  11. Bill K.

    Bill K. Guest

    [email protected] (Robert Box) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Looked at some tubes made by Air - B. The box describes them as holding air 10 times longer than
    > regular latex tubes. They also claim to be puncture and pinch flat resistant. Supposed to be
    > lightweight too. Is this a bunch of marketing hype or??? Are latex tubes normally more puncture
    > resistant?
    >
    > Thanks

    Some latex tubes are advertised as having a thin butyl layer on the inside. There isn't any way that
    this would cause the tube to hold air 10 times longer than standard latex tubes. Latex tubes might
    help prevent some pinch flats, but they won't protect a tire going flat from a puncture. Latex tubes
    are very hard to install without ruining. You have to be extremely careful not to pinch the tube in
    the bead when installing. Every latex tube that I have ever installed in a clincher, has failed at
    the valve. On the other hand, I've never had a problem with a latex tubed tubular.
     
  12. Jp

    Jp Guest

    "John Carrier" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > I have a fair amount of experience with tubies using both butyl (Contis) and latex (Vittorias)
    > inner tubes. The latex leaked air rapidly ... it would be enough to notice (barely) after a long
    > ride. Not so with the butyl ... their leakage was less in 48 hours than the latex in 3-4.
    >
    > I had problems with latex durability. I baby my tires, and rarely get road hazard flats. The latex
    > tubes almost invariably failed adjacent to the valve stem (where it's nearly impossible to patch).
    > I speculate that the repeated stress of pushing the pump fitting on the presta stem eventually led
    > to the failures ... it sure wasn't something I road over when the failure zone is under the rim.

    I think that as latex tubulars get older they leak more. I read somewhere that you should let the
    air out of them after your ride because leaving them at pressure makes them more porous. I have seen
    the effect where a latex tubular does get to the point where it will hardly last a ride but I never
    deflated my tires because of it. I don't think a new latex tubular should have a noticeable leakage
    after four hours.

    I have never had a leak near the valve stem as you describe it.

    JP
     
  13. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    JP writes anonymously as he probably should:

    >> I have a fair amount of experience with tubies using both butyl (Contis) and latex (Vittorias)
    >> inner tubes. The latex leaked air rapidly ... it would be enough to notice (barely) after a long
    >> ride. Not so with the butyl ... their leakage was less in 48 hours than the latex in 3-4.

    >> I had problems with latex durability. I baby my tires, and rarely get road hazard flats. The
    >> latex tubes almost invariably failed adjacent to the valve stem (where it's nearly impossible to
    >> patch). I speculate that the repeated stress of pushing the pump fitting on the Presta stem
    >> eventually led to the failures ... it sure wasn't something I road over when the failure zone is
    >> under the rim.

    > I think that as latex tubulars get older they leak more. I read somewhere that you should let the
    > air out of them after your ride because leaving them at pressure makes them more porous.

    "I read somewhere" is a seemingly safe way to to pass on myth and lore, which this is. What
    happens is that latex tubes lose their elasticity with exposure to oxygen and especially ozone.
    They pinch flat more easily in that state but do not leak faster. They also tear easily when
    trying to patch them.

    http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.18.html

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    I use to run air-b tubes, but I got tired of pumping them up all the time.

    >Some latex tubes are advertised as having a thin butyl layer on the inside. There isn't any way
    >that this would cause the tube to hold air 10 times longer than standard latex tubes.

    They don't hold air 10 times longer. Maybe twice as long, but not much more than that. I could go
    no more than 2 days without pumping them back up to full pressure. They would go from 120psi to 90
    in two days.

    >Latex tubes might help prevent some pinch flats, but they won't protect a tire going flat from a
    >puncture.

    They do leak much, much slower than butyl if the puncture is very small. I had a tube that was
    punctured for a few weeks. It would lose air so slowly that I just thought the butyl layer was not
    working any more. When I finally pulled the tube to check it, it still took effort to find the leak.
    I had to pump up the tube and stretch it under water to see the tiny leak.

    >Latex tubes are very hard to install without ruining. You have to be extremely careful not to pinch
    >the tube in the bead when installing.

    No more so than a butyl tube.

    >Every latex tube that I have ever installed in a clincher, has failed at the valve. On the other
    >hand, I've never had a problem with a latex tubed tubular.

    I never had a latex tube go bad at the valve. I ran these for a couple of years and then gave up on
    them because I had to pump them up so often.
    -----------------
    Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
     
  15. Jp

    Jp Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > JP writes anonymously as he probably should:
    >
    > >> I have a fair amount of experience with tubies using both butyl (Contis) and latex (Vittorias)
    > >> inner tubes. The latex leaked air rapidly ... it would be enough to notice (barely) after a
    > >> long ride. Not so with the butyl ... their leakage was less in 48 hours than the latex in 3-4.
    >
    > >> I had problems with latex durability. I baby my tires, and rarely get road hazard flats. The
    > >> latex tubes almost invariably failed adjacent to the valve stem (where it's nearly impossible
    > >> to patch). I speculate that the repeated stress of pushing the pump fitting on the Presta stem
    > >> eventually led to the failures ... it sure wasn't something I road over when the failure zone
    > >> is under the rim.
    >
    > > I think that as latex tubulars get older they leak more. I read somewhere that you should let
    > > the air out of them after your ride because leaving them at pressure makes them more porous.
    >
    > "I read somewhere" is a seemingly safe way to to pass on myth and lore, which this is. What
    > happens is that latex tubes lose their elasticity with exposure to oxygen and especially ozone.
    > They pinch flat more easily in that state but do not leak faster. They also tear easily when
    > trying to patch them.

    Myth or not, I have definitely observed with my own tubular tires that their ability to hold air
    decreases with age. I had a pair of Clement Criterium Setas that lasted a long time but eventually
    just would not hold air long enough for more than a short ride. They may have had slow leaks but the
    development over the course of months if not years would seem to indicate that a microscopic
    puncture does not fully explain the effect. I am not sure what evidence you have to support your
    claim beyond the FAQ you reference (which does not address *at all* latex tubes or whether their
    porosity increases with age), but it does seem to me that given that latex tubes are porous when new
    (a known fact) and that they get brittle with age (according to you), that the combination of
    brittleness and inherent porosity would tend to make them leak faster as they age. As to whether
    deflating them helps or not, I only know what I read which was probably Bicycling magazine at least
    two decades ago, but since I never bothered, I am relieved to know that it was not the cause of the
    ultimate demise of my Clements, which were pretty special tires.

    JP
     
  16. [email protected] wrote in message news:<4%[email protected]>...
    > Paul Jones writes:
    >
    > > I had one go `BANG".
    >
    > > Left an inch long gash in a Conti Grand Prix tyre - which was close to being new (used only 2-3
    > > times). The tyre did not come off the rim
    >
    > If you heard the bang, the tire was off the rim. There is no way around that. That the tire fell
    > back into place is also self evident.
    >
    > > Is it safe to say I can blame the tube? It is not only only time one has gone `BANG', so I do
    > > not use them any more
    >
    > This comes up so often that there is an FAQ item about just that:
    >
    > http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.4.html
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected]

    Nice FAQ. But, the poster said there was a gash in the tire afterward. Sounds to me like the tire
    got a gash, the inner tube then blew out through the gash.

    The point is that the inner tube has no real strength by itself, and is not expected to. The tire
    casing is supposed to contain it. Any failure of the tire, such as a gash, weak spot, hole, or
    separation from the rim, will allow the inner tube to blow out through the gap. A tube may leak,
    causing a flat, without any flaw in the tire, but then you will have a nice quiet flat, and an
    undamaged tire. A failure of the tube cannot damage the tire. At least not that I've seen.
     
  17. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    JP writes anonymously:

    >>> I think that as latex tubulars get older they leak more. I read somewhere that you should let
    >>> the air out of them after your ride because leaving them at pressure makes them more porous.

    >> "I read somewhere" is a seemingly safe way to to pass on myth and lore, which this is. What
    >> happens is that latex tubes lose their elasticity with exposure to oxygen and especially ozone.
    >> They pinch flat more easily in that state but do not leak faster. They also tear easily when
    >> trying to patch them.

    > Myth or not, I have definitely observed with my own tubular tires that their ability to hold air
    > decreases with age. I had a pair of Clement Criterium Setas that lasted a long time but eventually
    > just would not hold air long enough for more than a short ride. They may have had slow leaks but
    > the development over the course of months if not years would seem to indicate that a microscopic
    > puncture does not fully explain the effect.

    I suspect you had a fine puncture. What did you find when you opened the tire. How did the tube
    look? Do you patch tubulars and how?

    I have latex tubes from Italian Clement tubulars from the 1970's that are still like new, elastic
    and airtight as ever. They have been in an unsealed plastic bag all these years waiting for someone
    who needed to re-tube a tire as was often done in the days when there were no high performance
    clinchers.

    > I am not sure what evidence you have to support your claim beyond the FAQ you reference (which
    > does not address *at all* latex tubes or whether their porosity increases with age), but it does
    > seem to me that given that latex tubes are porous when new (a known fact) and that they get
    > brittle with age (according to you), that the combination of brittleness and inherent porosity
    > would tend to make them leak faster as they age.

    Butyl tubes are also "porous", although to a lesser degree than latex. This does not mean they
    disintegrate with age or get leakier. That latex is damaged by oxygen and ozone is known but that
    this degrades air retention has not been shown, only that the rubber tears easily and that this is
    the mode of failure.

    > As to whether deflating them helps or not, I only know what I read which was probably Bicycling
    > magazine at least two decades ago, but since I never bothered, I am relieved to know that it was
    > not the cause of the ultimate demise of my Clements, which were pretty special tires.

    Well how about th8inking for yourself on that issue. What do you believe deflating tubulars does? On
    the one hand you are certain of what you read while deferring to unnamed authority for its validity.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected]
     
  18. Jp

    Jp Guest

    [email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > JP writes anonymously:
    >
    > >>> I think that as latex tubulars get older they leak more. I read somewhere that you should let
    > >>> the air out of them after your ride because leaving them at pressure makes them more porous.
    >
    > >> "I read somewhere" is a seemingly safe way to to pass on myth and lore, which this is. What
    > >> happens is that latex tubes lose their elasticity with exposure to oxygen and especially ozone.
    > >> They pinch flat more easily in that state but do not leak faster. They also tear easily when
    > >> trying to patch them.
    >
    > > Myth or not, I have definitely observed with my own tubular tires that their ability to hold air
    > > decreases with age. I had a pair of Clement Criterium Setas that lasted a long time but
    > > eventually just would not hold air long enough for more than a short ride. They may have had
    > > slow leaks but the development over the course of months if not years would seem to indicate
    > > that a microscopic puncture does not fully explain the effect.
    >
    > I suspect you had a fine puncture.

    Maybe, but then you have to ignore what I said: it was a pair and they progressively lost their
    ability to hold air.

    > What did you find when you opened the tire. How did the tube look?

    I don't remember. I think I tried to find a leak, couldn't, and threw them away.

    > Do you patch tubulars and how?

    Using a Velox kit, for almost 30 years now. However, I read something recently about patching
    latex tubes with liquid latex. I don't know about that, but at a time and place where no one used
    butyl tube sewups (not sure they existed in the mid-70s- I never saw one then), the Velox kit was
    the way to do it.

    > I have latex tubes from Italian Clement tubulars from the 1970's that are still like new, elastic
    > and airtight as ever. They have been in an unsealed plastic bag all these years waiting for
    > someone who needed to re-tube a tire as was often done in the days when there were no high
    > performance clinchers.

    Ah ha! You just presented evidence that there is something about using latex tubes that causes them
    to deteriorate. Do repeated pressurization cycles cause them to loose their elasticity? Does
    inflation cause microscopic tears that are exacerbated by loss of elasticity? Do I know? NO. Do you
    know? Probably not, either.

    > > I am not sure what evidence you have to support your claim beyond the FAQ you reference (which
    > > does not address *at all* latex tubes or whether their porosity increases with age), but it does
    > > seem to me that given that latex tubes are porous when new (a known fact) and that they get
    > > brittle with age (according to you), that the combination of brittleness and inherent porosity
    > > would tend to make them leak faster as they age.
    >
    > Butyl tubes are also "porous", although to a lesser degree than latex.

    Well, of course they are.

    > This does not mean they disintegrate with age or get leakier. That latex is damaged by oxygen and
    > ozone is known but that this degrades air retention has not been shown,

    One way or the other.

    > only that the rubber tears easily and that this is the mode of failure.

    From this it is reasonable to hypothesize microscopic tearing as a result of age and inflation, or
    even from inflation alone. It is more of a "stretch" to hypothesize that deflating the tire when not
    used would slow this effect. It might even make it worse.

    > > As to whether deflating them helps or not, I only know what I read which was probably Bicycling
    > > magazine at least two decades ago, but since I never bothered, I am relieved to know that it was
    > > not the cause of the ultimate demise of my Clements, which were pretty special tires.
    >
    > Well how about th8inking for yourself on that issue. What do you believe deflating tubulars does?

    See above. I have not been talking about deflating tubulars, although you have. I have been talking
    about deflating latex tubes. What I think is that neither you nor I *knows* whether deflating latex
    tubes helps them hold air better over the long run. In the absence of any knowledge it is reasonable
    to defer to a generally accepted source of expertise; however, I did not bother, most likely because
    tubulars don't generally last me long enough to worry about them eventually no longer holding air.
    Interesting, though, I am now riding a 15 year old Clement Criterium that was first used 15 years
    ago which I expected to blow up the first time I rode it. It has lasted a few thousand miles with no
    flats while I have had about half a dozen flats on my other wheel. It still holds air quite well-
    certainly no noticeable loss over a 2.5 hour ride. So, even mounted on a wheel, but not subject to
    pressurization cycles or extended periods of inflation the tire seems to me to be in pretty good
    shape. My conclusion based on my personal experience is that mere use of latex tubed tubular tires
    seems to contribute to their degradation, irrespective of punctures, but I also am willing to accept
    evidence to the contrary. Do you have any?

    > On the one hand you are certain of what you read while deferring to unnamed authority for its
    > validity.

    On the contrary, I am certain only of my own experience. I don't know whether deflation really helps
    preserve the integrity of latex tubulars, and neither do you.

    JP
     
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