Level 2 revisited

[Felt_Rider]

This is my experience as well. I triend long slow miles, and as much as I enjoy ridding the bike, I prefer a little speed while I'm at it! So I upped the intensity a lot and found that I burned a lot more fat with a 2 hour high intensity ride than a 3 or 4 hour low one. I lost 35 pounds doing this AND got in better shape. My LT became much higher as well. As long as you don't eat like a pig, this is a great way to lose it fast. It works for Ullrich!

Good job on losing so much weight.

I have to admit for a very discipline person when it comes to training and nutrition that I am struggling a little. With my metabolism now zooming I am driving my wife crazy with the amount that I am eating. I am still slowly losing weight, but by mid week I have pretty much consumed the groceries that were supposed to last the whole week.

L4's = higher grocery costs

 

[Steve_B]

Amazing what EPO can do you ya eh....Mr. 60%. ......and he looked like the Grim Reaper at 6 feet 150lbs and red roses 60% hematocrit cheeks. he he he scary.

With arms that looked like twigs during the 1996 TdF. That dude was gaunt then.

 

[joemw]

Amazing what EPO can do you ya eh....Mr. 60%. ......and he looked like the Grim Reaper at 6 feet 150lbs and red roses 60% hematocrit cheeks. he he he scary.

I would think 384NP and 310AP for four hours is entirely possible for somebody who weighs 68-69kgs, has an FTP in the 6-6.5w/kg range, and a great AWC, no?

 

[benkoostra]

Good job on losing so much weight.

I have to admit for a very discipline person when it comes to training and nutrition that I am struggling a little. With my metabolism now zooming I am driving my wife crazy with the amount that I am eating. I am still slowly losing weight, but by mid week I have pretty much consumed the groceries that were supposed to last the whole week.

L4's = higher grocery costs

That's a funny equation! But I understand. I take hoodia to try to limit hunger. It works remarkably well, but you still have to be careful about boredom eating and such. I get it from vitacost.com, which has very high quality and they don't rape you on shipping.
I figured out that for performance, I need to eat half a power bar every 15 miles or so to keep the glycogen tank topped off. For training rides I eat a whole one after 2 hours and no more. If I start to feel a bonk coming on it's because I didn't have enough to eat for breakfast. I just suck it up and get home.
But look, you have to eat , and if you're still losing weight you're on the right track. Going slow makes you more likely to keep it off in the long run.

 

[rmur17]

I would think 384NP and 310AP for four hours is entirely possible for somebody who weighs 68-69kgs, has an FTP in the 6-6.5w/kg range, and a great AWC, no?

yeah I would have to agree. Bjarne is just a convenient whipping boy.

BTW I had no idea his Amstel Gold race file was that close to the 380W quoted.

 

[fastcat]

5% is a rule-of-thumb for loss in sustainable output when duration is doubled. That is very general of course. It should also be noted that as you move beyond 2 hours, your FTP in relation to your weight and glycogen storage capacity play a huge role. For instance, if you weigh 66 kgs, have an FTP of 420w and can store 2000 kcal of glycogen, it's going to be exceptionally unlikely to sustain 380w for four hours straight. However, if you weigh 132 kgs, have an FTP of 420w and can store 4000 kcal of glycogen, you might just have a legitimate shot at holding 380w for four hours. Then again, I'm not sure if it's more unlikely we'll see a 290lb guy holding 380w for four hours, or a 145lb guy.

Thanks

5% doesn't sound much - so is that 95% for 2 hours, 90% for 3 hours and 85% for four hours ? Although your note above suggests 90% for 4 hours, I guess ...

 

[TiMan]

I would think 384NP and 310AP for four hours is entirely possible for somebody who weighs 68-69kgs, has an FTP in the 6-6.5w/kg range, and a great AWC, no?

perhaps....but that wasn't my point.

 

[rmur17]

Thanks

5% doesn't sound much - so is that 95% for 2 hours, 90% for 3 hours and 85% for four hours ? Although your note above suggests 90% for 4 hours, I guess ...

double the duration: 1,2,4 hrs ....

 

[fastcat]

double the duration: 1,2,4 hrs ....

Thanks - I wondered if that was what you meant, but was suprised that 4 hour power could be only 90% of 1 hour power.

I suspect that my power for that sort of distance is nothing like 90% of my FTP. I'd be suprised if it were even 80%. But not having a PM on my road bike I'm guessing a bit (based on PE / a trainer I use which does have a power meter).

But it brings me back to my original question. I'm keen to improve my power over these sort of longer rides. What sort of training would be best for such events ?

 

[rmur17]

Thanks - I wondered if that was what you meant, but was suprised that 4 hour power could be only 90% of 1 hour power.

I suspect that my power for that sort of distance is nothing like 90% of my FTP. I'd be suprised if it were even 80%. But not having a PM on my road bike I'm guessing a bit (based on PE / a trainer I use which does have a power meter).

But it brings me back to my original question. I'm keen to improve my power over these sort of longer rides. What sort of training would be best for such events ?

simply put: lots of lower Level 3 to mid Level 4 otherwise known as .....

And I guess some judiciously placed higher intensity work throughout the year.

IMO, Level 2 is for when I'm too tired to really *train*

 

[fastcat]

simply put: lots of lower Level 3 to mid Level 4 otherwise known as .....

And I guess some judiciously placed higher intensity work throughout the year.

IMO, Level 2 is for when I'm too tired to really *train*

Thanks

Agree on the L2. At the moment I'm doing 3 L4 interval sessions a week and one longer 50-60 mile ride, on which I'm trying to keep in the intensity at L3 with some L4. So I guess one way or another I'm probably doing the right thing .....

 

[ccrnnr9]

simply put: lots of lower Level 3 to mid Level 4 otherwise known as .....

And I guess some judiciously placed higher intensity work throughout the year.

IMO, Level 2 is for when I'm too tired to really *train*

I guess where my biggest misunderstanding comes from is how to structure this? Still being a cat5 and one that intends to do RR's and TT's only this season (and knowing that Cat4/5 RR's generally fall under 50miles) where should the emphasis be? A lot of people on the boards here seem to emphasize the 2x30's or 3x20's at mid-level 4. Others emphasize the mid to high 1x60-120's falling somewhere between low level 4 to low level 3 depending on duration.

With a lot of the info that has been presented here, it seems to me that the trend for most of you guys who know what you are talking about with regards to SST is to favor shorter intervals in level 4. I am just curious if this should be dependent on the event training for (i.e. crits, RR's, short TT's, long TT's...obviously super short events like some track events are going to be a different case).

For me personally being busy all the time, I do not have more than 2hours/day that I can devote to trainning, so this leaves me crunched to be most effective.
~Nick

 

[otb4evr]

I guess where my biggest misunderstanding comes from is how to structure this? Still being a cat5 and one that intends to do RR's and TT's only this season (and knowing that Cat4/5 RR's generally fall under 50miles) where should the emphasis be? A lot of people on the boards here seem to emphasize the 2x30's or 3x20's at mid-level 4. Others emphasize the mid to high 1x60-120's falling somewhere between low level 4 to low level 3 depending on duration.

~Nick

Nick,

I have 2 thoughts on your question about how to structure your intensity:

1. Being fairly new to the sport, you will show improvement regardless of how you structure your intensity.
2. Because of the nature of this sport, you have ample time to try something new if what you are doing is not working for you...

You are right, there is a lot of good info on this board. You need to find out what will bring about the right adaptation for you specifically.

I suggest trying a bit of both. 2 days of Threshold work and 1 - 2 days of long Tempo/SST per week. Lather, rinse, repeat...

Keep a good log and find out how this affects you...

Don't be afraid to change things up a bit.

Jim

 

[ccrnnr9]

I suggest trying a bit of both. 2 days of Threshold work and 1 - 2 days of long Tempo/SST per week. Lather, rinse, repeat...

Keep a good log and find out how this affects you...

Don't be afraid to change things up a bit.

Jim

Ya that is kinda what I am finding. There are many ways to skin the same cat. I guess one thing I need to learn (and am working on) is that it is ok not to have all the answers right away. I have to learn to be more adaptable with my training and not get so anxious that I'm afraid to experiment around. Right now I do Monday and Friday off completely with nothing but rest. Tuesday and Thursday are threshold interval days with wednesday, saturday, and sunday being SST days (that is assuming that SST is more zone3 and threshold is more zone4 work...3x20 or 2x30). I will have to see how it works out for me.

The coolest thing though is that even after four weeks, I can already see some improvement (marginal) in what seems maintainable for certain time periods. Granted this may be to the fact that I spent nearly 3months without any cycling training after the end of last season.
~Nick

 

[Steve_B]

Ya that is kinda what I am finding. There are many ways to skin the same cat. I guess one thing I need to learn (and am working on) is that it is ok not to have all the answers right away. I have to learn to be more adaptable with my training and not get so anxious that I'm afraid to experiment around. Right now I do Monday and Friday off completely with nothing but rest. Tuesday and Thursday are threshold interval days with wednesday, saturday, and sunday being SST days (that is assuming that SST is more zone3 and threshold is more zone4 work...3x20 or 2x30). I will have to see how it works out for me.

You are more organized than 95% of the guys you are riding with, most of whom don't have a clue as to what is importat and what is not.

I agree, don't worry about mixing it up a bit when you need to. Staleness is the worst thing because it leads to less riding. At this point, the best thing you can do for yourself is be on a bike. The fact that you're informed and organized enough to do L3 and L4 at decent volumes is even better.

 

[RChung]

On 4/26/97, he did 384W NP for 4 hours, only 310 AP though. Pretty turny, undulating course, and he was only solo for the last hour or so.

That's assuming his SRM was calibrated correctly.

NP by duration up to 120 minutes at Amstel Gold.

 

[donm]

NP by duration up to 120 minutes at Amstel Gold.

Yikes! Any idea what his bodyweight was?

 

[RChung]

Yikes! Any idea what his bodyweight was?

BMI = 20.97

 

[watts4speed]

... and you have to be able to sit on the bike for 5 hrs, but my experience, and that of others I work with, is that those adaptations happen pretty quickly if you're already consistently doing regular rides that are about 2/3rds of your target events.

Wow. My target events are 12-18 hours long.

 

[yzfrr11]

NP by duration up to 120 minutes at Amstel Gold.

No way! I don't think that is possible.