leg soreness cure?

Discussion in 'rec.sport.unicycling' started by ChangingLINKS.com, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. tomblackwood

    tomblackwood Guest

    ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
    > *You could think I am not exactly how I wish to be, and want to "help"
    > me change to be more like you. I got sold on the Atkins diet, not by
    > Atkins, but by the way my body feels.
    > *


    Shit man, you were the one asking for help and advice. If you're not
    really interested in it, why initiate the post? Just baiting again like
    all your crap with Jagur?

    I don't care if you're more like me or not. You say you were sold on
    Atkins by the way your body feels, but according to your original post,
    your body feels like shit. Hmmm. The casual observer might reach the
    conclusion that there's a CONNECTION between your unbalanced diet and
    your muscular issues.

    Go ahead and go pure protein. Binge/purge. Whatever works for you.
    I'll be the guy cleaning your ass on the climbs and not whining about my
    sore legs the next day.


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  2. Shit man,
    >>> Ah. I sense frustration. Much conflict in you.




    you were the one asking for help and advice.
    >>> About leg soreness NOT diet. Thanks.




    If you're not really interested in it, why initiate the post?
    >>> I experienced DOMS for the FIRST time.



    Just baiting again like all your crap with Jagur?
    >>> No. The Jagur thing happens with or without OUR output - lest you

    forget *your* participation.


    I don't care if you're more like me or not.
    >>> Yes you do. That is the reason you are upset. I did not accept your

    ideas.


    You say you were sold on Atkins by the way your body feels, but
    according to your original post, your body feels like shit.
    >>> Read please. I experienced DOMS for the FIRST time. My body feels

    great otherwise. The hidden story here is that the rest of my body
    handled the stress fine. I'm happy about that. Join me in celebrating
    your inaccuracy.


    Hmmm. The casual observer might reach the conclusion that there's a
    CONNECTION between your unbalanced diet and your muscular issues.
    >>> Yes. Casual people don't READ. I was on a completely normal diet

    prior to the ride. I only started the dieting a day after the ride (in
    an effort to quickly drop weight, increase skill and endurance, and
    climbing).


    Look upstream...what do your muscles need before they undertake the
    exercise in the first place?
    >>> They got what they needed. Please read the article on DOMS. Where

    does it mention food there? The fundamental problem was OVERDOING IT.
    Not diet. I'd be willing to bet that if YOU (or most others) went on
    that ride, the same would have happened. Eric L. was NOT dieting. Eric
    L. IS a good climber. Eric L also had a DOMS reaction. He was also
    drinking electrolytes on the ride. Your claim holds no value.


    Or go ahead and go pure protein, hope that you can compensate after the
    fact. Binge/purge. Whatever works for you.
    >>> Thank you! Perhaps if you had the wisdom to understand that before,

    you wouldn't have put so much egotistical and emotional value in your
    responses.


    I'll be the guy cleaning your ass on the climbs and not whining about my
    sore legs the next day.
    >>> Normally, I would take that as a challenge, but I find no value in

    competing with *you.* You simply don't matter. I would gain nothing by
    recognizing you as a competitor. Besides, good or bad, I'm satisfied
    with my M-uni performance level. Winning or losing against you would not
    change that fact.


    Note:
    I hope you realize that tossing out curse words, flames, emotional
    responses only cheapens your argument and weakens your position. If you
    are going to write, please read and comprehend the circumstances of this
    thread first. I did ask for specific help, but YOUR help is not
    necessary, especially if it leads to teenage behaviours.

    Please check yourself before I start competing with you on childishness.


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  3. onebyone

    onebyone Guest

    As I first mentioned supplements I fell I had better jump in again. I
    was talking about lactic acid build up, not torn muscles. Injury is
    different to a build up of lactic acid. You can easily get a test for
    lactic acid build up if you know an elite sports coach. Just a prick, a
    drop of blood and a litmus sort of test.

    Re the Aitkins. My advive is to stop now! Try food combining though.
    This is where you don't mix carbos and protein at the same time. You
    adjust the levels. It is like a Aitkins sort off but you still get your
    carbos. Do a web search.

    This is a long way from unicycling, but if after rest and some good
    advice (a few days) and you haven't recovered.... you betta go n see
    someone like an expert.


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  4. onebyone

    onebyone Guest

    Ah yeah and by the way. What I really like about unicycling and
    unicyclist is that we are unofficially all together, and try to help
    each other. Try other elite sports. Most of them want to kill each
    other. I have nearly always found unicyclists pretty different and would
    love to know this is still the case.


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  5. S_Wallis

    S_Wallis Guest

    you were the one asking for help and advice.
    >>> About leg soreness NOT diet. Thanks.


    You can't be serious. When the diet suggestion was offered as a remedy
    or preventative for leg soreness, I am pretty sure it was appropriate.



    ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
    > *I still don't get it. *

    Well said.


    ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
    > *See, people held you out to be a climbing God, but on the times I
    > ridden with you, you've only climbed about as good as other riders. *

    You have ridden with me 2 times. I have no control over what “people”
    may have said. I was one of the first muni riders in this area, so many
    newer riders were impressed with my riding. Some of those riders are
    now better than I. Also, I have had some fluctuations in my climbing
    ability because of injuries, lack of training for some periods, and knee
    reconstruction surgery.

    ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
    > *Clearly Eric is the best *local* climber. There is a possibility
    > that it is AJ, but often times he simply won't (ride/compete/climb) so
    > I can't tell for sure. *

    Is it really necessary to rate the people you ride with? You recently
    commented in another thread that the local Coker riders weren’t that
    great, when in reality they have ridden multiple MS150 and Tour De Cure
    events. 107-150 miles in 2 days. What have you done?

    ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
    > *I heard stories of you climbing the cement inclines that are around
    > bridges for breakfast. *

    Yes, I was doing that. I haven’t tried it lately. There really weren’t
    many people who would buy me breakfast for climbing a cement incline.
    Especially since most of the people under bridges are homeless.

    ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
    > *So with all of that hype, you can understand why I'm still wanting
    > to "see how it's done." *

    Wanting to see is okay. Badgering me about it when we ride is not.
    Most of us want to have fun on a group muni ride, not have a four hour
    climbing and gapping clinic.

    ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
    > *With you in mind, I actually started practicing on an extremely
    > steep grass incline.
    > I think that climbing and gapping are the two most valuable skills for
    > off-road (because everything else gets better automatically). *

    I don’t think so. It just depends on what you want to be good at. Fast
    spinning and blasting down rocky hills are a big adrenaline rush and
    will let you cover more miles in a ride. Neither gets better
    “automatically”, and could be considered every bit as important as
    climbing and gapping.

    I hope your legs are feeling better. Go climb Jester Hill.


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  6. Ken Cline

    Ken Cline Guest

    "onebyone" <[email protected]> writes:

    > As I first mentioned supplements I fell I had better jump in again. I
    > was talking about lactic acid build up, not torn muscles. Injury is
    > different to a build up of lactic acid. You can easily get a test for
    > lactic acid build up if you know an elite sports coach. Just a prick, a
    > drop of blood and a litmus sort of test.


    Sure, lactate level can be determined by a simple blood test. Lactate
    is the result of anaerobic conversion of glucose to energy. Another
    result of that conversion is muscle acidosis, thus the term "lactic
    acid", which is something of a misnomer.

    But what is you point? Are you saying that lactic acid causes delayed
    onsel soreness? That theory has been disproven. Muscle acidosis may
    indeed result in temporary fatigue, but it critically allows bursts of
    energy which would not otherwise be possible. Lactate and acidosis
    are metabolized away when aerobic function resumes. I've read they
    are completely removed in 30 minutes to an hour. Did you read the
    article I mentioned about possible protective effects of muscle
    acidosis?

    As for supplementing with sodium bicarbonate, I think it is complete
    nonsense. Bear with me for a moment while I discuss a related health
    issue. One sign of acute mountain sickness is metabolic acidosis.
    Some mountaineers recommended antacid supplements to combat this
    phenomenon. Seems like a good theory, but the bloodstream is
    carefully buffered and isolated from the highly acidic stomach.
    Reducing stomach acidity with antacids doesn't affect blood acidity,
    and doesn't help with AMS.

    Now, muscles cells are one step further removed from the sodium
    bicarbonate (antacid) you recommend than the bloodstream. There is no
    reason to expect any change in muscle ph when taking your supplement.
    I can only speculate why horse trainers might use it - electrolyte
    replacement, hopeful thinking, or maybe the horses have indigestion.

    And again, this is assuming that acid buildup is bad. Go read the
    article for a less absolute perspective.

    > Re the Aitkins. My advive is to stop now! Try food combining though.
    > This is where you don't mix carbos and protein at the same time. You
    > adjust the levels. It is like a Aitkins sort off but you still get your
    > carbos. Do a web search.


    I agree that most people who claim to be on the Atkins diet are doing
    themselves harm. Here are some specific criticisms. There is a
    strong tendency for people to fall off the diet, gain back even more
    weight, and repeat. Hamburger patties and bacon are not what Atkins
    is about, in recent years they have been preaching less saturated fat
    (e.g. eat chicken breasts instead of spare ribs). The body needs some
    carbs to burn fat as fuel. Completely avoiding carbs does an athlete
    a double disservice, first by reducing both glycogen availability and
    fat burning ability. Arguments about glycemic index and glycemic load
    are usually oversimplified and often misleading (e.g. mixing different
    types of food can significantly moderate increases in blood glucose).

    On the positive side, the Atkins maintenance phase with moderate carb
    intake might be just the trick for someone looking to lose weight
    while exercising. But here's a bit of solid nutritional advice for:
    Simply adding fruits and vegetables to one's diet is often enough to
    induce weight loss without any other conscious actions.

    Ken
     
  7. S_Wallis wrote:


    You have ridden with me 2 times. I have no control over what “people”
    may have said.
    >>> Yes. I am not saying my perception (or theirs) is "valid." I know

    now, that the perceptions are probably wrong.

    Is it really necessary to rate the people you ride with?
    >>> To each his own. I am not "benevolent" like Eric L., Kris Holm or

    Dan Heaton. Like you rating my behavior, I rate other's ability to ride
    in an effort to try to learn from them and improve my riding.

    You recently commented in another thread that the local Coker riders
    weren’t that great,
    >>> Yes. I wanted to prevent people from thinking that I would be

    competing with extremely fast Coker riders. Guys like Nathan Hoover bust
    out 600 mile treks. AspenMike, enough said. Gizmoduck. If I had not
    mentioned that, I believe people would say (like in the past) that it
    would be impossible to keep up.

    What have you done?
    >>> Not much. I don't feel that I need to do much with this sport. If

    you'd like, I'll race you or something, but I have no aspirations other
    than to continue riding at about my current level.

    Wanting to see is okay. Badgering me about it when we ride is not.
    >>> I like to rib you, Scott. If you want me to stop, I guess I can do

    that for you. I guess I could find someone with thicker skin. Do I need
    to use kid gloves with the one formerly known as "The" Scott?

    Most of us want to have fun on a group muni ride, not have a four hour
    climbing and gapping clinic.
    >>> Sounds like a good subject for a pole. My guess is some people want

    to overcome challenges, teach or be taught - kind of like a team sport.
    At the time I started riding, the M-uni culture was geared towards being
    a learning environment. We'd go on urban rides "for fun."

    Fast spinning and blasting down rocky hills are a big adrenaline rush
    and will let you cover more miles in a ride. Neither gets better
    “automatically”, and could be considered every bit as important as
    climbing and gapping.
    >>> We all know it's easier to learn how to ride down stairs than to hop

    up them. We all know that fast spinning is learned "automatically:"
    Think back to the San Antonio ride. We spun for days following you.
    There was relatively less climbing, with most people opting to walk
    sometimes.
    I guess my point is that if one learns to climb well (and gap and hop)
    they will also get enough exposure to spinning and descending. When I
    say "automatically" I mean that the riders get exposed to (and more
    easily accomplish) the skills.

    I hope your legs are feeling better.
    >>> They are.


    Go climb Jester Hill.
    >>> I will. We now call that "new" trail "Jester Hill Trail." Officially

    it includes riding down (then riding the up and down trail) and back up
    the paved Jester Hill. Before today, I would beg you to come and show me
    your skillz.

    Ah, the good 'ole days.


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  8. I agree that most people who claim to be on the Atkins diet are doing
    themselves harm. Here are some specific criticisms. There is a
    strong tendency for people to fall off the diet, gain back even more
    weight, and repeat.
    >>> Perhaps some do, however, I see that I have trended downwards in

    weight (250 -> 217 -> 227 -> 210). At least those that diet are trying.
    I think that this "trial (and even error)" is much better than doing
    nothing at all.

    The body needs some carbs to burn fat as fuel. Completely avoiding
    carbs does an athlete a double disservice, first by reducing both
    glycogen availability and
    fat burning ability.
    >>> I do a modified diet. I typically don't avoid carbs altogether. I

    also usually mix this with a big increase of moderate excercise (as in
    riding off-road 5+ miles a day, or 10+ mile distances on road. Oddly,
    the diet that seemed to work "the best" is one where I eat anything from
    5-7 PM, and nothing else at any other time. I was able to maintain a
    stable weight, feel great, and get more productivity (because I wasn't
    worried about preparing and eating food 3-5 times a day). Things that
    seem to work for me, don't necessarily work for others.

    On the positive side, the Atkins maintenance phase with moderate carb
    intake might be just the trick for someone looking to lose weight while
    exercising.
    >>> That's what I do, and I drop weight visibly FAST.


    I must say here that I don't look "chubby." Most people say that I
    "don't need" to lose weight. However, in the coming months, I will be
    doing dance competitions and more M-uni. I know that dropping to my
    "ideal Internet weight" (found on numerous websites with various
    calculations) will make a significant difference in my performance. I
    haven't been 210 (for more than a few hours) for over a decade.


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  9. vivalargo

    vivalargo Guest

    This tread sort of amazes me. If you get sore from any athletic
    experience, it's almost certainly due to a fitness level that was not
    equal to the task. Soreness can be reduced through sage nutrition and
    tanking up on stuff like Cydomax and so forth before and after a ride,
    but if you're not in shape you'll still get sore no matter how you
    modulate your diet. A medical text might tell you "what" the soreness
    acually is, but the solution ain't found in the text, but on the trail
    that spanked you (with a few tubes of Gu to keep you going strong).

    JL


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  10. tomblackwood

    tomblackwood Guest

    ChangingLINKS.com wrote:
    > *I hope you realize that tossing out curse words only cheapens your
    > argument and weakens your position. Please check yourself before I
    > start competing with you on childishness. *


    Checked. Totally agree on that point...should have watched my language.
    I usually try to pay close attention to that. I think I need to stop
    posting late at night...or maybe period.


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  11. U-Turn

    U-Turn Guest

    tomblackwood wrote:
    > *Checked. Totally agree on that point...should have watched my
    > language. I usually try to pay close attention to that. I think I
    > need to stop posting late at night...or maybe period. *

    Late at night only, I hope.


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  12. vivalargo wrote:
    > *This tread sort of amazes me. If you get sore from any athletic
    > experience, it's almost certainly due to a fitness level that was not
    > equal to the task. JL *


    I agree. Please understand that I was also "amazed." We "only" rode 4
    miles or so. I have "ridden hard" before. I've climbed nearby hills
    before, even more. I've even rode much farther before and had cramps all
    over AND my stomach muscles locked up. Still, nothing prepared me for
    DOMS. I didn't know it existed. Like the article points out, I felt
    "fine" most of the time. I did "blow up" on the final climb. Even with
    that explosion I had NO clue that soreness would set in later. I was
    "caught unawares."

    Next time I get out there, I will be better prepared.


    Now that I know that there is NO post-tramatic speedy CURE,
    I hope this thread can serve as a heads up for other riders.
    Diet, training, flexibilty, and suppliment issues aside . . . beware of
    D.elayed O.nset M.uscle S.oreness


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  13. onebyone

    onebyone Guest

    Firstly. Are your sore leg muscles better yet? If so what did you do?

    But what is you point? Are you saying that lactic acid causes delayed
    onset soreness? That theory has been disproven. Muscle acidosis may
    indeed result in temporary fatigue, but it critically allows bursts of
    energy which would not otherwise be possible. Lactate and acidosis
    are metabolized away when aerobic function resumes. I've read they
    are completely removed in 30 minutes to an hour. Did you read the
    article I mentioned about possible protective effects of muscle
    acidosis?

    Yep, you are right. I am usually a late nighter and also not responsible
    for my ravings:(

    I am not an expert and do not pretend to be one, I am basing my
    suggestions on what I have seen in a sports person world (but not
    unicycling).

    As far as unicycling is concerned for me, I see it as a hobby,
    recreation and an interest, not sport. I was just offering misguided
    advice to a guy with sore legs.

    I now realise there is pain during an activity which can hinder
    performance and delayed pain. The Bi carb I mentioned is or was used for
    anerabic activities by some athletes to prevent acidosis. I knew some
    endurance athletes who had to do sprinting in stages who used it and
    thought it worked and also some sprint athletes who had to go through
    heats, semis, final etc in different craft within a few days. Some used
    Bi carb to get through the competition. I am niot saying it is right or
    legal, but they did!

    Do some searches for muscle soreness, acidosis etc. there are a lot of
    sites on it and many of them mention Bi carb of soda. I have read the
    article in your suggested link and it makes intersting reading.

    I am not absolute at all. I am more than open to suggestions, tips and
    readings and research. Thats how we learn and thats what I enjoy about
    these forums.


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  14. onebyone

    onebyone Guest

    Firstly. Are your sore leg muscles better yet? If so what did you do?


    To Ken
    Yep, you are right. I am usually a late nighter and also not responsible
    for my ravings:(

    I am not an expert and do not pretend to be one, I am basing my
    suggestions on what I have seen in a sports persons world (but not
    unicycling).

    As far as unicycling is concerned for me, I see it as a hobby,
    recreation and an interest, not sport. I was just offering misguided
    advice to a guy with sore legs.

    I now realise there is pain during an activity which can hinder
    performance and delayed pain. The Bi carb I mentioned is or was used for
    anerobic activities by some athletes to prevent acidosis.

    I knew some endurance athletes who had to do sprinting in stages during
    an event who used it and thought it worked and also some sprint athletes
    who had to go through heats, semis, final etc in different craft within
    a few days. Some used Bi carb to get through the competition and they
    felt it worked for them. I am not saying it is right or legal, but they
    did use it! and yes generally I am talking about anerobic activities.,

    Do some searches for muscle soreness, acidosis etc. there are a lot of
    sites on it and many of them mention Bi carb of soda. The concept could
    be out dated, I dont know.

    I have read the article in your suggested link and it makes intersting
    reading.

    I am not absolute at all. I am more than open to suggestions, tips and
    readings and research. That's how we learn and that's what I enjoy about
    these forums.

    My main point is go and see a health professional if a problem
    persists.

    All advice on just getting fit or being fit is right, I agree muscle
    onset soreness is usually caused by overdoing an activity in relation to
    fitness.

    Red wine probably helps just as much


    Cheers;) :) :) :) :)


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  15. onebyone

    onebyone Guest

  16. vivalargo

    vivalargo Guest

    One thing to remember--something I was recently reminded of--is that you
    can quickly fall out of tough Muni shape. Owing to blisering heat, and
    a vacation I took to Venezuela, I laid off Muniing and just rode street
    for about 6 weeks. And even though I was riding five days a week, when I
    returned to Santa Barbara last weekend I was gassed in no time and
    couldn't even ride stuff I easily handled just a few months ago.

    For hard rolling, my skills erode like crazy when I get tired.

    JL


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  17. U-Turn

    U-Turn Guest

    Last month, when I was in the middle of the Alps training, I started
    developing chronic heartburn or acid stomach. 'The Lance Armstrong
    Performance Program' (http://www.livewireunicycles.com/References.htm)
    mentions this briefly.

    I started taking an antacid before I left, and chewing another in the
    middle of my ride, which helped quite a bit. However, I had no
    intention for the effect to reach my legs, nor any idea whether it did.


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  18. Ken Cline

    Ken Cline Guest

    First, here's a anticle on DOMS from Phjysician in Sportsmedicine.
    [http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1999/01_99/muscle.htm].

    Now continuing the irrelevant argument...

    "onebyone" <[email protected]> writes:

    > Do some searches for muscle soreness, acidosis etc. there are a lot of
    > sites on it and many of them mention Bi carb of soda. The concept could
    > be out dated, I dont know.


    I didn't really find much relating bicarbonate and soreness. Reading
    between the lines, One might infer that bicarb could reduce transient
    soreness during anaerobic activity, but anaerobic pain has never
    slowed me down - it is the muscles refusing to work, the brain
    shutting down from lack of oxygen, and my limited heart and lungs that
    do that.

    You're right. There is widespread belief that sodium bicarbonate
    lowers blood ph and neutralizes lactic acid, improving high power,
    short duration exercise. Fortunately, I'm a skeptic and a
    preponderance of belief does not sway me. I want evidence. The
    evidence in favor of this is a bit sketchy. Sure, you can find
    reports that bicarb improved performace by 1-3% (a very significant
    claim), but other show no benefit. The dosage most often recommended
    (.3g/kg) is frequently accompanied by a warning about vomiting, cramps
    and diarrhea.

    Many athletes are easily swayed by poor research and bogus claims.
    Because of the side effects, it is at best difficult to do double
    blind studies of bicarb on human subject. In cases like this, I like
    to look at related areas to get a sense of whether the claims are
    plausible.

    Indeed, sodium bicarbonate has a history of over 50 years of use in
    clinical settings for patients with metabolic acidosis. The theory
    was that intravenious bicarb should correct the acidosis. This
    information would tend to support the case for bicarbonate in athletes
    if the practice had not ended 25 years ago. Here's an excerpt from a
    Critical Care article describing detrimental effects of (presumably)
    IV sodium bicarbonate administration:

    However, the potential value of sodium bicarbonate was called into
    question when more recent studies demonstrated that it induced
    venous hypercarbia, and decreases in tissue and cerebrospinal fluid
    pH, as well as provoking tissue hypoxia, circulatory congestion,
    hypernatremia, and hyperosmolality, with consequent brain
    damage[1,2,3,4,5,6]. Bicarbonate buffers may intensify rather than
    ameliorate cellular acidosis because sodium bicarbonate generates
    CO2 and thereby increases intracellular (hypercarbic) acidosis [7].

    [http://ccforum.com/content/1/2/51]

    In other words, injecting bicarbonate into the bloodstream increases -
    at leas in some cases - acidity elsewhere in the body.

    The bottom line is it sodium bicarbonate might benefit athletes, but
    likely has no effect on soreness. It has significant side effects and
    should be used at most occasionally.

    Ken
     
  19. onebyone

    onebyone Guest

    OK ChangingLINKS.com I probably gave you some bad advice based on some
    old athletes "old wives tales". By the way Changing links are you
    better?

    Now some books and sites say nothing will help recovery except time and
    rest, gentle exercise etc and others make great claims for recovery.
    What is the general consenus on recovery amino acids, vitamins etc.

    Just promoting general discussion. I have competed at a relatively high
    level in sprint and distance sports (world masters champ kayaking > 50
    2002), and during really heavy training have taken supplements including
    recovery aminos. Combined with a healthy diet, plenty of sleep etc I
    feel that they have worked. During that time I used a HRM, read heaps
    about using a HRM and training, most of it now forgotten. HRMs are great
    for really serious training.

    Uturn, I will have a good look at the link you put on your comment.
    Lance Armstrong is an inspiration.


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    onebyone

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  20. onebyone wrote:
    > *Firstly. Are your sore leg muscles better yet? If so what did you do?
    > *


    I'm going into day 6 and I still limp noticably when walking.
    Yesterday I rode 30 minutes at my top average speed.
    The riding was easier than walking (no limp :) ) and seemed to have no
    longterm effect.
    My right leg feels completely healed.
    My left "power" leg (the same leg I did all of the deep muscle massage
    on along with the hammering and various other test treatments) is still
    malfunctioning.

    I interviewed a couple of doctors, did some research without luck.
    I was unable to find a method to speed recovery.


    --
    ChangingLINKS.com - member

    Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
    Drew Brown
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