Letter in defence

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Simon Mason, Feb 10, 2003.

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  1. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    Since I had a letter published in our local rag complaining about car drivers not giving way to
    cyclists on roundabouts, there have been numerous anti bike letters, along the lines of "you don't
    pay any road tax, so we can knock you down." In tonight's edition I was therefore pleased to see the
    local CTC rep sticking up for us:

    http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zctc.htm

    --
    Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W http://www.simonmason.karoo.net
     
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  2. "Simon Mason" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Since I had a letter published in our local rag complaining about car drivers not giving way to
    > cyclists on roundabouts, there have been numerous anti bike letters, along the lines of "you don't
    > pay any road tax, so we can knock you down."

    I wonder if they would drive straight into a car if they noticed it had no tax disc?
     
  3. Fortyeight16

    Fortyeight16 Guest

    "Adrian Boliston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > I wonder if they would drive straight into a car if they noticed it had no
    tax
    > disc?

    classic cars must be fair game too
     
  4. Stephen \

    Stephen \ Guest

    "Simon Mason" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Since I had a letter published in our local rag complaining about car drivers not giving way to
    > cyclists on roundabouts, there have been
    numerous
    > anti bike letters, along the lines of "you don't pay any road tax, so we
    can
    > knock you down." In tonight's edition I was therefore pleased to see the local CTC rep sticking
    > up for us:
    >
    > http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zctc.htm
    >
    I really don't know what's happened to this country over the last year or so in terms of paying for
    things. It seems everything we now do has to be paid for individually rather than through tax and if
    we don't directly benefit we feel cheated that someone else might. I'm taling about schools,
    universities, NHS, roads, firefighters etc etc. Really annoying.
     
  5. Allen Foster

    Allen Foster Guest

    Contrary to what car drivers think, there is no such thing as 'road tax'. It's called vehicle excise
    duty and does not, contrary to what most people think, directly pay for the provision of roads and
    their maintenance. Just because someone is paying 'road tax' doesn't mean they have any more rights
    than cyclists.

    Allen

    On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:28:41 -0000, "Simon Mason" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Since I had a letter published in our local rag complaining about car drivers not giving way to
    >cyclists on roundabouts, there have been numerous anti bike letters, along the lines of "you don't
    >pay any road tax, so we can knock you down." In tonight's edition I was therefore pleased to see
    >the local CTC rep sticking up for us:
    >
    >http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zctc.htm
     
  6. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:58:02 +0000, Allen Foster
    <[email protected]_THISnewtownbreda.demANDTHISon.co.uk> wrote:

    >Contrary to what car drivers think, there is no such thing as 'road tax'. It's called vehicle
    >excise duty

    I refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier answer:
    <http://www.chapmancentral.com/Web/public.nsf/Documents/Bicycles_And_Vehicle_Excise_Duty>

    Quite why we've arrived at the state where people apparently believe that "I've paid for this road
    and I'm bloody well going to use all of it" I don't know; it does appear that people are by and
    large more self-obsessed than they were twenty years ago (to pluck a figure form the air). Luckily
    most cyclists seem immune to this :)

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
  7. Peter B

    Peter B Guest

    "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Quite why we've arrived at the state where people apparently believe that "I've paid for this road
    > and I'm bloody well going to use all of it" I don't know; it does appear that people are by and
    > large more self-obsessed than they were twenty years ago (to pluck a figure form the air). Luckily
    > most cyclists seem immune to this :)

    I know it would be an exercise in futility but wouldn't you just love to ask one of the bleaters to
    come up with a document that actually says they have some special rights to use roads that are
    exclusive to motorists? S'pose you'd just get a typical uk.tosspot sort of an answer.

    Pete
     
  8. Paul - XXX

    Paul - XXX Guest

    Allen Foster deftly scribbled:

    A little amendment may be in order

    > Contrary to what car drivers think, there is no such thing as 'road

    ^^^^ some

    > tax'. It's called vehicle excise duty and does not, contrary to what most people think, directly
    > pay for the provision of roads and their maintenance. Just because someone is paying 'road tax'
    > doesn't mean they have any more rights than cyclists.

    --
    ...................................Paul-xxx Seti 1401 wu in 10052 hours
    http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ http://graffiti.virgin.net/ar.sole/Index.htm
     
  9. Alex Graham

    Alex Graham Guest

    Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

    > Quite why we've arrived at the state where people apparently believe "I've paid for this road and
    > I'm bloody well going to use all of it"

    The way I look at it, motorists pay to use the roads, but they damn well should do as (in most
    cases) their car is taking up space on a road even when not in use. They need to pay for such items
    useless to a cyclist such as pay and display meters, parking wardens, motorways etc. Also the fact
    that they drive massive ugly machines belching out fumes. Why that should be a right is quite
    beyond me.

    Also cars tend to destroy and take chunks out of the road quite a bit. I find gaping potholes appear
    overnight on my daily route! They actually get patched up quite quickly, but I suppose this _is_
    london. When I say patched I mean bodged and not at all smoothed.

    Maybe I'm just incredibly naive and ignorant (only just being old enough to learn to drive, not that
    I have done so). Anyway s a good job I'm not crosspoting to uk.tosspot I suppose.

    --

    -Alex

    ----------------------------------
    [email protected]

    http://alexpg.ath.cx:3353/cycling/ http://www.westerleycycling.org.uk
    ----------------------------------
     
  10. A certain Allen Foster, of uk.rec.cycling "fame", writes :
    >Contrary to what car drivers think, there is no such thing as 'road tax'. It's called vehicle
    >excise duty and does not, contrary to what most people think, directly pay for the provision of
    >roads and their maintenance. Just because someone is paying 'road tax' doesn't mean they have any
    >more rights than cyclists.

    I agree Allan and hear this "argument" all the time. The motorists who use it do not understand
    fundamentally what a tax is. They think it is a charge which they pay to receive a service.
    Assuredly, if a motorist used that line in front of a judge following an accident, I'd hope the
    penalty to be damning.

    --
    George H.W. Bush, as Presidential Nominee for the Republican party; 1987-AUG-27: "No, I don't know
    that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is
    one nation under God."
     
  11. Alex Graham <[email protected]> wrote:

    | Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
    |
    | > Quite why we've arrived at the state where people apparently believe "I've paid for this road
    | > and I'm bloody well going to use all of it"
    |
    | The way I look at it, motorists pay to use the roads, but they damn well should do as (in most
    | cases) their car is taking up space on a road even when not in use. They need to pay for such
    | items useless to a cyclist such as pay and display meters, parking wardens, motorways etc. Also
    | the fact that they drive massive ugly machines belching out fumes. Why that should be a right is
    | quite beyond me.

    A good, albeit not true, reply to this, or so I think, is that a pro rata Bike Excise Duty would
    cost more to collect than the revenue raised, so we all pay for using the roads, don't we. There's
    no answer to that, that I can see, that justifies any kind of priority except over pedestrians. You
    can then go on, truthfully, about Council Tax paying for the road upkeep etc.

    --
    Patrick Herring, Sheffield, UK http://www.anweald.co.uk
     
  12. Gadget

    Gadget Guest

    As an owner of a 60's mini cooper (exellent condition i might add) and also a cyclist, does that
    mean I'm fair game to tax paying motorists twice over? And why is it that my mini is exempt from
    road tax? By the way the ownership of the car has upset my neighbour on several occasions and has
    led to her calling me "an iresponisble young hoodlum who should pay his road tax". What really upset
    her is the fact the police will not do anything about it. :eek:)

    Gadget
     
  13. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Chesney Christ <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > I agree Allan and hear this "argument" all the time. The motorists who use it do not understand
    > fundamentally what a tax is. They think it is a charge which they pay to receive a service.
    >

    Using that arguement, since I pay more tax the most people presumably I should get priority over
    most of them on hospital waiting lists and pick of the school places for my children. Must try that
    line next time a motorist complains - "Would you mind moving your car out of the way of my bicycle,
    I pay more tax than you"

    Tony

    --
    http://www.raven-family.com

    "I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them
    their job."

    Samuel Goldwyn
     
  14. In news:[email protected], Patrick Herring <[email protected]> typed:

    > A good, albeit not true, reply to this, or so I think, is that a pro rata Bike Excise Duty would
    > cost more to collect than the revenue raised,

    I was in dicussions with DfT last year on this very issue; their officer actually advised that
    charging tax on bikes *had* once been considered (many years ago I would think) - but it was soon
    realised, that it would not be a viable proposition

    so we all pay for using the roads, don't we. There's no answer
    > to that, that I can see, that justifies any kind of priority except over pedestrians.

    Bicycles and their accessories (apart from h*lm*ts) are subject to VAT. We *do* pay for the road
    infrastructure when we go to the LBS (apart from those who try and smuggle bikes in via the USA -
    although last time someone suggested trying this I remember some group posters saying it was not on
    and they would even turn them in to HMCE!)

    Alex
     
  15. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Stephen (aka steford)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > I really don't know what's happened to this country over the last year or
    so
    > in terms of paying for things. It seems everything we now do has to be
    paid
    > for individually rather than through tax and if we don't directly benefit
    we
    > feel cheated that someone else might. I'm taling about schools, universities, NHS, roads,
    > firefighters etc etc. Really annoying.

    Heard at a recent Premier division football match.

    A) Sit Down!!

    B) (resuming his seat - expletives deleted) I paid xx for this seat -- I'll stand if I want.

    C) I paid the same and want to see the match

    D) Sit down (addressed to three guys in front of him who were now standing)

    3 Guys) Tough. We paid xx & we will stand if we want.

    Neighbours) Applause.

    Lesson -- paying may secure additional rights but does not relieve you of responsibilities.

    T
     
  16. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    Gadget wrote:
    > As an owner of a 60's mini cooper (exellent condition i might add) and also a cyclist, does that
    > mean I'm fair game to tax paying motorists twice over? And why is it that my mini is exempt from
    > road tax?

    All vehicles are exempt from Road Tax, as it doesn't exist. Some are also exempt from Vehicle
    Excise Duty ;-)

    --
    Guy
    ===
    I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
    about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
    wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

    http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104
     
  17. Allen Foster <[email protected]_THISnewtownbreda.demANDTHISon.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Contrary to what car drivers think, there is no such thing as 'road tax'. It's called vehicle
    > excise duty and does not, contrary to what most people think, directly pay for the provision of
    > roads and their maintenance. Just because someone is paying 'road tax' doesn't mean they have any
    > more rights than cyclists.
    >
    > Allen
    >
    Hmmm. On new toll roads where the charge is specifically for driving along that bit of road what
    will the position of cyclists be? Will we also have to pay to use the road or will we get free
    access? Do they have nice cycleways or lanes alongside that keep us and the cars apart? If not, does
    the payment of a toll permit drivers to be angrier at having to slow down to overtake us?

    I can see a whole new anti-cyclist mentality developing....

    - Richard
     
  18. Dave

    Dave Guest

    "Simon Mason" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Since I had a letter published in our local rag complaining about car drivers not giving way to
    > cyclists on roundabouts, there have been
    numerous
    > anti bike letters, along the lines of "you don't pay any road tax, so we
    can
    > knock you down." In tonight's edition I was therefore pleased to see the local CTC rep sticking
    > up for us:
    >
    > http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zctc.htm
    >
    > --
    > Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W http://www.simonmason.karoo.net
    >
    My view on this is that as I own, and pay vehicle excise duty for both a car and motorbike, then I
    have already covered the 'moral arguement' that motorists may use when I'm out on my bike. Not only
    have I 'covered the cost' twice already, but I'm being considerate enough to leave the polluting,
    road/family destroying machines at home whilst travelling and taking up a whole lot less road space
    to boot. This turns the whole point around and then asks of them, "what the hell are you playing at,
    out in your car ?"....in theory, they should look all embarrassed and shuffle off to buy a bike,
    then ride it!! - Can't wait.. 8-D. Cheers, Dave.
     
  19. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    Dave wrote:

    > My view on this is that as I own, and pay vehicle excise duty for both a car and motorbike, then I
    > have already covered the 'moral arguement' that motorists may use when I'm out on my bike. Not
    > only have I 'covered the cost' twice already, but I'm being considerate enough to leave the
    > polluting, road/family destroying machines at home whilst travelling and taking up a whole lot
    > less road space to boot. This turns the whole point around and then asks of them, "what the hell
    > are you playing at, out in your car ?"....in theory, they should look all embarrassed and shuffle
    > off to buy a bike, then ride it!! - Can't wait.. 8-D.

    It works for me :)

    That's been my take as well, FWIW - what happens is that the uk.tosspot twats then start chiding me
    for failing to obey red traffic lights or use lights (also wrong on both counts) to which my counter
    involves cagers who exceed speed limits and park illegally. And eventually they run out of arguments
    and resort to abuse, at which point I shrug my shoulders and walk away.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    I wonder if you wouldn't mind piecing out our imperfections with your thoughts; and while you're
    about it perhaps you could think when we talk of bicycles, that you see them printing their proud
    wheels i' the receiving earth; thanks awfully.

    http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#103 http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104
     
  20. Dave

    Dave Guest

    "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Dave wrote:
    >
    > > My view on this is that as I own, and pay vehicle excise duty for both a car and motorbike, then
    > > I have already covered the 'moral arguement' that motorists may use when I'm out on my bike. Not
    > > only have I 'covered the cost' twice already, but I'm being considerate enough to leave the
    > > polluting, road/family destroying machines at home whilst travelling and taking up a whole lot
    > > less road space to boot. This turns the whole point around and then asks of them, "what the hell
    > > are you playing at, out in your car ?"....in theory, they should look all embarrassed and
    > > shuffle off to buy a bike, then ride it!! - Can't wait.. 8-D.
    >
    > It works for me :)
    >
    > That's been my take as well, FWIW - what happens is that the uk.tosspot twats then start chiding
    > me for failing to obey red traffic lights or use lights (also wrong on both counts) to which my
    > counter involves cagers who exceed speed limits and park illegally. And eventually they run out of
    > arguments and resort to abuse, at which point I shrug my shoulders and
    walk
    > away.
    >
    > --
    > Guy
    > ===
    yeah, the human state, I love it!!
     
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