Lesson in Camoflage (sp?)



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Richard Bates

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Spelling corrections most welcome.

Driving my dad to the airport early this morning I learned (fortunately to noone's expense) that
when a well lit cyclist is travelling at 90 degrees to me as I approch a roundabout, the lights can
be seemingly invisible, and the reflective scotchlite worn by the cyclist can blend in with the
black and white chevrons behind him/her.

I shall be more careful in future, I hope.

Love and macaroni cheese from Rich x

--
Two fish suddenly swim into a brick wall. Damn! To reply put only the word "richard" before
the @ sign
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
Richard Bates <[email protected]> wrote:
> Spelling corrections most welcome.
>
> Driving my dad to the airport early this morning I learned (fortunately to noone's expense) that
> when a well lit cyclist is travelling at 90 degrees to me as I approch a roundabout, the lights
> can be seemingly invisible, and the reflective scotchlite worn by the cyclist can blend in with
> the black and white chevrons behind him/her.
>

And there goes another cyclist thinking "I was lit up like a Christmas tree with lights and
reflective clothing" and he still did a SMIDSY ;-)

Tony

--
http://www.raven-family.com

"I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them
their job."

Samuel Goldwyn
 
R

Richard Bates

Guest
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:20:57 -0000, "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> in
<[email protected]> wrote:

>And there goes another cyclist thinking "I was lit up like a Christmas tree with lights and
>reflective clothing" and he still did a SMIDSY ;-)

In a positive way, it has made me think about how visible I *really* am when cycling, as opposed to
how visible I *think* I am.

Not sure what the outcome of this thinking will be, but it has none the less made me think.

Love and illumination from Rich x

--
Two fish suddenly swim into a brick wall. Damn! To reply put only the word "richard" before
the @ sign
 
J

Jim King

Guest
Richard Bates wrote:
> In a positive way, it has made me think about how visible I *really* am when cycling, as opposed
> to how visible I *think* I am.
>

I asked SWMBO to take a photo of me in the car headlights, with all my kit on and sat on the
bike. Photos from front, back and side. Interesting to see the results. I changed some of the
reflective stuff after that, so I now have red visible from the back, white from the front and
yellow/orange from the sides. Particularly I changed the reflective bands on my wrists and ankles
from white to yellow.

--
Jim King [email protected] Infineon Technologies UK Ltd. Swindon, U.K.
 
A

Adrian Boliston

Guest
"Richard Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Spelling corrections most welcome.
>
> Driving my dad to the airport early this morning I learned (fortunately to noone's expense) that
> when a well lit cyclist is travelling at 90 degrees to me as I approch a roundabout, the lights
> can be seemingly invisible...

I never trust a car approaching from the side, as cycle lights are very directional, (with little
side scatter) i'm afraid!
 
J

Jay

Guest
> >
> > Driving my dad to the airport early this morning I learned (fortunately to noone's expense) that
> > when a well lit cyclist is travelling at 90 degrees to me as I approch a roundabout, the lights
> > can be seemingly invisible...
>
> I never trust a car approaching from the side, as cycle lights are very directional, (with little
> side scatter) i'm afraid!
>
I nearly bought some lights from one of the catalogue shops, index I think. They fit like reflectors
into/on to the spokes of a wheel and are red and boomerang shaped (for want of a better
description). I don't know how good they are and I was worried about damaging my wheel fitting them
(newbie, sorry) but what is the general opinions of this type of light?

Jay
 
C

Call Me Bob

Guest
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:17:28 -0000, "Adrian Boliston" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I never trust a car approaching from the side, as cycle lights are very directional, (with little
>side scatter) i'm afraid!

I'd have thought tyres with reflective sidewalls would be very good at guarding against side-on
invisibility.

Was thinking that when my current commuting tyres wear out (which will be a fair while yet) I'd give
some Marathon slicks a try, they come with reflective sidewalls. Anything to help with the SMIDSYs.

Bob
--
Mail address is spam trapped To reply by email remove the beverage
 
E

Elyob

Guest
"Jay" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Driving my dad to the airport early this morning I learned (fortunately to noone's expense)
> > > that when a well lit cyclist is travelling at 90 degrees to me as I approch a roundabout, the
> > > lights can be seemingly invisible...
> >
> > I never trust a car approaching from the side, as cycle lights are very directional, (with
> > little side scatter) i'm afraid!
> >
> I nearly bought some lights from one of the catalogue shops, index I
think.
> They fit like reflectors into/on to the spokes of a wheel and are red and boomerang shaped (for
> want of a better description). I don't know how good they are and I was worried about damaging my
> wheel fitting them (newbie, sorry) but what is the general opinions of this type of light?
>

I was interested in the tirefly but uses a schraeder 'adapter', they're really built for Presta
valves ...

Anyone seen any in use?
 
A

Adrian Boliston

Guest
"Call me Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I'd have thought tyres with reflective sidewalls would be very good at guarding against side-on
> invisibility.

The trouble I can see is that a car approaching from the left (eg at a roundabout) will have it's
beam shining at the bit of road *in front of you* rather than actually AT you, so the retro
reflection will not really work that well. If the car only sees you once you are directly in front
then it would probably be far too late anyway.
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
Adrian Boliston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The trouble I can see is that a car approaching from the left (eg at a roundabout) will have it's
> beam shining at the bit of road *in front of you* rather than actually AT you, so the retro
> reflection will not really work that well. If the car only sees you once you are directly in front
> then it would probably be far too late anyway.

Wear a helmet light - doesn't need to be that powerful. Look at driver. He will see you. He still
may not register you.

Tony

--
http://www.raven-family.com

"I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them
their job."

Samuel Goldwyn
 
R

Richard Bates

Guest
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:25:36 -0000, "Adrian Boliston" <[email protected]> in
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The trouble I can see is that a car approaching from the left (eg at a roundabout) will have it's
>beam shining at the bit of road *in front of you* rather than actually AT you, so the retro
>reflection will not really work that well. If the car only sees you once you are directly in front
>then it would probably be far too late anyway.

From a distance, I think that sidewall reflectors would be a good idea, as car headlights have a
wider spread. Generally I think that the black and white chevrons are at torso height rather than
leg/tyre height, so it may prove valuable.

But like I said, it has made think about both my driving and cycling!

Rich x

--
Two fish suddenly swim into a brick wall. Damn! To reply put only the word "richard" before
the @ sign
 
D

Dave

Guest
"Richard Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Spelling corrections most welcome.
>
> Driving my dad to the airport early this morning I learned (fortunately to noone's expense) that
> when a well lit cyclist is travelling at 90 degrees to me as I approch a roundabout, the lights
> can be seemingly invisible, and the reflective scotchlite worn by the cyclist can blend in with
> the black and white chevrons behind him/her.
>
> I shall be more careful in future, I hope.
>
> Love and macaroni cheese from Rich x
>
> --
> Two fish suddenly swim into a brick wall. Damn! To reply put only the word "richard" before
> the @ sign

But surely in a car you are a car driver, so not supposed to see cyclists anyway...(who do they
think they are on my bloody road, or pavement, bloody lycra louts, always getting in the way at
ridiculously slow speeds, haven't paid any *road tax* etcetc.....) cheers, Dave sometime driver,
sometime cyclist, sometime pedestrian...always right ;-)
 
D

Danny Colyer

Guest
Jay wrote:
> I nearly bought some lights from one of the catalogue shops, index I think. They fit like
> reflectors into/on to the spokes of a wheel and are red and boomerang shaped (for want of a better
> description). I don't know how good they are and I was worried about damaging my wheel fitting
> them (newbie, sorry) but what is the general opinions of this type of light?

Personally I think they're a good idea, but bear in mind that they're illegal. The lighting regs
state that, with certain exceptions "no person shall use .... a lamp, reflector or marking which is
capable of being moved by swivelling, deflecting or otherwise while the vehicle is in motion."

The specified exceptions include pedal reflectors and wheel reflectors, but not spoke lights.
However, the regs are currently under review and the chances are that such lights will soon be
made legal.

Years ago I tried a set of orange lights that fitted to my spokes. They were designed to come on
automatically when the wheel was moving. They were great when they worked, unfortunately they flew
off every time I hit a bump at more than about 10mph
:-(

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny ) Recumbent cycle page:
http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine
 
R

Richard Bates

Guest
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:35:24 -0000, "Simon Mason" <[email protected]> in
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Richard Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>Yer clock's about 18 hours too fast still. Simon
>
That's cos my PC has been on all day. If I had turned it off the clock would probably be only 12
hours too fast. Think my CMOS battery may be dead.

--
Two fish suddenly swim into a brick wall. Damn! To reply put only the word "richard" before
the @ sign
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Personally I think they're a good idea, but bear in mind that they're illegal. The lighting regs
> state that, with certain exceptions "no person shall use .... a lamp, reflector or marking which
> is capable of being moved by swivelling, deflecting or otherwise while the vehicle is in motion."
>

So whats the legality of my handlebar mounted lights? They swivel with the steering

Tony

--
http://www.raven-family.com

"I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them
their job."

Samuel Goldwyn
 
S

Simon Mason

Guest
"Richard Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:35:24 -0000, "Simon Mason" <[email protected]> in
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Richard Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >
> >Yer clock's about 18 hours too fast still. Simon
> >
> That's cos my PC has been on all day. If I had turned it off the clock would probably be only 12
> hours too fast. Think my CMOS battery may be dead.

You could use this program which would keep the clock up to date automatically :)
http://www.worldtimeserver.com/atomic-clock/ Simon
 
J

Jeremy Parker

Guest
Rich' Bates says:

> Driving my dad to the airport early this morning I learned (fortunately to noone's expense) that
> when a well lit cyclist is travelling at 90 degrees to me as I approch a roundabout, the lights
> can be seemingly invisible, and the reflective scotchlite worn by the cyclist can blend in with
> the black and white chevrons behind him/her.

The Cyclists Touring Club Publication, "Cyclists and aRoundabouts, a review of the Literature" says,
section 7.10,

"Vehicle entering/cyclist circulating accidents are by far the most common type of cyclist accident
at roundabouts. Given that circulating traffic has priority over entering vehicles, it would appear
that drivers are predominantly at fault. There is a need for research into the detail of cylist
accidents at roundabouts, particularly in terms of accident severity, vehicle speeds, driver/cyclist
characteristics and the paths of the motor vehicle and cyclist involved."

What the report doesn't say is anything about this being a problem only at night. Perhaps it is just
as bad during the day.

That CTC report was written twelve years ago. I don't think the research the report calls for has
ever been done. A Dr Paul Rosen at York U has apparently just come out with a review of bike
research, and what other research is needed, but I haven't read it. Supposedly it's at
<http://www.york.ac.uk/org/satsu/Projects/whitehall/>

Jeremy Parker
 
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Danny Colyer

Guest
Tony Raven wondered:
> So whats the legality of my handlebar mounted lights? They swivel with the steering

They're covered by one of the exceptions: "a lamp or reflector which can be deflected to the side by
the movement of, although not necessarily through the same angle as, the front wheel or wheels of
the vehicle when turned for the purpose of steering the vehicle"

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_3.htm

Although frankly, Tony, since you generally seem to be among the most knowledgeable people here on
legal issues, I wonder if you're asking that simply to play Devil's Advocate?

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny ) Recumbent cycle page:
http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine
 
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