Learning to climb better...

[Eric Murray]

In article <[email protected]>, Tim Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>I wonder sometimes if weight is all that matters.

Nope. Physiological climbing ability is V02max/weight. Obviously for a given individual, since
V02max doesn't change much, the resulting number is higher if he or she is lighter.

Lance Armstrong, even the lighter post-cancer model, is still a bit heavy for a pure climber at
156lbs. But he's got a V02max that's just off the scale.

> Whenever I have been able to look at world-class stage-racing cyclists up-close (not on TV) I have
> been amazed at how compact they are. Not just slim, or low-weight, but really, really compact.
> Lots of muscle and power in a very aerodynamic shape.

Being aero doesn't affect climbing. Those guys look areo because they don't have much body fat and
unlike athletes in other sports (or even cycling sprinters) their muscles are not bulky. One thing I
have noticed recently is that a lot of top riders have fairly deep chests for their size...
presumeably they have larger lungs than average.

>It would be interesting to be able to compare great, but non hill-climbing, cyclists like Mario
>Cipollini or Sean Kelly, with the likes of Bernald Hinault, Greg Lemond, Laurent Fignon, and even
>Indurain (who, though I have only seen him on TV, did not look all that "compact"). (I don't
>mention recent cyclists, because I haven't seen them in person. Don't get around much anymore...)

Indurain was a pretty big guy for a cyclist. I'd bet his V02max was also very high.

Mario and Kelly have both won races that had hills that normal cyclists would consider to be pretty
tough. They just couldn't quite hang with the climbers on really long climbs.

Eric

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Turbo Fahel writes:

> I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.

> I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I struggle on the hills. What can I do
> to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???

Not knowing anything more specific about your problem, I ask how do you classify your physique
(weight- over or under), how much do you ride per week and what sort of hills are under
consideration? At your age you should be able to get into good bicycling aerobic and muscular
condition in a couple of months if you put in at least 200mi per week of riding aggressively over
hilly terrain.

To assess your climbing improvement, find a fairly constant two+ mile grade and measure your ET.
Actually, riding steadily in a larger gear will show the difference without timing. You'll feel how
easily you keep a steady rate. All this, under the assumption that you have legs and knees that
allow strong climbing. If you haven't ridden a bicycle for many years, you may have knee problems,
because the average person does not do loaded knee bends greater than the six inch rise of stairs.
Bicycles have more than twice that and therein lies a problem.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Phil Holman]

"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Turbo.Fahel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.
>
> Well then, it's too late for the best answer - choosing your parents carefully.
>
> >I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I
struggle on
> >the hills.
> >
> >What can I do to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???
>
> Strength training will help, but it can be hard to work it into a full riding schedule without
> hurting your actual riding (it IS a great winter training strategy though).

Andy Coggan has gone to a lot of trouble to dispel this one and I hate to see that effort wasted.
Strength by definition is a measure of the force exerted by a muscle. Those excelling in that
category typically are at the back of the field in a climb while the puny toothpicks are at the
front. I believe it comes down to power to weight ratio assuming optium gear selection, technique
and motivation etc. are all equal.

Phil Holman

 

[Stewart Fleming]

"Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee" wrote:

> >The Year Bjarne Rees won the tour he was 10 lb lighter than the previous
> year, and Big Mig was overweight.

The year Riis won the Tour, he had a haematocrit of 60%+.

 

[Nick Kew]

In article <[email protected]>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of "Si Davies" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "it's not fair - you always choose a route that takes in hills" he whines, "you know i can't do
> hills like you can". "ah", I answer " that's because i always choose the hilly routes"

Hey, I routinely choose hilly routes[1], and I'm exceeding slow on them!

[1] In fact I do more than that: I choose to live in hilly areas.

--
Axis of Evil: Whose economy needs ever more wars? Arms Exports $bn: USA 14.2, UK 5.1, vs France 1.5,
Germany 0.8 (The Economist, July 2002)

 

[Sky Fly]

"Turbo.Fahel" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.
>
> I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I struggle on the hills.
>
> What can I do to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???

Good advice so far, but don't forget the power of the mind. It's always going to be painful climbing
uphill, so learn to meditate while riding up. Concentrate on the texture of the road, the whirr of
your wheels, the slow turn of your cranks... anything to distract your mind from the effort that you
are taking to climb (of course, this assumes that you are already taking sensible precautions not to
damage your knees/muscles).

Happy climbing,

--
Akin

aknak at aksoto dot idps dot co dot uk

 

[Bosaci]

"Phil Holman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Turbo.Fahel" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.
> >
> > Well then, it's too late for the best answer - choosing your parents carefully.
> >
> > >I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I
> struggle on
> > >the hills.
> > >
> > >What can I do to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???
> >
> > Strength training will help, but it can be hard to work it into a full riding schedule without
> > hurting your actual riding (it IS a great winter training strategy though).
>
> Andy Coggan has gone to a lot of trouble to dispel this one and I hate to see that effort wasted.

> Strength by definition is a measure of the force exerted by a muscle. Those excelling in that
> category typically are at the back of the field in a climb while the puny toothpicks are at
> the front.

Not true! The very light weight guys only excell at extremely difficult climbs and not even there if
they haven't put in the base miles. They may be light but most are strong and muscular.

By calling light weight guys "puny toothpicks" you are comparing your "fatness" to guys in really
good shape.

You are probably a poor climber and racer.

>I believe it comes down to power to weight ratio assuming optium gear selection, technique and
>motivation etc. are all equal.

********! What about conditioning?

 

[Oldphart]

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:
> It's a simple thing, Tim
>
> Power/weight ratio,. On the flat it's just power. Big Mig had massive power and so he could
> compete weighing 12 3.

That's 12 Stone 3 _______________? or in American I believe he was about 6'1" 170 pounds in his
prime.... Big boy for an all around cyclist.....

>Roche and Delgado were about 10 7. Don't know about Kelly.

I'm willing to bet these two were 5' and change and in the 140 pound class kinda like Roberto
Heras.... He's tiny! But generates huge amounts of power.

 

[Oldphart]

>
> Indurain was a pretty big guy for a cyclist. I'd bet his V02max was also very high.
>

Phyiology studies I remember reading of him in his prime said his VO2max was phenominal..... and he
generated ungoddly amounts of power. I can't quote em because I don't have em any more, that was
llike 10 years and almost as many moves ago, but I'm sure they were in Velonews at the time.

>
> Eric

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Turbo.Fahel" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.
>
> I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I struggle on the hills.
>
> What can I do to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???

Climb more hills!

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>, Tim Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

> It would be interesting to be able to compare great, but non hill-climbing, cyclists like Mario
> Cipollini or Sean Kelly, with the likes of Bernald Hinault, Greg Lemond, Laurent Fignon, and even
> Indurain (who, though I have only seen him on TV, did not look all that "compact").

Considering that Kelly won a mountain stage in the Tour de France (against Hinault among others), a
Vuelta a Espana and almost another Vuelta (dropping out on the penultimate day because of a saddle
sore that had been operated on- without anasthetic- and the stitches came undone), and two Tours of
Switzerland I don't think it's fair to say he couldn't climb. I rode once with Kelly on one of his
American publicity tours- while he was then retired he still looked very compact indeed and had no
trouble covering 40 km in a hour.

 

[Oldphart]

well ladeedaa I choose hilly routes and I choose to live at 6500 ft. I still suck....... :|

Nick Kew wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, one of infinite monkeys at the
> keyboard of "Si Davies" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>"it's not fair - you always choose a route that takes in hills" he whines, "you know i can't do
>>hills like you can". "ah", I answer " that's because i always choose the hilly routes"
>
>
> Hey, I routinely choose hilly routes[1], and I'm exceeding slow on them!
>
> [1] In fact I do more than that: I choose to live in hilly areas.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Eric Murray) wrote:

> Physiological climbing ability is V02max/weight. Obviously for a given individual, since V02max
> doesn't change much, the resulting number is higher if he or she is lighter.
>
> Lance Armstrong, even the lighter post-cancer model, is still a bit heavy for a pure climber at
> 156lbs. But he's got a V02max that's just off the scale.

> One thing I have noticed recently is that a lot of top riders have fairly deep chests for their
> size... presumeably they have larger lungs than average.

> Indurain was a pretty big guy for a cyclist. I'd bet his V02max was also very high.

According to the media of the day, 88 ml/kg/min, with 8 liter lung capacity. Lemond's was above 90
ml/kg/min when tested at Valparaiso Indiana in 1992 or thereabouts- and that was missing the bottom
quarter of one lung. He posted the highest numbers the exercise physiologists there had ever seen.

I've never seen actual numbers for Armstrong.

 

[Jobst Brandt]

So what's all this talk of professional racers, and how many of them contributors have interviewed
or ridden with? The question is from an average recreational rider who wants to know how to get in
shape for hills. Therefore, all this talk is just so much posturing.

First, and probably most important, is to work off extra fat through riding and diet, if it is
there. The second is to climb hills so that the rider is "out of breath". If that cannot be reached,
then that is the first level of exercise. Get circulation to the muscles up to that level, then work
on expanding aerobic threshold. Both of these are best done by climbing highway grades, ones that
are not over 7% and ones that are fairly constant.

Forget about professional racing. It has nothing to do with this.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[Phil Holman]

"bosaci" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:tJ3ma.434304$L1.124398@sccrnsc02...
>
> "Phil Holman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > "Turbo.Fahel" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.
> > >
> > > Well then, it's too late for the best answer - choosing your
parents
> > > carefully.
> > >
> > > >I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I
> > struggle on
> > > >the hills.
> > > >
> > > >What can I do to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???
> > >
> > > Strength training will help, but it can be hard to work it into a
full
> > > riding schedule without hurting your actual riding (it IS a great winter training strategy
> > > though).
> >
> > Andy Coggan has gone to a lot of trouble to dispel this one and I
hate
> > to see that effort wasted.
>
>
> > Strength by definition is a measure of the force exerted by a
muscle.
> > Those excelling in that category typically are at the back of the
field
> > in a climb while the puny toothpicks are at the front.
>
> Not true! The very light weight guys only excell at extremely
difficult
> climbs and not even there if they haven't put in the base miles. They
may be
> light but most are strong and muscular.

Run the numbers. 300 watts at 90 rpm is an average pedal force of 40 lbs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&lis
t_uids=9830826&dopt=Abstract

> By calling light weight guys "puny toothpicks" you are comparing your "fatness" to guys in really
> good shape.> You are probably a poor climber and racer.

What has that got to do with anything. Drop the emotional rant and come up with some data. You
probably know both sprinters and climbers, so what do you observe as a trend.

>
> >I believe it comes down to power to weight ratio assuming optium gear selection, technique and
> >motivation etc. are all equal.
>
>
> ********! What about conditioning?

Better "endurance" conditioning in cycling improves ones aerobic power to weight ratio. Average
recreational riders can have similar leg strength to elite climbers.

Phil Holman

 

[GearóId Ó Laoi/]

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> So what's all this talk of professional racers, and how many of them contributors have interviewed
> or ridden with? The question is from an average recreational rider who wants to know how to get in
> shape for hills. Therefore, all this talk is just so much posturing.
No it's not.

This stuff is like the laws of physics, it doesn't change from person to person. Climbing ability is
a function of
1. Genetics, which gives you your potential VO2 max.
2. Your weight.
3. Your trained power.
4. The weight of your bike and luggage if you have some.

That's it.

 

[Si Davies]

yeah, but think about how much more you'd suck if you avoided the hills....

"oldphart" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> well ladeedaa I choose hilly routes and I choose to live at 6500 ft. I still suck....... :|
>
> Nick Kew wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, one of
infinite monkeys
> > at the keyboard of "Si Davies" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"it's not fair - you always choose a route that takes in hills" he
whines,
> >>"you know i can't do hills like you can". "ah", I answer " that's because i always choose the
> >>hilly routes"
> >
> >
> > Hey, I routinely choose hilly routes[1], and I'm exceeding slow on them!
> >
> > [1] In fact I do more than that: I choose to live in hilly areas.

 

[Tony Raven]

[email protected] wrote:
>
> At your age you should be able to get into good bicycling aerobic and muscular condition in a
> couple of months if you put in at least 200mi per week of riding aggressively over hilly terrain.
>

Hmmm 10-15 hours of aggressive hilly riding a week. That's the weekends fully booked then ;-)

Tony -- http://www.raven-family.com

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to
adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George
Bernard Shaw

 

[J&H-W]

Choose the lowest gear you have, climb in that gear up any substantial hill and think about
anything but cycling (your next holiday, work problems) be prepared to sweat lots. After 3-4 weeks
you'll find yourself going up the same hill one gear higher, in another month, maybe you'll be 2
gears higher.

Time yourself not to the summit of the hill, but something a little further on, over the weeks and
months you'll find your time coming down.

When you see a slight levelling off, take the opportunity to change a gear higher and stand on the
bars for a few brief moments (change of muscle groups) then resume the previous gear & position.

Dress light, be prepared to sweat & chill on the eventual downhill.

I find going on a hard ride the day before, allows me to fly up my training hill the following day.
My climb begins 2km from home, climbs 300M in 4.5km on seal & gravel. On a average day it takes me
24min, bad day 26min, good day sometimes 22min

When I started out on this route I barely made it up the first steep pinch on days 1-7,
managed better the 2nd week, now months / years later I can climb with relative ease, but its
never easy.....

Good luck........John W


"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Turbo.Fahel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.
> >
> > I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I struggle on the hills.
> >
> > What can I do to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???
>
> Climb more hills!

 

[Lester Long]

"Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > So what's all this talk of professional racers, and how many of them contributors have
> > interviewed or ridden with? The question is from an average recreational rider who wants to know
> > how to get in shape for hills. Therefore, all this talk is just so much posturing.
> No it's not.
>
> This stuff is like the laws of physics, it doesn't change from person to person. Climbing ability
> is a function of
> 1. Genetics, which gives you your potential VO2 max.
> 2. Your weight.
> 3. Your trained power.
> 4. The weight of your bike and luggage if you have some.
>
> That's it.
>

Sorry to butt in, but is this why my wife is able to fare so well against male riders in every
aspect of riding/racing EXCEPT hill climbs? Because she has more (2) per unit of (3)?

Regards, Lester