leg soreness cure?

ChangingLINKS.com said:

*You could think I am not exactly how I wish to be, and want to "help"
me change to be more like you. I got sold on the Atkins diet, not by
Atkins, but by the way my body feels.
*

[censored] man, you were the one asking for help and advice. If you're not
really interested in it, why initiate the post? Just baiting again like
all your [censored] with Jagur?

I don't care if you're more like me or not. You say you were sold on
Atkins by the way your body feels, but according to your original post,
your body feels like [censored]. Hmmm. The casual observer might reach the
conclusion that there's a CONNECTION between your unbalanced diet and
your muscular issues.

Go ahead and go pure protein. Binge/purge. Whatever works for you.
I'll be the guy cleaning your ass on the climbs and not whining about my
sore legs the next day.

--
tomblackwood - Registered Nurtz

Tailgate at your own risk.....

"By George! The man's a genius!"
Murde Mental

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[censored] man,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ah. I sense frustration. Much conflict in you.

you were the one asking for help and advice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

About leg soreness NOT diet. Thanks.

If you're not really interested in it, why initiate the post?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I experienced DOMS for the FIRST time.

Just baiting again like all your [censored] with Jagur?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No. The Jagur thing happens with or without OUR output - lest you

forget *your* participation.

I don't care if you're more like me or not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes you do. That is the reason you are upset. I did not accept your

ideas.

You say you were sold on Atkins by the way your body feels, but
according to your original post, your body feels like [censored].

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Read please. I experienced DOMS for the FIRST time. My body feels

great otherwise. The hidden story here is that the rest of my body
handled the stress fine. I'm happy about that. Join me in celebrating
your inaccuracy.

Hmmm. The casual observer might reach the conclusion that there's a
CONNECTION between your unbalanced diet and your muscular issues.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes. Casual people don't READ. I was on a completely normal diet

prior to the ride. I only started the dieting a day after the ride (in
an effort to quickly drop weight, increase skill and endurance, and
climbing).

Look upstream...what do your muscles need before they undertake the
exercise in the first place?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They got what they needed. Please read the article on DOMS. Where

does it mention food there? The fundamental problem was OVERDOING IT.
Not diet. I'd be willing to bet that if YOU (or most others) went on
that ride, the same would have happened. Eric L. was NOT dieting. Eric
L. IS a good climber. Eric L also had a DOMS reaction. He was also
drinking electrolytes on the ride. Your claim holds no value.

Or go ahead and go pure protein, hope that you can compensate after the
fact. Binge/purge. Whatever works for you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thank you! Perhaps if you had the wisdom to understand that before,

you wouldn't have put so much egotistical and emotional value in your
responses.

I'll be the guy cleaning your ass on the climbs and not whining about my
sore legs the next day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Normally, I would take that as a challenge, but I find no value in

competing with *you.* You simply don't matter. I would gain nothing by
recognizing you as a competitor. Besides, good or bad, I'm satisfied
with my M-uni performance level. Winning or losing against you would not
change that fact.

Note:
I hope you realize that tossing out curse words, flames, emotional
responses only cheapens your argument and weakens your position. If you
are going to write, please read and comprehend the circumstances of this
thread first. I did ask for specific help, but YOUR help is not
necessary, especially if it leads to teenage behaviours.

Please check yourself before I start competing with you on childishness.

--
ChangingLINKS.com - member

Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew Brown
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As I first mentioned supplements I fell I had better jump in again. I
was talking about lactic acid build up, not torn muscles. Injury is
different to a build up of lactic acid. You can easily get a test for
lactic acid build up if you know an elite sports coach. Just a [censored], a
drop of blood and a litmus sort of test.

Re the Aitkins. My advive is to stop now! Try food combining though.
This is where you don't mix carbos and protein at the same time. You
adjust the levels. It is like a Aitkins sort off but you still get your
carbos. Do a web search.

This is a long way from unicycling, but if after rest and some good
advice (a few days) and you haven't recovered.... you betta go n see
someone like an expert.

--
onebyone

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Ah yeah and by the way. What I really like about unicycling and
unicyclist is that we are unofficially all together, and try to help
each other. Try other elite sports. Most of them want to kill each
other. I have nearly always found unicyclists pretty different and would
love to know this is still the case.

--
onebyone

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you were the one asking for help and advice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

About leg soreness NOT diet. Thanks.

You can't be serious. When the diet suggestion was offered as a remedy
or preventative for leg soreness, I am pretty sure it was appropriate.

ChangingLINKS.com said:

*I still don't get it. *

Well said.

ChangingLINKS.com said:

*See, people held you out to be a climbing God, but on the times I
ridden with you, you've only climbed about as good as other riders. *

You have ridden with me 2 times. I have no control over what “people”
may have said. I was one of the first muni riders in this area, so many
newer riders were impressed with my riding. Some of those riders are
now better than I. Also, I have had some fluctuations in my climbing
ability because of injuries, lack of training for some periods, and knee
reconstruction surgery.

ChangingLINKS.com said:

*Clearly Eric is the best *local* climber. There is a possibility
that it is AJ, but often times he simply won't (ride/compete/climb) so
I can't tell for sure. *

Is it really necessary to rate the people you ride with? You recently
commented in another thread that the local Coker riders weren’t that
great, when in reality they have ridden multiple MS150 and Tour De Cure
events. 107-150 miles in 2 days. What have you done?

ChangingLINKS.com said:

*I heard stories of you climbing the cement inclines that are around
bridges for breakfast. *

Yes, I was doing that. I haven’t tried it lately. There really weren’t
many people who would buy me breakfast for climbing a cement incline.
Especially since most of the people under bridges are homeless.

ChangingLINKS.com said:

*So with all of that hype, you can understand why I'm still wanting
to "see how it's done." *

Wanting to see is okay. Badgering me about it when we ride is not.
Most of us want to have fun on a group muni ride, not have a four hour
climbing and gapping clinic.

ChangingLINKS.com said:

*With you in mind, I actually started practicing on an extremely
steep grass incline.
I think that climbing and gapping are the two most valuable skills for
off-road (because everything else gets better automatically). *

I don’t think so. It just depends on what you want to be good at. Fast
spinning and blasting down rocky hills are a big adrenaline rush and
will let you cover more miles in a ride. Neither gets better
“automatically”, and could be considered every bit as important as
climbing and gapping.

I hope your legs are feeling better. Go climb Jester Hill.

--
S_Wallis - MUni-motivated, Distance-curious

"I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn
how to do it." Pablo Picasso
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onebyone said:

As I first mentioned supplements I fell I had better jump in again. I
was talking about lactic acid build up, not torn muscles. Injury is
different to a build up of lactic acid. You can easily get a test for
lactic acid build up if you know an elite sports coach. Just a [censored], a
drop of blood and a litmus sort of test.

Sure, lactate level can be determined by a simple blood test. Lactate
is the result of anaerobic conversion of glucose to energy. Another
result of that conversion is muscle acidosis, thus the term "lactic
acid", which is something of a misnomer.

But what is you point? Are you saying that lactic acid causes delayed
onsel soreness? That theory has been disproven. Muscle acidosis may
indeed result in temporary fatigue, but it critically allows bursts of
energy which would not otherwise be possible. Lactate and acidosis
are metabolized away when aerobic function resumes. I've read they
are completely removed in 30 minutes to an hour. Did you read the
article I mentioned about possible protective effects of muscle
acidosis?

As for supplementing with sodium bicarbonate, I think it is complete
nonsense. Bear with me for a moment while I discuss a related health
issue. One sign of acute mountain sickness is metabolic acidosis.
Some mountaineers recommended antacid supplements to combat this
phenomenon. Seems like a good theory, but the bloodstream is
carefully buffered and isolated from the highly acidic stomach.
Reducing stomach acidity with antacids doesn't affect blood acidity,
and doesn't help with AMS.

Now, muscles cells are one step further removed from the sodium
bicarbonate (antacid) you recommend than the bloodstream. There is no
reason to expect any change in muscle ph when taking your supplement.
I can only speculate why horse trainers might use it - electrolyte
replacement, hopeful thinking, or maybe the horses have indigestion.

And again, this is assuming that acid buildup is bad. Go read the
article for a less absolute perspective.

Quoted message said:

Re the Aitkins. My advive is to stop now! Try food combining though.
This is where you don't mix carbos and protein at the same time. You
adjust the levels. It is like a Aitkins sort off but you still get your
carbos. Do a web search.

I agree that most people who claim to be on the Atkins diet are doing
themselves harm. Here are some specific criticisms. There is a
strong tendency for people to fall off the diet, gain back even more
weight, and repeat. Hamburger patties and bacon are not what Atkins
is about, in recent years they have been preaching less saturated fat
(e.g. eat chicken breasts instead of spare ribs). The body needs some
carbs to burn fat as fuel. Completely avoiding carbs does an athlete
a double disservice, first by reducing both glycogen availability and
fat burning ability. Arguments about glycemic index and glycemic load
are usually oversimplified and often misleading (e.g. mixing different
types of food can significantly moderate increases in blood glucose).

On the positive side, the Atkins maintenance phase with moderate carb
intake might be just the trick for someone looking to lose weight
while exercising. But here's a bit of solid nutritional advice for:
Simply adding fruits and vegetables to one's diet is often enough to
induce weight loss without any other conscious actions.

Ken

S_Wallis wrote:

You have ridden with me 2 times. I have no control over what “people”
may have said.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes. I am not saying my perception (or theirs) is "valid." I know

now, that the perceptions are probably wrong.

Is it really necessary to rate the people you ride with?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To each his own. I am not "benevolent" like Eric L., Kris Holm or

Dan Heaton. Like you rating my behavior, I rate other's ability to ride
in an effort to try to learn from them and improve my riding.

You recently commented in another thread that the local Coker riders
weren’t that great,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes. I wanted to prevent people from thinking that I would be

competing with extremely fast Coker riders. Guys like Nathan Hoover bust
out 600 mile treks. AspenMike, enough said. Gizmoduck. If I had not
mentioned that, I believe people would say (like in the past) that it
would be impossible to keep up.

What have you done?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not much. I don't feel that I need to do much with this sport. If

you'd like, I'll race you or something, but I have no aspirations other
than to continue riding at about my current level.

Wanting to see is okay. Badgering me about it when we ride is not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I like to rib you, Scott. If you want me to stop, I guess I can do

that for you. I guess I could find someone with thicker skin. Do I need
to use kid gloves with the one formerly known as "The" Scott?

Most of us want to have fun on a group muni ride, not have a four hour
climbing and gapping clinic.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds like a good subject for a pole. My guess is some people want

to overcome challenges, teach or be taught - kind of like a team sport.
At the time I started riding, the M-uni culture was geared towards being
a learning environment. We'd go on urban rides "for fun."

Fast spinning and blasting down rocky hills are a big adrenaline rush
and will let you cover more miles in a ride. Neither gets better
“automatically”, and could be considered every bit as important as
climbing and gapping.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We all know it's easier to learn how to ride down stairs than to hop

up them. We all know that fast spinning is learned "automatically:"
Think back to the San Antonio ride. We spun for days following you.
There was relatively less climbing, with most people opting to walk
sometimes.
I guess my point is that if one learns to climb well (and gap and hop)
they will also get enough exposure to spinning and descending. When I
say "automatically" I mean that the riders get exposed to (and more
easily accomplish) the skills.

I hope your legs are feeling better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They are.

Go climb Jester Hill.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I will. We now call that "new" trail "Jester Hill Trail." Officially

it includes riding down (then riding the up and down trail) and back up
the paved Jester Hill. Before today, I would beg you to come and show me
your skillz.

Ah, the good 'ole days.

--
ChangingLINKS.com - member

Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew Brown
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I agree that most people who claim to be on the Atkins diet are doing
themselves harm. Here are some specific criticisms. There is a
strong tendency for people to fall off the diet, gain back even more
weight, and repeat.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps some do, however, I see that I have trended downwards in

weight (250 -> 217 -> 227 -> 210). At least those that diet are trying.
I think that this "trial (and even error)" is much better than doing
nothing at all.

The body needs some carbs to burn fat as fuel. Completely avoiding
carbs does an athlete a double disservice, first by reducing both
glycogen availability and
fat burning ability.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do a modified diet. I typically don't avoid carbs altogether. I

also usually mix this with a big increase of moderate excercise (as in
riding off-road 5+ miles a day, or 10+ mile distances on road. Oddly,
the diet that seemed to work "the best" is one where I eat anything from
5-7 PM, and nothing else at any other time. I was able to maintain a
stable weight, feel great, and get more productivity (because I wasn't
worried about preparing and eating food 3-5 times a day). Things that
seem to work for me, don't necessarily work for others.

On the positive side, the Atkins maintenance phase with moderate carb
intake might be just the trick for someone looking to lose weight while
exercising.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's what I do, and I drop weight visibly FAST.

I must say here that I don't look "chubby." Most people say that I
"don't need" to lose weight. However, in the coming months, I will be
doing dance competitions and more M-uni. I know that dropping to my
"ideal Internet weight" (found on numerous websites with various
calculations) will make a significant difference in my performance. I
haven't been 210 (for more than a few hours) for over a decade.

--
ChangingLINKS.com - member

Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew Brown
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This tread sort of amazes me. If you get sore from any athletic
experience, it's almost certainly due to a fitness level that was not
equal to the task. Soreness can be reduced through sage nutrition and
tanking up on stuff like Cydomax and so forth before and after a ride,
but if you're not in shape you'll still get sore no matter how you
modulate your diet. A medical text might tell you "what" the soreness
acually is, but the solution ain't found in the text, but on the trail
that spanked you (with a few tubes of Gu to keep you going strong).

JL

--
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ChangingLINKS.com said:

*I hope you realize that tossing out curse words only cheapens your
argument and weakens your position. Please check yourself before I
start competing with you on childishness. *

Checked. Totally agree on that point...should have watched my language.
I usually try to pay close attention to that. I think I need to stop
posting late at night...or maybe period.

--
tomblackwood - Registered Nurtz

Tailgate at your own risk.....

"By George! The man's a genius!"
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tomblackwood said:

*Checked. Totally agree on that point...should have watched my
language. I usually try to pay close attention to that. I think I
need to stop posting late at night...or maybe period. *

Late at night only, I hope.

--
U-Turn - Cool water for the flame

Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield.
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vivalargo said:

*This tread sort of amazes me. If you get sore from any athletic
experience, it's almost certainly due to a fitness level that was not
equal to the task. JL *

I agree. Please understand that I was also "amazed." We "only" rode 4
miles or so. I have "ridden hard" before. I've climbed nearby hills
before, even more. I've even rode much farther before and had cramps all
over AND my stomach muscles locked up. Still, nothing prepared me for
DOMS. I didn't know it existed. Like the article points out, I felt
"fine" most of the time. I did "blow up" on the final climb. Even with
that explosion I had NO clue that soreness would set in later. I was
"caught unawares."

Next time I get out there, I will be better prepared.

Now that I know that there is NO post-tramatic speedy CURE,
I hope this thread can serve as a heads up for other riders.
Diet, training, flexibilty, and suppliment issues aside . . . beware of
D.elayed O.nset M.uscle S.oreness

--
ChangingLINKS.com - member

Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew Brown
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Firstly. Are your sore leg muscles better yet? If so what did you do?

But what is you point? Are you saying that lactic acid causes delayed
onset soreness? That theory has been disproven. Muscle acidosis may
indeed result in temporary fatigue, but it critically allows bursts of
energy which would not otherwise be possible. Lactate and acidosis
are metabolized away when aerobic function resumes. I've read they
are completely removed in 30 minutes to an hour. Did you read the
article I mentioned about possible protective effects of muscle
acidosis?

Yep, you are right. I am usually a late nighter and also not responsible
for my ravings🙁

I am not an expert and do not pretend to be one, I am basing my
suggestions on what I have seen in a sports person world (but not
unicycling).

As far as unicycling is concerned for me, I see it as a hobby,
recreation and an interest, not sport. I was just offering misguided
advice to a guy with sore legs.

I now realise there is pain during an activity which can hinder
performance and delayed pain. The Bi carb I mentioned is or was used for
anerabic activities by some athletes to prevent acidosis. I knew some
endurance athletes who had to do sprinting in stages who used it and
thought it worked and also some sprint athletes who had to go through
heats, semis, final etc in different craft within a few days. Some used
Bi carb to get through the competition. I am niot saying it is right or
legal, but they did!

Do some searches for muscle soreness, acidosis etc. there are a lot of
sites on it and many of them mention Bi carb of soda. I have read the
article in your suggested link and it makes intersting reading.

I am not absolute at all. I am more than open to suggestions, tips and
readings and research. Thats how we learn and thats what I enjoy about
these forums.

--
onebyone

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Firstly. Are your sore leg muscles better yet? If so what did you do?

To Ken
Yep, you are right. I am usually a late nighter and also not responsible
for my ravings🙁

I am not an expert and do not pretend to be one, I am basing my
suggestions on what I have seen in a sports persons world (but not
unicycling).

As far as unicycling is concerned for me, I see it as a hobby,
recreation and an interest, not sport. I was just offering misguided
advice to a guy with sore legs.

I now realise there is pain during an activity which can hinder
performance and delayed pain. The Bi carb I mentioned is or was used for
anerobic activities by some athletes to prevent acidosis.

I knew some endurance athletes who had to do sprinting in stages during
an event who used it and thought it worked and also some sprint athletes
who had to go through heats, semis, final etc in different craft within
a few days. Some used Bi carb to get through the competition and they
felt it worked for them. I am not saying it is right or legal, but they
did use it! and yes generally I am talking about anerobic activities.,

Do some searches for muscle soreness, acidosis etc. there are a lot of
sites on it and many of them mention Bi carb of soda. The concept could
be out dated, I dont know.

I have read the article in your suggested link and it makes intersting
reading.

I am not absolute at all. I am more than open to suggestions, tips and
readings and research. That's how we learn and that's what I enjoy about
these forums.

My main point is go and see a health professional if a problem
persists.

All advice on just getting fit or being fit is right, I agree muscle
onset soreness is usually caused by overdoing an activity in relation to
fitness.

Red wine probably helps just as much

Cheers😉 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

--
onebyone

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Read the second entry, it should make more sense.

--
onebyone

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One thing to remember--something I was recently reminded of--is that you
can quickly fall out of tough Muni shape. Owing to blisering heat, and
a vacation I took to Venezuela, I laid off Muniing and just rode street
for about 6 weeks. And even though I was riding five days a week, when I
returned to Santa Barbara last weekend I was gassed in no time and
couldn't even ride stuff I easily handled just a few months ago.

For hard rolling, my skills erode like crazy when I get tired.

JL

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Last month, when I was in the middle of the Alps training, I started
developing chronic heartburn or acid stomach. 'The Lance Armstrong
Performance Program' (http://www.livewireunicycles.com/References.htm)
mentions this briefly.

I started taking an antacid before I left, and chewing another in the
middle of my ride, which helped quite a bit. However, I had no
intention for the effect to reach my legs, nor any idea whether it did.

--
U-Turn - Cool water for the flame

Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield.
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First, here's a anticle on DOMS from Phjysician in Sportsmedicine.
[http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1999/01_99/muscle.htm].

Now continuing the irrelevant argument...

onebyone said:

Do some searches for muscle soreness, acidosis etc. there are a lot of
sites on it and many of them mention Bi carb of soda. The concept could
be out dated, I dont know.

I didn't really find much relating bicarbonate and soreness. Reading
between the lines, One might infer that bicarb could reduce transient
soreness during anaerobic activity, but anaerobic pain has never
slowed me down - it is the muscles refusing to work, the brain
shutting down from lack of oxygen, and my limited heart and lungs that
do that.

You're right. There is widespread belief that sodium bicarbonate
lowers blood ph and neutralizes lactic acid, improving high power,
short duration exercise. Fortunately, I'm a skeptic and a
preponderance of belief does not sway me. I want evidence. The
evidence in favor of this is a bit sketchy. Sure, you can find
reports that bicarb improved performace by 1-3% (a very significant
claim), but other show no benefit. The dosage most often recommended
(.3g/kg) is frequently accompanied by a warning about vomiting, cramps
and diarrhea.

Many athletes are easily swayed by poor research and bogus claims.
Because of the side effects, it is at best difficult to do double
blind studies of bicarb on human subject. In cases like this, I like
to look at related areas to get a sense of whether the claims are
plausible.

Indeed, sodium bicarbonate has a history of over 50 years of use in
clinical settings for patients with metabolic acidosis. The theory
was that intravenious bicarb should correct the acidosis. This
information would tend to support the case for bicarbonate in athletes
if the practice had not ended 25 years ago. Here's an excerpt from a
Critical Care article describing detrimental effects of (presumably)
IV sodium bicarbonate administration:

However, the potential value of sodium bicarbonate was called into
question when more recent studies demonstrated that it induced
venous hypercarbia, and decreases in tissue and cerebrospinal fluid
pH, as well as provoking tissue hypoxia, circulatory congestion,
hypernatremia, and hyperosmolality, with consequent brain
damage[1,2,3,4,5,6]. Bicarbonate buffers may intensify rather than
ameliorate cellular acidosis because sodium bicarbonate generates
CO2 and thereby increases intracellular (hypercarbic) acidosis [7].

[http://ccforum.com/content/1/2/51]

In other words, injecting bicarbonate into the bloodstream increases -
at leas in some cases - acidity elsewhere in the body.

The bottom line is it sodium bicarbonate might benefit athletes, but
likely has no effect on soreness. It has significant side effects and
should be used at most occasionally.

Ken

OK ChangingLINKS.com I probably gave you some bad advice based on some
old athletes "old wives tales". By the way Changing links are you
better?

Now some books and sites say nothing will help recovery except time and
rest, gentle exercise etc and others make great claims for recovery.
What is the general consenus on recovery amino acids, vitamins etc.

Just promoting general discussion. I have competed at a relatively high
level in sprint and distance sports (world masters champ kayaking > 50
2002), and during really heavy training have taken supplements including
recovery aminos. Combined with a healthy diet, plenty of sleep etc I
feel that they have worked. During that time I used a HRM, read heaps
about using a HRM and training, most of it now forgotten. HRMs are great
for really serious training.

Uturn, I will have a good look at the link you put on your comment.
Lance Armstrong is an inspiration.

--
onebyone

Bill Blogs is an alian!
www.municycle.com.au
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onebyone said:

*Firstly. Are your sore leg muscles better yet? If so what did you do?
*

I'm going into day 6 and I still limp noticably when walking.
Yesterday I rode 30 minutes at my top average speed.
The riding was easier than walking (no limp 🙂 ) and seemed to have no
longterm effect.
My right leg feels completely healed.
My left "power" leg (the same leg I did all of the deep muscle massage
on along with the hammering and various other test treatments) is still
malfunctioning.

I interviewed a couple of doctors, did some research without luck.
I was unable to find a method to speed recovery.

--
ChangingLINKS.com - member

Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew Brown
'Changing LINKS' (http://www.ChangingLINKS.com)
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