Lawyers lips

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Callistus Valerius, Mar 11, 2005.

  1. I discovered on my Specialized road bike, when my rear wheel came loose,
    that it didn't have any lawyers lips. I thought these were mandatory on
    bikes.
     
    Tags:


  2. Josh McClure

    Josh McClure Guest

    Not on the rear...

    Are you planning on suing?

    Josh McClure
    Durst Cycles
     
  3. > Not on the rear...
    >
    > Are you planning on suing?
    >
    > Josh McClure
    > Durst Cycles
    >


    No. none on the front either. The drop out seems kind of shallow. You
    really have to tighten it. Does that seem normal?

    I'd rather have the lawyers lips on my bike, and not in the back offices
    of Specialized.
     
  4. Callistus Valerius wrote:

    > I discovered on my Specialized road bike, when my rear wheel came

    loose,
    > that it didn't have any lawyers lips. I thought these were mandatory

    on
    > bikes.

    ....
    > none on the front either. The drop out seems kind of shallow. You
    > really have to tighten it. Does that seem normal?


    First, how old is the bike? There was a blessed time when lawyers lips
    did not exist.

    Second, if by "kind of shallow" you mean the axle slot's depth, I just
    measured one fork with lawyer lips and one without. The pre-lip fork
    had an axle slot about 0.45" deep; the one with the lips, 0.75" deep.
    The difference is for the lips to reach down below the quick release
    parts.

    Third, sometimes when you "really have to tighten it" it means the QR
    mechanism needs disassembly and/or lubrication.

    I'm assuming, of course, that you know how to use a quick release -
    that it's not a wing nut!
    http://www.bicyclinglife.com/HowTo/UseAQuickRelease.htm

    > I'd rather have the lawyers lips on my bike, and not in the back

    offices
    > of Specialized.


    I'd rather not have them. They protect people who haven't bothered to
    learn to work the lever, but they mean we all have to re-adjust the
    front QR each time we use it. And it makes using my roof rack a pain.

    I grind 'em off.
     
  5. Jim Flom

    Jim Flom Guest

    "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >> Not on the rear...
    >>
    >> Are you planning on suing?
    >>
    >> Josh McClure
    >> Durst Cycles
    >>

    >
    > No. none on the front either. The drop out seems kind of shallow. You
    > really have to tighten it. Does that seem normal?
    >
    > I'd rather have the lawyers lips on my bike, and not in the back
    > offices
    > of Specialized.


    Go back to rbr where you belong.

    JF
     
  6. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    > ....
    > I'd rather not have them [lawyers lips]. They protect people who haven't bothered to
    > learn to work the lever, but they mean we all have to re-adjust the
    > front QR each time we use it. And it makes using my roof rack a pain.
    >
    > I grind 'em off.


    It took me less than a minute on each side with a Dremel tool to remove
    the lips from a Cro-Moly fork.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Earth
     
  7. On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:24:26 GMT, Callistus Valerius wrote:

    > I discovered on my Specialized road bike, when my rear wheel came loose,
    > that it didn't have any lawyers lips. I thought these were mandatory on
    > bikes.


    Giant's 2003 alloy frame had them at the back, but their 2004 TCR carbon
    frame doesn't. Both have them at the front, though.

    --
    bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo
     
  8. in kifer's article-lip's comes before "getting the tube out."
     
  9. John Everett

    John Everett Guest

    On 11 Mar 2005 18:57:36 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

    >
    >I'd rather not have them. They protect people who haven't bothered to
    >learn to work the lever, but they mean we all have to re-adjust the
    >front QR each time we use it. And it makes using my roof rack a pain.


    I'd rather not have them either, and I've ground them off each of my
    bikes that originally had them. However even if it makes using a roof
    rack a pain there are benefits.

    Last summer my girlfriend and I were out in Colorado on a
    hiking/backpacking/cycling trip. We had our touring bikes on our roof
    rack. While driving into Rocky Mountain National Park's Wild Basin
    Ranger Station (on a horrible dirt road) Julie's Trek 520 (and older
    model that never had Lawyer Lips), which had made it from Illinois,
    fell off the rack. It appeared the wobbling down the dirt track had
    worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp. Only the bike bra kept the
    bike still attached to the car.

    Fortunately no damage was done, so I REALLY tightened down the rack's
    (GM re-branded Thule) skewer mechanism and proceeded. Meanwhile my
    Fuji Touring Series with LLs ground down to vestigial appendages was
    just fine.

    Things were fine for the next week or so, until we'd just completed a
    ride on the Glenwood Canyon Bike Trail. I was getting tired of
    fighting with the tightness of the rack's fork clamp, so before we
    left the Hanging Lake parking area, I loosened the clamp slightly,
    making it about as tight as the clamp on my bike. Big mistake!

    Traveling east on I-70 somewhere around Eagle, suddenly cars started
    backing away from us and flashing their headlights. Julie looked over
    from the passenger's seat and saw her bike hanging perpendicular to
    the car. Once again the bike bra had saved the day, but this time her
    left front dropout was bent. We pulled over and threw the bike into
    the back of the SUV. She's never put that bike on the roof rack again.

    >I grind 'em off.


    So here's a dilemma. We picked up Julie's newest bike (Trek 1500 WSD)
    just Thursday. I was working on it Friday (installing bottle cages, a
    new cyclocomputer, removing excess reflectors, etc.) and was very
    tempted to attack the LLs, a temptation I've thus far resisted. As
    much as I hate them, I'm pretty sure Julie might be concerned if
    they're removed. My thinking is now running toward grinding them down
    just enough so that a properly adjusted skewer can be removed, but
    leaving just enough material so that the bike will never be able to
    work its way out of a roof rack. :-|


    jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3
     
  10. Per John Everett:
    > It appeared the wobbling down the dirt track had
    >worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp.


    Twice I've found my front wheel loose enough that the only holding it in place
    was the lawyer lips.

    Don't know for sure how it got that way, but the only thing I can think of is
    vibration from extended time on the car's bike rack.

    Since the last time, I've been trying to train myself to rear the bike up, grab
    the front wheel, and shake it a little every time I start to ride.
    --
    PeteCresswell
     
  11. m-gineering

    m-gineering Guest

    "(Pete Cresswell)" wrote:
    >
    > Per John Everett:
    > > It appeared the wobbling down the dirt track had
    > >worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp.

    >
    > Twice I've found my front wheel loose enough that the only holding it in place
    > was the lawyer lips.
    >
    > Don't know for sure how it got that way, but the only thing I can think of is
    > vibration from extended time on the car's bike rack.
    >
    > Since the last time, I've been trying to train myself to rear the bike up, grab
    > the front wheel, and shake it a little every time I start to ride.
    > --
    > PeteCresswell


    try lubricating the skewer mechanism!
    --
    ---
    Marten Gerritsen

    INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
    www.m-gineering.nl
     
  12. Per m-gineering:
    >try lubricating the skewer mechanism!


    I've heard a similar concept when people say that plenty of grease makes for an
    effective alternative to LocTite.

    Seems counter-intuitive.

    I don't doubt it...just can't understand it...

    Can somebody explain?
    --
    PeteCresswell
     
  13. On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:31:49 -0500, "(Pete Cresswell)"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Per m-gineering:
    >>try lubricating the skewer mechanism!

    >
    >I've heard a similar concept when people say that plenty of grease makes for an
    >effective alternative to LocTite.
    >
    >Seems counter-intuitive.
    >
    >I don't doubt it...just can't understand it...
    >
    >Can somebody explain?


    Dear Pete,

    Here's Sheldon's explanation:

    "Dry threads are generally a bad idea, because they generate
    too much friction when you tighten them. This prevents the
    threads from screwing as tight as they should for a given
    amount of torque, because so much of the torque is wasted
    overcoming the friction of the dry threads."

    http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q...en&lr=&[email protected]

    Carl Fogel
     
  14. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    John Everett <[email protected]> writes:

    > Last summer my girlfriend and I were out in Colorado on a
    > hiking/backpacking/cycling trip. We had our touring bikes on our
    > roof rack. While driving into Rocky Mountain National Park's Wild
    > Basin Ranger Station (on a horrible dirt road) Julie's Trek 520 (and
    > older model that never had Lawyer Lips), which had made it from
    > Illinois, fell off the rack. It appeared the wobbling down the dirt
    > track had worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp. Only the bike
    > bra kept the bike still attached to the car.


    From: "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]>

    > Twice I've found my front wheel loose enough that the only holding
    > it in place was the lawyer lips.
    >
    > Don't know for sure how it got that way, but the only thing I can
    > think of is vibration from extended time on the car's bike rack.


    Now, wait a minute. What about all those disk brake threads that
    claim that a QR can't vibrate loose? That a properly used skewer
    cannot come loose? If those guys are right, then obviously you two
    are inept. Or, you're right and the other people making those claims
    in those threads must be wrong.

    Nah, there couldn't possibly be any validity to Annan's claims.
    Perish the thought. The bike industry would never sell products with
    design flaws in them, because the bike industry is run by omniscient
    saints. What was I thinking?
     
  15. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:46:43 -0500, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Per John Everett:
    >> It appeared the wobbling down the dirt track had
    >>worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp.

    >
    >Twice I've found my front wheel loose enough that the only holding it in place
    >was the lawyer lips.
    >
    >Don't know for sure how it got that way, but the only thing I can think of is
    >vibration from extended time on the car's bike rack.
    >
    >Since the last time, I've been trying to train myself to rear the bike up, grab
    >the front wheel, and shake it a little every time I start to ride.


    I've learned to do a pre-flight for stuff like that every ride. Now mostly it's
    done without adding any time to what it already takes to wheel it around and get
    on the thing.

    Ron
     
  16. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:31:49 -0500, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Per m-gineering:
    >>try lubricating the skewer mechanism!

    >
    >I've heard a similar concept when people say that plenty of grease makes for an
    >effective alternative to LocTite.
    >
    >Seems counter-intuitive.
    >
    >I don't doubt it...just can't understand it...
    >
    >Can somebody explain?


    Bolts and skewers work by stretch. By stretching the thing it creates tension
    that keeps things in place and tight. Friction either of the threads of a bolt
    or the cam mechanism in the QR causes the tightening force to be dissipated by
    something other than stretching the fastener.

    Ron
     
  17. Per Tim McNamara:
    >Now, wait a minute. What about all those disk brake threads that
    >claim that a QR can't vibrate loose? That a properly used skewer
    >cannot come loose? If those guys are right, then obviously you two
    >are inept. Or, you're right and the other people making those claims


    I wouldn't rule RCI on my part - i.e. *maybe* I'd changed a flat or something
    and neglected to tighten up the skewer.

    Technically possible...but, IMHO, unlikely.
    --
    PeteCresswell
     
  18. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Callistus Valerius wrote:

    > I discovered on my Specialized road bike, when my rear wheel came loose,
    > that it didn't have any lawyers lips. I thought these were mandatory on
    > bikes.
    >
    >

    Not specifically mandated, only some type of secondary
    retention device - for the front. It can be a clip or a lip
    or one of dozens of different designs - so long as the
    skewer isn't the sole device.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  19. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > Per m-gineering:
    >>try lubricating the skewer mechanism!


    (Pete Cresswell) wrote:
    > I've heard a similar concept when people say that plenty of grease makes for an
    > effective alternative to LocTite.
    > Seems counter-intuitive.
    > I don't doubt it...just can't understand it...
    > Can somebody explain?


    The skewer mechanism wants to translate the lever's motion
    in to a lateral pull through the hub with its cam. Like
    other simple machines, lubrication noticeably gives more of
    that pull for a given input. Try it! Close your skewer as
    you normally do, and then again with lubricated cam faces.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
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