l'equipe publishes report... looks damming for Ullrich and Basso...

[whiteboytrash]

Makes you wonder if both Basso and Ullrich were blood doping wouldn't they just be cancelling each other out ? Why didn't they just chat and agree not to dope because neither of them had the advantage.....?

___________
Evidence seized at the Madrid labratory of Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes on May 23 included a freezer that stored 96 blood pouches, 20 pouches of plasma. A seperate raid netted a similar amount. Each pouch was labeled with a date, a number, and a pseudonym.
Documents and taped telephone conversation enabled investigators to link the following code numbers to specific riders: Jan Ullrich (1), Ivan Basso (2), Santiago Botero (4), Oscar Sevilla (5), Jose Ignacio Gutierrez (12), Marcos Serrano (13), Angel Vicioso (16), Constantino Zaballa (19), Jörg Jaksche (20).

On Ullrich: the first name "Jan" appears four times in a document that lists products with code names, including blood, growth hormones, and testosterone patches.

On Ullrich's suspended T-Mobile manager Rudy Pevenage: On May 17, Fuentes gets an SMS from a Belgian telephone with the following text "Friend, can we talk a moment? Rudicio." The next day - May 18 - Fuentes gets a call from the same number and says he's busy and asks when he call back. The person on the other end of the line says "Tonight. Right now, we have a time trial." The same day, Jan Ullrich wins the individual time trial on the Giro d'Italia.

On Basso: In a May 14 wiretapped phone conversation with Dr. Fuentes, Communidad Valencia director José Ignacio Labarta associates Basso's name to Gutierrez. The nickname "Birillo" is used for the Tour of Italy winner and that enables police to link Basso to his blood pouches.

Regarding Astana rider Joseba Beloki: One document refers to him by name with the annotation "HMG-LEPORI, IGF-I, testosterone patches, growth hormones, EPO, and anabolic substances coordinated with his blood transfusion programme.

Regarding Ullrich's team-mate Oscar Sevilla: Investigators spotted him arriving May 13 at the lab and four blood pouches with that date on it correspond to that visit. Same story, different days for Santiago Botero and Jörg Jaksche.

Regarding ex-Liberty Seguros manager Manolo Saiz: Wiretap of a May 18 conversation between Labarta and Fuentes: "Listen, the fat man [Manolo Saiz] called me, I don't want to say everything over the phone, but we've agreed on a day so he can pay me."

 

[Orla_24]

Good God.

I don't know if to be shocked at the doping, or the fact the code names were so bloody obvious.

 

[azdroptop]

So how long have these guys been dancing with this doctor?

 

[sydsyd]

I think it looks damaging for Pevenage for sure. I suspect we will see Basso vindicated as the evidence looks pretty shady. As for Jan, maybe 50/50. The guys actually seen on the videotape or audio interacting with Fuentes are pretty much screwed and will have a harder time proving their innocence.

 

[bobke]

I think it looks damaging for Pevenage for sure. I suspect we will see Basso vindicated as the evidence looks pretty shady. As for Jan, maybe 50/50. The guys actually seen on the videotape or audio interacting with Fuentes are pretty much screwed and will have a harder time proving their innocence.

unfortunately for this race Valverde wasn't implicates even though he was clearly working with Fuentes on Kelme 2 years ago...he is gonna podium r win and thats too bad...

I think Floyd wins, Valverde 2 or 3 and Levi Evans 3 or 4.

 

[musette]

Also, there are suggestions Birillo may be the name of Basso's dog. One of the cyclists who doped is referred to as Friend of Birillo. I wonder who that might be.

 

[tcklyde]

I think it looks damaging for Pevenage for sure. I suspect we will see Basso vindicated as the evidence looks pretty shady. As for Jan, maybe 50/50. The guys actually seen on the videotape or audio interacting with Fuentes are pretty much screwed and will have a harder time proving their innocence.

The evidence looks shady? Did we just read the same thing? I mean, might not lock the guy up, but he's going to be banned.

 

[Bro Deal]

The thing that suprises me is we are not seeing DNA test results. That will seal the deal for Basso and Ullrich.

I would have liked to see some sort of link between "JAN" and "rudico" like the two appearing in the same document, clearing indicating a connection. Right now I think the JAN is most likely the Jan Hruska, who rode for ONCE in 2002 and 2003, and rode for Liberty Seguros in 2004 and 2005.

Ullrich looks like he has the greatest chance of dodging the bullet, assuming his DNA does not match the blood. If he is involved it will require Pevenage to fall on his sword and refuse to cooperate.

I do find it a little hard to believe that they cannot get the goods on Valverde. It looks like the entire Kelme/Communidad Valencia team was involved for several years and it looks like they have extensive records of 2004 when Valverde was riding for Kelme. From what I have seen so far the Valverde evidence looks about as strong as the evidence that specifically refers to Jan Ullrich.

 

[wolfix]

I think the link to Rudy is what really condemns JU in the eyes iof the teams that threw out JU. The TDF did not throw out JU/Basso. The teams did. There was a report that had telephone records linked to Rudy P calling the doctor. That condemns JU right away. Rudy P is not calling the doctor about a cold medicine. Then the bags linked to a #1 JAN and records of payments from son of Rudy.
And since they have blood records of JU available to them from last years TDF .... And it was reported this was done to match thr names to the riders...
The blood records results have not been released. But this is a criminal case. The evidence does not have toi be released. The Spanish civil authorities really do not care about what cycling fans think. Nor should they.
Plus there is a good chance that most of the team leaders know who is doping. I would be surprised that JU and Basso was not assumed by all in cycling peloton to be dopers if the doping is as widespread as it may be.

 

[sydsyd]

The evidence looks shady? Did we just read the same thing? I mean, might not lock the guy up, but he's going to be banned.

Shady as in, there's not much there to base a banning on. From what I have read so far (based on leaks to newspapers, let's not forget) is that Basso's name was mentioned in a phone call. I haven't seen anything that has said Basso's DNA matched any blood bags or that Basso's voice was recorded in a phone call or Basso was videotaped entering Fuente's office. I think they'd need something more than his name being mentioned in a phone call to ban him.

Now perhaps you've seen the actual report, I'm basing my comments on what I've seen in the press. And, you know, I don't know that I yet consider an article in L'Equipe to be particularly reliable.

 

[tcklyde]

The thing that suprises me is we are not seeing DNA test results. That will seal the deal for Basso and Ullrich.

I would have liked to see some sort of link between "JAN" and "rudico" like the two appearing in the same document, clearing indicating a connection. Right now I think the JAN is most likely the Jan Hruska, who rode for ONCE in 2002 and 2003, and rode for Liberty Seguros in 2004 and 2005.

Ullrich looks like he has the greatest chance of dodging the bullet, assuming his DNA does not match the blood. If he is involved it will require Pevenage to fall on his sword and refuse to cooperate.

I dunno, would they Fuentes really give Jan Hruska the code # 1 and Ivan Basso the code #2? Hruska's not even on a ProTour team this year! And Peverage isn't calling Fuentes just to chat on the day of the Giro TT.

On the other hand, Hruska did fail a blood test earlier this year.

 

[sydsyd]

Plus there is a good chance that most of the team leaders know who is doping. I would be surprised that JU and Basso was not assumed by all in cycling peloton to be dopers if the doping is as widespread as it may be.

This is really interesting. So far, the riders all appear to be shocked and suprised. They could just be bluffing. But, read Bobby Julich's comments in his espn.com interview. He seems to be genuinely gobsmacked by the allegations against Basso. I find it hard to believe that someone like Bobby would fake that emotion if he really knew that Basso was a doper. I don't know what to think any more.

 

[whiteboytrash]

You should of seen Riis interviewed on EuroSport.... he was hiding someting ! He couldn't find his words... they asked him "You always seem so close to Ivan, like a father, infact you claim the realtionship is like a father, wouldn't you know if this was happening to Ivan ?" Riis had nothing to say... just a few fumbled words....

This is really interesting. So far, the riders all appear to be shocked and suprised. They could just be bluffing. But, read Bobby Julich's comments in his espn.com interview. He seems to be genuinely gobsmacked by the allegations against Basso. I find it hard to believe that someone like Bobby would fake that emotion if he really knew that Basso was a doper. I don't know what to think any more.

 

[wolfix]

In Basso's case it does look weak. The name on the bags did indicate his dog though.....
Wait........... Didn't Tyler trying blame his dog? And now we have Basso's dog name coming up.... Maybe the dope was for the dogs.

Deep down I have this feeling that the evidence is there, that they just have not released it. And Riis is letting go of Basso so when it is confirmed Riis can go about his business. It would look bad on Riis to defend Basso to the end right now. Plus it was the other teams that voted too. It really did not matter what Riis wanted.
If Riis is acknowledged to have known this, he faces a lifetime ban. The penalties are fiercer for the management.
TM did it before the vote.

 

[JohnDDD]

What I find hard to believe is that Bjarne Riis is actually trying to be clean these days. I mean the guy rode with all the big doping teams like Ariostea and Gewiss and his alleged nickname was Mr. 60%. I've heard they had to wake him up in the middle of the night just to keep his heart from stopping because his blood was so thick.

Yes, rumours, I know, but probably not without some truth to it. Back in 1996 Riis was riding with Ullrich and there has been a former professional who has accused both Riis and Ullrich of taking dope. Of course, this was kind of standard in those days, but Riis still seemed like one of the big dopers.

Now the name of Riis protegé Ivan Basso appears on a list together with Riis former team mate, Jan Ullrich.

Seems like these guys keep running into each other.

The biggest problem is that the team bosses still can't be trusted. First of course Manolo Saiz, who has been doping his riders for more than 10 years. It's not a coincidence he made time trials his speciality, which are perfectly fit for blood doping!

Guys like Dufaux, Zülle and Neil Stephens - all Festina 98 - used to ride for him. But also Erik Breukink, team boss of Rabobank, an excellent time trialist and suspected in the 1991 PDM doping affaire, and Johan Bruyneel, now the boss of the already famous Discovery Channel team!

Then of course there is Patrick Lefévre, team boss of Quick-Step and former boss of Mapei. Mapei had dopers like Beltran, Cioni, Museeuw, Nardello, Olano, Rominger, Tafi and Vandenbroucke.

Now most of these riders are gone, but these team bosses are still there. Lefévre LOOKS like he's making a real effort against doping, and also Breukink seems honest and hoping for a clean sport. But who tells me we can trust these people? Nobody's ever come clean about the past, when the entire peloton was doping, and now all of sudden these guys seem the ones to be rooting for a clean sport.

In a way it's wonderful that there might be a realistic chance people like this have come to deeper insights into the true meaning of sport and that they might really have changed their ways. On the other hand, it's hard for me to trust Riis when he appears to be so anti-dope and when Lefévre and Museeuw deny doping allegations from the past.

 

[bored_again]

One of the interesting things about the Operacion Puerto case is what it reveals about team dynamics. Whilst CV appear to have had the majority of the team involved it isn't that clearcut for other teams. A high proportion of the named riders are from Astana, understandably considering Saiz's involvement, but not their leaders, Vinokourov or Kashechkin. Likewise Riis claims he had no idea Basso was involved, and T Mobile didn't know about Ullrich or Sevilla. If the claims are true, then what does this say about team management. Do they leave their riders alone to do what they want and then act suprised when something comes out? Whilst obviously the riders are primarily at fault if the story is true do the management have to bear some responsibility too? Or, after Festina, is this just a handy way of teams dissasociating themselves from the problem?

 

[Bro Deal]

What I find hard to believe is that Bjarne Riis is actually trying to be clean these days. I mean the guy rode with all the big doping teams like Ariostea and Gewiss and his alleged nickname was Mr. 60%. I've heard they had to wake him up in the middle of the night just to keep his heart from stopping because his blood was so thick.

Yes, rumours, I know, but probably not without some truth to it. Back in 1996 Riis was riding with Ullrich and there has been a former professional who has accused both Riis and Ullrich of taking dope. Of course, this was kind of standard in those days, but Riis still seemed like one of the big dopers.

Now the name of Riis protegé Ivan Basso appears on a list together with Riis former team mate, Jan Ullrich.

Seems like these guys keep running into each other.

The biggest problem is that the team bosses still can't be trusted. First of course Manolo Saiz, who has been doping his riders for more than 10 years. It's not a coincidence he made time trials his speciality, which are perfectly fit for blood doping!

Guys like Dufaux, Zülle and Neil Stephens - all Festina 98 - used to ride for him. But also Erik Breukink, team boss of Rabobank, an excellent time trialist and suspected in the 1991 PDM doping affaire, and Johan Bruyneel, now the boss of the already famous Discovery Channel team!

Then of course there is Patrick Lefévre, team boss of Quick-Step and former boss of Mapei. Mapei had dopers like Beltran, Cioni, Museeuw, Nardello, Olano, Rominger, Tafi and Vandenbroucke.

Now most of these riders are gone, but these team bosses are still there. Lefévre LOOKS like he's making a real effort against doping, and also Breukink seems honest and hoping for a clean sport. But who tells me we can trust these people? Nobody's ever come clean about the past, when the entire peloton was doping, and now all of sudden these guys seem the ones to be rooting for a clean sport.

In a way it's wonderful that there might be a realistic chance people like this have come to deeper insights into the true meaning of sport and that they might really have changed their ways. On the other hand, it's hard for me to trust Riis when he appears to be so anti-dope and when Lefévre and Museeuw deny doping allegations from the past.

Good points. I have read some things that indicate that Breukink was personally anti-dope and was probably a clean rider--or as clean as you can get in pro cycling during that time.

The most damning thing is that your set of dopers who are now in positions of power in the sport just scratches the surface. Most of who you listed are from the Spanish and Belgian side of the sport. What about Italy, where this whole mess with scientifcally administered EPO really started? My favorite is Mauro Gianetti, a man who must have been suffering from some sort of madness when he injected himself with perfluorocarbons. He promptly went into anaphylactic shock and nearly died. He is now the manager of Saunier Duval.

 

[Bro Deal]

One of the interesting things about the Operacion Puerto case is what it reveals about team dynamics.

Yes. Some teams appear to still have team supported doping programs. On others it is every man for himself. This probably also explains why riders often experience sudden changes in performance levels when they switch teams. Botero and Sevilla go from Kelme to T-Mobile and cannot reach anywhere close to the form they once had. Botero leaves T-Mobile, goes to Phonak, and he is back on top. Savoldelli suffers a similar slump when he goes to T-Mobile and has a remarkable recovery when he joins Discovery. Pros with their careers in the dump go to CSC and they not only reach their old levels but perform better than they ever have before. Et cetera. Et cetera.

 

[limerickman]

Good points. I have read some things that indicate that Breukink was personally anti-dope and was probably a clean rider--or as clean as you can get in pro cycling during that time.

The most damning thing is that your set of dopers who are now in positions of power in the sport just scratches the surface. Most of who you listed are from the Spanish and Belgian side of the sport. What about Italy, where this whole mess with scientifcally administered EPO really started? My favorite is Mauro Gianetti, a man who must have been suffering from some sort of madness when he injected himself with perfluorocarbons. He promptly went into anaphylactic shock and nearly died. He is now the manager of Saunier Duval.

Agree 100%.

Several managers, of whom Saiz is one, have always adopted an ambiguous stance as regards dopage.

Good to have informed contributions from you Bro - and JohnDDD.

You both know your stuff.

 

[JohnDDD]

Good points. I have read some things that indicate that Breukink was personally anti-dope and was probably a clean rider--or as clean as you can get in pro cycling during that time.

The most damning thing is that your set of dopers who are now in positions of power in the sport just scratches the surface. Most of who you listed are from the Spanish and Belgian side of the sport. What about Italy, where this whole mess with scientifcally administered EPO really started? My favorite is Mauro Gianetti, a man who must have been suffering from some sort of madness when he injected himself with perfluorocarbons. He promptly went into anaphylactic shock and nearly died. He is now the manager of Saunier Duval.

Right...I just gave a few examples...the same thing could indeed be said about a lot of other people. Gianetti is a good example.

The problem is that these people all act like they don't know and have never known. In Holland we have this saying about the Germans; it is that they always say "Wir haben es nicht gewusst", which means "we didn't know (it)". It refers to the war, when all Jews were being transported to the camps and later many Germans said (or rather lied?) that they didn't know anything about what was going on.

In 1998, everyone acted surprised, and I'm sure nobody really was. In 2006 everyone's surprised again, but can I still trust the same people from 1998?