Lemond and Fignon

[tomUK]

I noticed that Lemond recently spoke out against Armstrong at a speach he gave (Coventry University). This is the part I don't get. He seems to make suggestion that the tour can't be won clean; however, he himself beat Fignon who confessed recently to his doping.

Was Lemond widely considered to be on the juice?

 

[classic1]

No. Vague rumours about 89, but nothing you would even call circumstantial evidence. Around the time he left PDM he claimed one of the reasons he left was to do with their questionable internal practices.

I've never heard him discuss what went on at Renault. Considering the questions over Hinault and Fignon back in the day he must have been blind or simply chooses not to discuss it. Mottet rode with Renault and is widely considered to have been clean, so maybe the doping there went on behind closed doors for a selected few.

 

[limerickman]

In support of LeMond : he was being courted by several major teams when he was going professional (TI Raleigh, Peugeot and Renault).
He said that he against TI and Peugeot, because of their stance on doping.
He did sign with Cyril Guimard and Renault - and he said at the time that he preferred Guimard because his teams were clean.

 

[jimmypop]

Lemond is the new strawman for the doping apologists who want to divert attention from the one-balled elephant in the room.

 

[slovakguy]

also, odd that wednesday passed and uci made no announcement worthy of report. how long before the accountants start to get suspicious about where the bio-passport money went?

 

[adamastor]

I noticed that Lemond recently spoke out against Armstrong at a speach he gave (Coventry University). This is the part I don't get. He seems to make suggestion that the tour can't be won clean; however, he himself beat Fignon who confessed recently to his doping.

Was Lemond widely considered to be on the juice?

Definitely not:

We're talking 2 worlds now. The pre-EPO era, and the EPO area. It is generally accepted, that in pre-EPO era, doping wouldn't make a champion out of a donkey.

It is not the same during the EPO era, where you could have a whole team overflying a race (example Gewiss in 2004).

The EPO period must have started around 1989-90, I don't think either Lemond nor Fignon ever used EPO themselves. Fignon admitted now having used amphetamines (don't know english translation) and cortisone. If had taken EPO, he would have put it in his book too, as he's got nothing to lose with his cancer. I know Fignon's comments as TV cycling commentator, he is not a bullshitter. Had he used EPO, he would have said it.

My point is, back in the 80's, a clean rider could really beat a juiced up rider (except we're talking Hinault or Merckx here).

It is known, that Lemond won in 1989 because he used a particular bike during the last time trial on Champs Elysees. Check youtube, and compare Lemond and his bike to Fignon and his old fashioned roadbike. I am convinced, that on that particular day, Fignon was still stronger than Lemond, but was beaten by a better, higher technology (although not wanting to diminish Lemond's talent, as I really admire him for all he did, and is doing).

Coming back to a statement about winning the Tour "clean", I can't help seeing how talented the Garmin guys are. If they really are racing clean, then there is hope that once a strong clean rider will beat the **** out of pumped up average rider...

Can't help thinking of Millar who did a fantastic Dauphine. I never knew him as such a good climber. My conclusion is, that

1) he has been training hard
2) the rest of the bunch is less strong/doped ? (apart from a few top riders, who looked really really fresh and easy there)

 

[poulidor]

Laurent Fignon was last week-end on 2 french TV speaking of his cancer.

His book was released before knowing he has a cancer.
Of course that is in french.

http://dopage.over-blog.org/article-32663383.html

http://sport.france2.fr/stade2/index-fr.php?date=2009/06/14&id_article=1349

He said that when they were racing in Colombia they have tried cocaine which was everyone, the race was held by narcos.

Surprinsgly he don't say that he used EPO even in 1993 when he was beaten by clearly less gifted riders.
He said too that riders never spoke of doping but only of preparation... Everyone did he ... like today, he said.
In 1998 he was a bit astonised by how far doping practices had grown.

He said too that Hinault was clearly stronger.

 

[tomUK]

Therefore is the likes of cortisone not really a major factor when we are talking performance increase?

As a cyclist who has been fairly dedicated to the sport since the age of 18, I am very suspicious of most riders. doing a 50 mile ride on sat and then again on sunday leaves me feeling rather dead. The thought of doing 100 miles daily for 21 days makes me wonder how these boys ever manage to do it clean. All seems a little odd to me.

Definitely not:

We're talking 2 worlds now. The pre-EPO era, and the EPO area. It is generally accepted, that in pre-EPO era, doping wouldn't make a champion out of a donkey.

It is not the same during the EPO era, where you could have a whole team overflying a race (example Gewiss in 2004).

The EPO period must have started around 1989-90, I don't think either Lemond nor Fignon ever used EPO themselves. Fignon admitted now having used amphetamines (don't know english translation) and cortisone. If had taken EPO, he would have put it in his book too, as he's got nothing to lose with his cancer. I know Fignon's comments as TV cycling commentator, he is not a bullshitter. Had he used EPO, he would have said it.

My point is, back in the 80's, a clean rider could really beat a juiced up rider (except we're talking Hinault or Merckx here).

It is known, that Lemond won in 1989 because he used a particular bike during the last time trial on Champs Elysees. Check youtube, and compare Lemond and his bike to Fignon and his old fashioned roadbike. I am convinced, that on that particular day, Fignon was still stronger than Lemond, but was beaten by a better, higher technology (although not wanting to diminish Lemond's talent, as I really admire him for all he did, and is doing).

Coming back to a statement about winning the Tour "clean", I can't help seeing how talented the Garmin guys are. If they really are racing clean, then there is hope that once a strong clean rider will beat the **** out of pumped up average rider...

Can't help thinking of Millar who did a fantastic Dauphine. I never knew him as such a good climber. My conclusion is, that

1) he has been training hard
2) the rest of the bunch is less strong/doped ? (apart from a few top riders, who looked really really fresh and easy there)

 

[swampy1970]

I noticed that Lemond recently spoke out against Armstrong at a speach he gave (Coventry University). This is the part I don't get. He seems to make suggestion that the tour can't be won clean; however, he himself beat Fignon who confessed recently to his doping.

Was Lemond widely considered to be on the juice?

Fignon didn't need to confess to doping - he was busted for amphetamine use in the latter half of 1989.

LeMond, poor chap, went from suffering from "B12 aenemia" in 1989 to "mitochondrial myopathy" both of which are supposed to be life long conditions but something that apparently he doesn't suffer from now... I want to try some of those B12 injections that he took in the 89 Giro that took him from being 45+ minutes off the back in some of the mountains stages to being top 3 for the final time trial before going onto win The Tour. Did he ever take EPO? Who knows... who cares?

 

[tomUK]

I guess I care else why would I ask the question!? Is there something wrong about asking a question as to which one is interested in the answer.

On the basis of what you wrote, who should care about your answer? Therefore, why did you bother writting it!?

Fignon didn't need to confess to doping - he was busted for amphetamine use in the latter half of 1989.

LeMond, poor chap, went from suffering from "B12 aenemia" in 1989 to "mitochondrial myopathy" both of which are supposed to be life long conditions but something that apparently he doesn't suffer from now... I want to try some of those B12 injections that he took in the 89 Giro that took him from being 45+ minutes off the back in some of the mountains stages to being top 3 for the final time trial before going onto win The Tour. Did he ever take EPO? Who knows... who cares?

 

[adamastor]

To Poulidor (sorry, bit off topic here)

6 +2 (according Ashenden) samples with EPO should have banned Lance Armstrong to start next TDF !

Hahaha, cool !

 

[swampy1970]

It is known, that Lemond won in 1989 because he used a particular bike during the last time trial on Champs Elysees. Check youtube, and compare Lemond and his bike to Fignon and his old fashioned roadbike. I am convinced, that on that particular day, Fignon was still stronger than Lemond, but was beaten by a better, higher technology (although not wanting to diminish Lemond's talent, as I really admire him for all he did, and is doing).

Fignon was nowhere near as strong as LeMond during that last time trial. Fignon was suffering and all over the bike, partly due to fatigue and partly due to saddle sores. Compare the sections where LeMond has to get out of the saddle up small rises in the road and accelerating out of corners - it was an awesome display of power. Would LeMond have won the final time trial with enough margin to win the Tour overall without the tribars? Probably not. Would he have beaten Fignon in that stage, most definately.

Fignon was a dumb-schmuck for not wearing his aero helmet. Guimard of all people should have slapped some sense into him before the start and knocked him upside the head with it.

Later in the same year at the World Champs, LeMond rode upto Fignon on the last lap up the big hill on the course and left him like he was standing still. The speed at which he caught Fignon was unreal as only moments before the cameras were infront of Fignon looking back down the road and there was noone in sight. Seconds later, after briefly seeing the lead group from another camera, we saw LeMond, riding a gear way bigger than Fignon, just take one look at the Frenchman and then just rode him off his wheel with apparent ease.

 

[Leafer]

LeMond, poor chap, went from suffering from "B12 aenemia" in 1989 to "mitochondrial myopathy" both of which are supposed to be life long conditions but something that apparently he doesn't suffer from now...

Mainly he was suffering from a shortage of EPO.

 

[classic1]

Fignon was nowhere near as strong as LeMond during that last time trial. Fignon was suffering and all over the bike, partly due to fatigue and partly due to saddle sores. Compare the sections where LeMond has to get out of the saddle up small rises in the road and accelerating out of corners - it was an awesome display of power. Would LeMond have won the final time trial with enough margin to win the Tour overall without the tribars? Probably not. Would he have beaten Fignon in that stage, most definately.

Fignon was a dumb-schmuck for not wearing his aero helmet. Guimard of all people should have slapped some sense into him before the start and knocked him upside the head with it.

Fignon still average 53km/h and finished 3rd in the TT, but yes, he should have worn a helmet. It may have made the difference between winning an losing.

Later in the same year at the World Champs, LeMond rode upto Fignon on the last lap up the big hill on the course and left him like he was standing still. The speed at which he caught Fignon was unreal as only moments before the cameras were infront of Fignon looking back down the road and there was noone in sight. Seconds later, after briefly seeing the lead group from another camera, we saw LeMond, riding a gear way bigger than Fignon, just take one look at the Frenchman and then just rode him off his wheel with apparent ease.

I'm sure Lemond was stronger but not that much stronger. Fignon attacked impressively but too early on the hill and got the staggers. Lemond was smarter and timed his attack so that it carried him all the way over the top of the climb.

The unlucky one IMO was Bauer. He was all but there with the leaders (was in front of Kelly, who made the break) and punctured. Poor *******. I reckon that for Bauer that was the world championship that got away, not 1988.

 

[Tech72]

Looking back at some of the biggest races of the late 80's, Bauer was a factor in so many of them but never took the win. The perpetual second/third. Nevertheless, Bauer was a class act throughout his career.

Off topic: Try to forget that hideous specially built, long wheelbase "easy rider" Eddy Merckx bike he used at Paris-Roubaix. That bike was an eye-sore. Seemed like the poor guy was grasping for straws at the trailing end of a great career. All photos of the bike probably had to be confiscated and destroyed.

 

[limerickman]

Looking back at some of the biggest races of the late 80's, Bauer was a factor in so many of them but never took the win. The perpetual second/third. Nevertheless, Bauer was a class act throughout his career.

Off topic: Try to forget that hideous specially built, long wheelbase "easy rider" Eddy Merckx bike he used at Paris-Roubaix. That bike was an eye-sore. Seemed like the poor guy was grasping for straws at the trailing end of a great career. All photos of the bike probably had to be confiscated and destroyed.

off topic.
Agreed re Merckx P-R bike. Dreadful to look at!

 

[poulidor]

Fignon still average 53km/h and finished 3rd in the TT, but yes, he should have worn a helmet. It may have made the difference between winning an losing.

Some people are saying that Lemond had a 2 sec/km aerodynamic advantage on that stage

 

[Anticyclone]

Coming back to a statement about winning the Tour "clean", I can't help seeing how talented the Garmin guys are. If they really are racing clean, then there is hope that once a strong clean rider will beat the **** out of pumped up average rider...

Can't help thinking of Millar who did a fantastic Dauphine. I never knew him as such a good climber. My conclusion is, that

1) he has been training hard
2) the rest of the bunch is less strong/doped ? (apart from a few top riders, who looked really really fresh and easy there)

I think that Millar is in pretty much top condition having done only half the Giro. Interesting that his performances did dip away after the Ventoux stage suggesting that he was pushing it a bit too hard compared to others. Maybe he is aiming to peak at the Dauphine and in the first week of the tour? Looks like Garmin's best chance of yellow will be to have people do well in the individual TT and then do well in the team TT.

 

[Flyer]

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Flyer]

I noticed that Lemond recently spoke out against Armstrong at a speach he gave (Coventry University). This is the part I don't get. He seems to make suggestion that the tour can't be won clean; however, he himself beat Fignon who confessed recently to his doping.

Was Lemond widely considered to be on the juice?

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee