Level 2 revisited

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by Chipotle, Jan 12, 2007.

  1. Chipotle

    Chipotle New Member

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    I found this very interesting article. "Fat As Fuel: What value are medium chain triglycerides as an energy source for endurance athletes."

    Of key interest (to me) was a short description of fuel supplied by adipose fat visa vis intramuscular fat (triglycerides).

    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0158.htm
     


  2. SolarEnergy

    SolarEnergy New Member

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    this sound dissonant (at least to my ears). But I'm probably just missing something...

    Duration is an important part of TSS. Can't we draw a link between race TSS and training TSS (for long events)?
     
  3. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I still have a large amount of MCT oil that I need to do something with. I can tolerate a small amount, but for the most part it will upset my stomach and have some other effects that is not desireable on a bike, unless there are a number of toilets along the way. Perhaps it will not effect everyone in the same manner, but at least it is mentioned as a precaution on the pponline link that you provided. I find those statements to be solid by my observations.

    I now use the MCT during my interval training rather than risk the negative effects while out on the road. The amount that I need to use in order to avoid the stomach distress is so small that it really does not provide much benefit.

    Like the author stated I agree with the theory behind using MCT and I was interested in seeing if it would be effective in sparing carbohydrates during the rides, but the negative effects seemed to overwhelm the positive effect. At least for me anyway.
     
  4. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    Be careful with that stuff. Australian Ironman triathlete Chris Leigh ran into terrible trouble at the end of Hawaii one year using it. You may have seen the ad for Gatorade on US television? He is falling about with diarrhea and vomiting on the finish line. Ultimately he had part of his gut removed because so much damage had been done. I'm not sure what %age of this was event stress alone and what was MCTs, but the MCTs certainly had something to do with it.

    An exercise physiologist friend of mine summarised it like this: it was a good theory, but it has been looked into quite a bit and real benefits have been shown. It is also risky and can lead to severe GI distress and even injury.
     
  5. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    Please do!
     
  6. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    :) It didn't take me long to figure this one out.

    I tried it twice before going on endurance type rides and both times the negative effects hit me when I was far away from a restroom.

    The bad thing is the bottle of MCT oil that I purchased is huge so I will warn anyone that is tempted by the theory (which does sound legit) and determined to try it to start with by finding a small bottle in case you have the same problems.

    I have used MCT in very tiny amounts in the past for anaerobic training and did not have a problem. The amount does not need to be as high for that type of training because not as many calories are required, but for cycling I won't try it again.
     
  7. rmur17

    rmur17 New Member

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    I have the 1987 version. Anyone know if the 1990 version is the same?

    I re-read Chapter 6 "Training ..." last night. It seems to me the missing piece is Vo2max training. I see no mention of that whatsover in my '87 version.

    There are 2-4min intervals that could serve that purpose but under "Anaerobic Capacity" training. But he advocates very long rest intervals of 2-4 times the work interval ... which would tend to lessen the effectiveness of such durations for V02max versus AC (IMO).

    I also find the description of "Anaerobic threshold" confusing as he talks about raising the time at threshold from 2 to 4 min over the season. In fact, I find the intensity ranges a little off. Threshold training is described as the 4-30 min range but the intensity similar to a track 4k pursuit. That's an example I would use for Vo2max/L5 training -- not threshold. So I assume threshold pace/power meant something considerably harder than FTP to him.

    I liked the section on Peaking and Tapering - no doubt he had that down pat with three Tdf and two World Pro champs.

    And of course, the anecdotes from racing especially the '85 and '85 Tours.
     
  8. ccrnnr9

    ccrnnr9 New Member

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    Do you have a title on that Morris book? I have done some author searches through half.com, my library database, and barnes and noble, and have not turned up anything relating to the topic.

    Also you mention Zatsiorsky being the "2nd father" of the periodization kick. Where does Bompa fit into this picture? I did some searches but didn't turn up much. I ask because I just checked out his "Periodization: theory and methodolgy of training" 4th ed. from my campus library.
    ~Nick
     
  9. ccrnnr9

    ccrnnr9 New Member

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    One thing I forgot...any recomendations for text on swimming? You mention good resources for cycling and running. Having never been a swimmer, I would like to have something to read on training for the sport.
    ~Nick
     
  10. TiMan

    TiMan New Member

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    THE PHYSIOLOGY in the book IS THE ONLY WEAK PART OF HIS BOOK, in a couples areas as you have pointed out....and I don't know if it was "bettered" in the 1990 edition. One has to "get over" some mistakes. Lemond should correct this by writing another book as he clearly has firm grasp on correct physiology now as evidenced by listening to him speak for hours.

    ***THE TRAINING re: **SPECIFICS**,STRUCTURE and DETAIL is STILL the best in print in my opinion and found in NO OTHER book in print. He had no "personal training"$$ agenda as it seems is quite evident in the books by Friel, Carmichael and David Morris...which are all quite vague and incomplete in my opinion.

    The section you are referring too includes VO2 max intervals. He fails to call them that and clumps ALL the intervals of 45 seconds to 4 minutes in this section under the title "Anaerobic Capacity Training(Intervals)" This is indeed a mistake. VO2 max intervals are, however, more aerobic than anaerobic and really should not be including under a heading "anaerobic capacity".

    HOWEVER...all is not lost>>>>>
    On page 240 of the 87 edition he makes a "distinction" between pure anaerobic intervals and VO2 max intervals...see under the title "Different Intervals". He calls the intervals in this section "pure intervals" and "long intervals"....and describes the pure intervals correctly as being anaerobic with energy coming from anaerobic glycolysis. Then goes on to say that the long interval's energy comes from anaerobic AND aerobic glycolysis.
    But he never does call the long intervals VO2 max intervals per say.


    The thinking of "the day" back then was to make your rest periods quite long between ALL intervals so that you could do full justice to them. This is still practiced when doing anaerobic intervals for the most part but we no longer take long rests between VO2 intervals...1 to 1 work to rest ratio is most common.
    HOWEVER, the long rest periods WILL NOT reduce the effectiveness of VO2 training in the slightest. All it does is make your workout longer and lengthens the time it takes(slightly) to reach VO2 in each interval. So instead of reaching VO2 max in say 60 sections after 2-3 intervals, it may take you 90-100 seconds. ALL that REALLY counts is TIME at VO2 max per training session...which should approach 20 minutes and max out at about 40 if you are Superman.

    Yes, that has to be a mistake in print....cause he talks about doing plenty of threshold intervals from 10-45 minutes in length.....15min's on the flats X 3-4 times ..and he mentions hill intervals on the next page(p.226) up to 45 minutes. He did not like to do threshold intervals on the flats for longer than 20 minutes at
    in one interval, unless there was a tail wind(p.242)because he found them too mentally taxing, and he motored paced for intervals of 30 minutes. He told me in a seminar that he would motor pace for up to 2 hours at one time....most of which was threshold work in blocks of 30 minutes!!!
    [/QUOTE]


    The "time" of 4-30 mimutes is correct, although the lower limit should be more like 6- 8 minutes.
    BUT the intensity described on p 205 is too high...threshold intensity is not "similar" to the effort in a 5 to 25 K TT. I think Lemond copied this chart of Training Intensities from a book of "that day".
    HOWEVER, all is not lost again>>>>> he talks MUCH MORE about the intensity of threshold work later on in the training examples. see page 222 and 232.
    He says threshold training should be done at a heart rate between 85 and 93% of max and this is correct. Lemond also talks about how being in the threshold zone "feels"... having the legs just "start" to tighten up a bit and not having that totally "spent" feel of an anaerobic state.[/QUOTE]

    Yes to the first part and no to the second.....he described threshold inensity well in the book, except in that Definition section early on...which I think is copied out of a book.


    Also, he talks about going way above his threshold while training in the mountains in the winter...when he felt good.
     
  11. rmur17

    rmur17 New Member

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    Yes that has to be one of the best PE descriptions of threshold that I've read. It's just things are not consistent to my reading in that chapter.

    I haven't got it in front of me now but the statement "Guimard? said that the biggest improvements noted come from training some 10% under threshold". Sounds an awful lot like SST to me :)

    Overall, a good book and seeing it was written some 20 years ago .. nothing to get worked up over.

    I tried to follow it when I started riding in '88 but was too much of a mileage junkie to take my Monday rest days! 2nd mistake was to ignore the benefits of threshold 'intervals' or effort or repeats whatever term suits best. I did the sprints, did the shortish 2-4 min intervals (finding I liked the longer ones better), did the endurance, but I never did cotton onto the threshold concept back then. My bad.
     
  12. TiMan

    TiMan New Member

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    Yes! I was almost going to include that in my last reply but thought it was getting a bit long winded. certainly about 90-92% of ones FTP will give great progress with less chance of over-training, when doing lots of threshold work.

    As I mentioned it is the best still....in regard to "actual" training and structure in training. It should be noted that Lemond is the only top pro that actually detailed his training in a book....and gave "tempering" advice to those that lower levels.
     
  13. tdl123321

    tdl123321 New Member

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    Do you think most training camps, coaches, etc will begin to teach L4 instead of so many base miles.
     
  14. fastcat

    fastcat New Member

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    Sorry to return to this, but it intigued me.

    And got me wondering about the correlation between sustainable power for say one hour and sustainable power for longer periods such as three to four hours.

    I'm presently doing mostly L4/SS intervals of 3x20, and the like which will certainly help me to improve power for events of up to one hour duration.

    But I'd also assumed that to build stamina for 3-4 hour events I really need to also ride these sort of distances regularly. (I find I fade on brisk rides of this duration)

    But the comment above got me wondering: if I improve my FTP by say 10% through interval training sessions could I expect to see my 4 hour sustainable power also increase by 10% ? Hence I don't need to ride these longer training rides.

    And, are there rules-of-thumbs for % of FTP sustainable for longer periods (e.g. 2,3,4 hours) for say an 'all rounder' profile ?
     
  15. joemw

    joemw New Member

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    5% is a rule-of-thumb for loss in sustainable output when duration is doubled. That is very general of course. It should also be noted that as you move beyond 2 hours, your FTP in relation to your weight and glycogen storage capacity play a huge role. For instance, if you weigh 66 kgs, have an FTP of 420w and can store 2000 kcal of glycogen, it's going to be exceptionally unlikely to sustain 380w for four hours straight. However, if you weigh 132 kgs, have an FTP of 420w and can store 4000 kcal of glycogen, you might just have a legitimate shot at holding 380w for four hours. Then again, I'm not sure if it's more unlikely we'll see a 290lb guy holding 380w for four hours, or a 145lb guy.:confused:
     
  16. rmur17

    rmur17 New Member

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    I don't know if even Bjarne (60%) Riis could average 380W for 4-hrs!
     
  17. jbvcoaching

    jbvcoaching New Member

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    On 4/26/97, he did 384W NP for 4 hours, only 310 AP though. Pretty turny, undulating course, and he was only solo for the last hour or so.

    That's assuming his SRM was calibrated correctly.
     
  18. TiMan

    TiMan New Member

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    Amazing what EPO can do you ya eh....Mr. 60%. ......and he looked like the Grim Reaper at 6 feet 150lbs and red roses 60% hematocrit cheeks. he he he scary.
    :rolleyes:
     
  19. benkoostra

    benkoostra New Member

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    This is my experience as well. I triend long slow miles, and as much as I enjoy riding the bike, I prefer a little speed while I'm at it! So I upped the intensity a lot and found that I burned a lot more fat with a 2 hour high intensity ride than a 3 or 4 hour low one. I lost 35 pounds doing this AND got in better shape. My LT became much higher as well. As long as you don't eat like a pig, this is a great way to lose it fast. It works for Ullrich!:D
     
  20. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    Actually, I remember comments from his DS or from Rudy Pevanage (spelling?) that because he was coming into some of those seasons a bit heavy, he was putting off his start to the racing year because he was still trying to lose weight and "hadn't been able to train". (Paraphrasing) That suggested to me that he was doing lots of L2 and maybe some L3, keeping the intensity down to burn fat, yada, yada.

    From what I've experienced, you can lose weight on a steady diet of L3 & L4, you just have to be a bit more precise with calorie intake and glycogen replenishment than if you were doing just L1 and L2. If you aren't careful, your power will fade towards the end of the interval/session due to running out of fuel.
     
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