Learning to climb better...



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Steve Palincsar wrote:
> > Slow down. Pick the steepest grade you can find and see how slowly you can go up it. You won't
> > have worked even a tiny bit when you get to the top.
>
> Funny, Ron - gravity must work differently on your planet than mine.
>
> I go up slowly and find I'm working my tail off the whole time! And I've absolutely never, ever,
> even once, found that I've gotten to the top of the steepest grade I can find and discovered that
> I haven't worked even a tiny bit.

I think you didn't try it. Go up as _slowly as you can_, not as fast as you can. It's a balancing
contest, not a race.

It establishes that hills are easy. There's therefore _some_ speed at which they are as hard as you
normally work on the flat; use that speed in climbing that hill. That's where learning pacing comes
in. You have to guess that speed from the feel right away.

Now, if you want to minimize ride time given your level of energy expenditure, you might want to
work a little harder uphill and a little less elsewhere to compensate; if you're in no hurry, you
don't have to. It still depends on pacing to pull it off, however.
--
Ron Hardin [email protected]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
 
archer <ns_archer1960@ns_hotmail.com> wrote:

[email protected] says...

>> What was the vertical and distance on such climbs? I've been under the impression that it's
>> difficult or impossible to find long climbs east of the Mississippi, but that's probably just
>> homerism and means I really need to get out more.
>
>Every year they run a bike race up Mt Washington NH, which is the highest point north of the
>Carolinas and east of the Rockies. There are only a couple of points higher east of the
>Mississippi.

The highest, I believe, is Mt. Mitchell - the site of the annual AOMM (Assault On Mount Mitchell).
Starts in South Carolina and goes into North Carolina - 11,000 feet (3350m) of climbing in just over
100 miles (160km) IIRC. When you're done with that one, you know you've done a "long climb".

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Andrew Bradley wrote:
>
> > Reminds me of Zoetemelk doing the clean and jerk on "Superstars" -
a
> > TV program where top sportsmen competed in different disciplines (remember?).
>
> Brian Jacks (judo player) was the king for many years. I don't ever remember an endurance athlete
> getting up there, even to challenge. STF

They had Lasse Viren on there once........a little embarrassing. The decathlon is amusing. World
class athletes compete in most events at least at the national level......except for the 1500m where
they run like middle school boys.

Phil Holman
 
David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<mye*[email protected]>...
> Mike S. <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote:
> >I stopped reading all the posts, but one thing I remember from when I first started riding is
> >that hills never hurt any less, they just get faster.
>
> Only if you like that kind of thing. Wind up them nice and gradually - cycling isn't penance for
> the previous day's sins!

But young* Turbo wants to ride up them quickly. It's not going to happen without a certain
amount of pain.

*Younger than me, anyway. :)

--
Dave...
 
Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee wrote:
> This stuff is like the laws of physics, it doesn't change from person to person. Climbing ability
> is a function of
> 1. Genetics, which gives you your potential VO2 max.
> 2. Your weight.
> 3. Your trained power.
> 4. The weight of your bike and luggage if you have some.
>
You forgot the most important ability for climbers (and other endurance athletes) which is to have
the mental strength to endure pain longer than their competitors. Power to weight is the best
physical predictor and when all things are more or less equal mental strength is the selector.

Anyway VO2 max has been shown to not be the all important indicator of endurance ability that it
once was thought to be. The highest VO2 max recorded belonged to an anonymous middle distance
athlete who did not win any races even at national level.
 
Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee wrote:
> This stuff is like the laws of physics, it doesn't change from person to person. Climbing ability
> is a function of
> 1. Genetics, which gives you your potential VO2 max.
> 2. Your weight.
> 3. Your trained power.
> 4. The weight of your bike and luggage if you have some.
>
> That's it.
You forgot the most important thing for a climber (and for most endurance athletes) which is the
mental strength to endure just a little more pain than their competitors.

Anyway there are studies that demonstrate that VO2 max is not a particularly accurate predictor of
athletic performance (the highest VO2 max recorded belonged to an obscure middle distance runner who
never won anything even at national level).
 
Was the training camp near Bedford and did you climb up from the James River on the Parkway to
Peaks of Otter?

Lanny "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ken Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:hvZla.191573$Zo.35635@sccrnsc03...
> >
> > "Tony W" <...
> > >
> > > "Turbo.Fahel" <.ihug.co.nz...
> > > > I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.
> > > >
> > > > I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I
struggle
> > on
> > > > the hills.
> > > >
> > > > What can I do to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???
> > >
> > > Get in a lower gear and keep your pedalling cadence up in the 60 to 90 range.
> >
> > Don't forget the mental aspect (and pain toleration) which as equal to, if not greater than the
> > raw physical ability to climb long hills (1K or longer).
>
> C'mon Ken, you know better than that. I recently attended a training camp
in
> Virginia that included a 20-40 min climb (depending on the rider's abilities), and earlier in the
> week the other campers did a 1-2 h climb.
You
> could predict who got to the top first based simply on each person's sustainable
> power-to-weight ratio.
>
> Andy Coggan
 
Ken Papai wrote:

> Don't forget the mental aspect (and pain toleration) which as equal to, if not greater than the
> raw physical ability to climb long hills (1K or longer).

I guess I'm missing something, but I find long climbs a real pleasure. Riding at a slower pace with
another rider, chatting as we go, watching the landscape move slowly by, is something I look
forward to on a ride. It's certainly not painful. Racing up hills is a completely different
experience, though.

If I can hold a conversation while climbing, I know I'm at an exertion level I can maintain
indefinitely.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/
 
Michael MacClancy wrote:

> In message <[email protected]>, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
> <[email protected]> writes
> >
> >
> >Mark Hickey wrote:
> >
> >(snip)
> >
> >>
> >> And don't forget that sometimes with low weight comes low strength. Don't buy a stupidlite part
> >> that will put your dentist's kids through college if it breaks.
> >>
> >> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
> >
> > What's wrong with that?
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >
> >--
> >Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
> >
> >
>
> I can appreciate the humour in your comment but you don't seriously want people to have
> accidents, do you?
> --
> Michael MacClancy

Seriously?? Nooo! When I started cycling in the mid-late '70s, we were going through that
ultralight-everything drilled out phase--some guys even drilled out their crank arms. As someone
who's seen steel pedal spindals break on a rider climbing out of the saddle right in front of
me, sacrifice of strength is the last thing I'd want to see!

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
 
Tim McNamara wrote:

> > Indurain was a pretty big guy for a cyclist. I'd bet his V02max was also very high.
>
> According to the media of the day, 88 ml/kg/min, with 8 liter lung capacity. Lemond's was above 90
> ml/kg/min when tested at Valparaiso Indiana in 1992 or thereabouts- and that was missing the
> bottom quarter of one lung. He posted the highest numbers the exercise physiologists there had
> ever seen.
>
> I've never seen actual numbers for Armstrong.

83.8 for Armstrong, according to lancearmstrong.com. His power output at VO2max is 600 W.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/
 
Terry Morse writes:

>> Don't forget the mental aspect (and pain toleration) which as equal to, if not greater than the
>> raw physical ability to climb long hills (1K or longer).

> I guess I'm missing something, but I find long climbs a real pleasure. Riding at a slower pace
> with another rider, chatting as we go, watching the landscape move slowly by, is something I look
> forward to on a ride. It's certainly not painful. Racing up hills is a completely different
> experience, though.

> If I can hold a conversation while climbing, I know I'm at an exertion level I can maintain
> indefinitely.

Then I guess we won't have to read ride reports from you telling of the pain and arduous climbs,
dragging the reader into one's perception of what bicycling is all about... and it ain't that for
those of us who enjoy the ride for the landscape and company we keep.

On wreck.bike.rides I am often moved to reply to writers of these tales: "If you didn't like it,
don't tell us about it!" On the other hand, some of these folks have written to me about my reports
calling them unbelievable because I don't tell of suffering and pain.

http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
Donald Munro writes:

> You forgot the most important ability for climbers (and other endurance athletes) which is to have
> the mental strength to endure pain longer than their competitors. Power to weight is the best
> physical predictor and when all things are more or less equal mental strength is the selector.

You may be surprised but young racers often do not suffer "pain" while climbing. They run out of
aerobic capacity, not being able to breathe any harder, which limits the power that can be brought
to the pedals. Not all bicyclists are old fogies that suffer all the time when riding hard.

> Anyway VO2 max has been shown to not be the all important indicator of endurance ability that it
> once was thought to be. The highest VO2 max recorded belonged to an anonymous middle distance
> athlete who did not win any races even at national level.

That is greatly different on a bicycle because bicycling does not rely on style. The mechanical
constraints of circularly moving pedals make this so. Of course, here on wreck.bike, people seek the
magic handshake that will give them better climbing speed just the same.

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
 
Turbo.Fahel wrote:
> Thanks for everyone's positive comments.
>
> I will put them to test and give you all an update in a few months.

Which comments do you intend to put to the test? You've received a lot of conflicting advice, much
of it bad, in particular, the guy who attacks every hill as hard as ever he can and admits that he
seldom makes it to the top.

My advice would be to buy a book about or search the web for information on structured training
programs and than taylor one for climbing. Where the program prescribes intervals, insert the hill
repeats mentioned by others. Where the program prescribes long endurance rides, substitute long
hilly rides. Check the local maps. If there's a road named the Peak to Peak Highway or Skyline
Drive, go ride there. When the program prescribes active rest stay away from the hills. The biggest
mistake made by novices is lack of intensity on the hard days and too much intensity on the active
rest days. Don't fall into the rut of trying to climb hard every day. You'll end up climbing at a
pace that can be maintained every day which is to say slowly.

Find a group near your ability level to ride with. They'll keep you motivated and push you on the
hard days. If you can't get them to take the easy days seriously, ride alone on those days.

You can ignore most of what was said about the "mental aspect". As you gain experience and
fitness you will gain the confidence to use it. There are no secret "willpower" techniques to be
learned in CA.

Trimming excess weight is key as many others said.

Cheers, Bret (who's not a natural climber but I get by sometimes)

>
> --
> Regards, Turbo Fahel __o -\<, ( ) / ( )
>
>
> "Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Per Elmsäter <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Turbo.Fahel wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am 44 yrs old and today joined a club.
>>>>
>>>>I need to improve my climbing ability as it very average as I struggle on the hills.
>>>>
>>>>What can I do to improve, riding more, gym work etc ???
>>>
>>>I was in your situation about six months ago and today the hills are
>>
> where
>
>>I
>>
>>>can relax because everybody else is slowing down more than I need to. So
>>
>>on
>>
>>>group rides my pulse usually goes down on a hill. I'm 52 and riding with recreational riders.
>>>
>>>So what did I do? I attack every hill I can find. I ride detours when commuting to work to find
>>>hills to attack. I go up as hard as I ever can
>>
>>on
>>
>>>as high a gear as possible spinning as fast as possible. I seldom make
>>
> it
>
>>>all the way to the top. If I do I haven't attacked hard enough. However
>>
> my
>
>>>cadence on hills is lower than on the flat. The people I ride with often have a higher cadence on
>>>hills than on the flat and therefore slow down
>>
> to
>
>>>much.
>>>
>>>I've been a regular at the Gym over the winter doing bicycle related exercises.Both for the legs
>>>and the upper body. For this part I have
>>
> used
>
>>>Chris Carmichaels recommendations in his book the Lance Armstrong Performance Program. I showed
>>>my Gym instructor the workouts section and
>>
>>he
>>
>>>set up my program according to this. I am not saying you have to use the Carmichael program but
>>>it is good to have a program that is bicycle
>>
>>related.
>>
>>>Many good coaches and athletes can help you with that.
>>>
>>>But mainly. I just love attacking a hill. I don't know why but it feels
>>
> so
>
>>>damn good everytime.
>>>--
>>>Perre
>>>
>>>Remove and/or replace the DOTs as needed to reply
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I completely agree with this now I'm pretty fit, but when I'd just started
>
> I
>
>>used to collapse half way up most hills through trying too hard. The key for me was NOT attacking
>>too hard at the bottom but finding a pace that I could maintain all the way up. Also... Resist the
>>temptation to drop through to the lowest gear possible. Alternate sitting & standing. Concentrate
>>on not loosing momentum when changing position. When sitting, sit well back & stretch legs out
>>fully on the downstroke. Concentrate on controlled deep breathing, right from the bottom. Try
>>using a heart rate monitor. You will find there is a point of no
>
> return,
>
>>if you stick just below this you will complete the hill. Go over it and collapse is immenent.
>>Remember if you've just joined a club, you can't expect to keep up with
>
> the
>
>>other riders who've maybe raced & trained regularly, nobody would. Just
>
> keep
>
>>riding and enjoy it! Hills show up differences in fitness far more than
>
> the
>
>>flat so its not that your not good at hills, it just shows more. Finally,
>
> I
>
>>heard somewhere it takes about 3 years of training to reach your optimum fitness, whatever your
>>age so you've a lot to look forward to!
>>
>>Russell
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.471 / Virus Database: 269 - Release Date: 10/04/2003
 
Bret Wade wrote:
> Turbo.Fahel wrote:
>> Thanks for everyone's positive comments.
>>
>> I will put them to test and give you all an update in a few months.
>
> Which comments do you intend to put to the test? You've received a lot of conflicting advice, much
> of it bad, in particular, the guy who attacks every hill as hard as ever he can and admits that he
> seldom makes it to the top.
>

If it was my advice you're referring to I think you have misunderstood what I said. I don't *admit*
that I don't make it to the top. I *pace* myself so that I will not make it to the top. That is a
very big difference. It's just a variation on interval training and a goforit attitude.

When I am out riding normally or on clubrides of course I pace myself so that I will make it to the
top and have plenty to give on the descent. However during those last months I've noticed that I
outclimb a lot of people I didn't six months ago.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> You may be surprised but young racers often do not suffer "pain" while climbing. They run out of
> aerobic capacity, not being able to breathe any harder, which limits the power that can be brought
> to the pedals. Not all bicyclists are old fogies that suffer all the time when riding hard.
>

Does that really have anything to do with age. I'm 52 and still have never experienced the pain
everybody talks about. I just go till I'm out of breath and then I can keep going a little while
longer if I don't mind going into oxygen debt. My legs get heavier but there definitely is no pain.
Of course I have to pay dearly if I continue too far because I will almost faint while recovering
and can barely keep moving until I'm breathing normal again. A HR monitor was really helpful for me
to learn to recognize other subtle signs that meant I was going to go into oxygen debt soon.

I'm not a well trained athlete nor was I when young. Just a normally active recreational whatever.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

...

> Perre
>
> You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

I like that tagline!

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.
 
> [email protected] wrote:
> > You may be surprised but young racers often do not suffer "pain" while climbing. They run
> > out of aerobic capacity, not being able to breathe any harder, which limits the power that
> > can be brought to the pedals. Not all bicyclists are old fogies that suffer all the time
> > when riding hard.

As usual you are wrong!

You not young, you old, you know! :)
 
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