Level 4 Training question (2X20 = 1X40)

[SolarEnergy]

This is following a discution that took place in an other thread (Figuring out 2x20 wattage, by gregkeller), during which one simple question got asked :

Level 4 training
Is 2X20min with some rest in between, the same as 1X40min. Same power number, somewhere in L4 spectrum.
- Same RPE (at the end of the work)?
- Same adaptation following the workout?
- Does rest in between impact on RPE, or Adaptation?
- Is 3X20 the same as 60 (same power of course)?

If possible, some litterature on the subject would be appreciated. Or else, just your thoughts that's cool.

Thanks

 

[Dini77]

This is following a discution that took place in an other thread (Figuring out 2x20 wattage, by gregkeller), during which one simple question got asked :

Level 4 training
Is 2X20min with some rest in between, the same as 1X40min. Same power number, somewhere in L4 spectrum.
- Same RPE (at the end of the work)?
- Same adaptation following the workout?
- Does rest in between impact on RPE, or Adaptation?
- Is 3X20 the same as 60 (same power of course)?

If possible, some litterature on the subject would be appreciated. Or else, just your thoughts that's cool.

Thanks

Solar, i asked a similar question on a previous thread (Alternatives to classical FT intervals) see http://www.cyclingforums.com/t312292-alternative-methods-to-classical-ft-intervals.html

Andy provided a response in there re: time requirements for physiological responses Vs adaptions. He was not aware of any studies/literature that specifically examined the physiological adaptation perspective of various interval lengths. I think his recommendation was for lengths 15 - 30min, but you could achieve similar 'responses' by using much shorter intervals provided that the rest period is also very short. Andy also made reference to 'other ways' of achieving LT/FT improvements, but left us hanging on what they were

Not sure this exactly answers all your questions though

 

[SolarEnergy]

Thanks a lot. I read it. That helps.

But as you may guess, that doesn't answer the question per se.

Anyway, I'll keep searching.

Cheers

 

[RapDaddyo]

This is too easy.

Is 2X20min with some rest in between, the same as 1X40min. Same power number, somewhere in L4 spectrum.

Same RPE (at the end of the work)?

Of course not. Everybody's MP declines with duration. Hence, holding power constant and moving out the duration axis results in an increasingly larger percentage of one's MP, until intersection with the curve at which point game over. So, by definition, if you hold power constant, RPE will be greater at any point to the right on the duration curve.

Same adaptation following the workout?

I can't point to any data, but my perception is that the adaptation differences would be negligible.

Does rest in between impact on RPE, or Adaptation?

Yes to RPE because the power/duration of the rest period will affect the IF and TSS of the total workout, hence the percentage of AP and NP to MP. Again, this is true by definition. No to adaptation because the driver of adaptation is the time at level and not time at rest. Take a nap and come back this afternoon for the 2nd 20. Same adaptation benefit (IMO).

Is 3X20 the same as 60 (same power of course)?

Same answers. Much harder on the RPE scale but no difference in adaptation benefit.

A question back at you. Why do you think the adaptation benefit would be greater for one protocol or the other. I mean, what is the logic behind it?

 

[Bruce Diesel]

Isn't this the whole reasoning behind doing intervals instead of one continuous effort? i.e. a lower RPE for the same adaption. Which makes it easier to do mentally?

 

[SolarEnergy]

A question back at you. Why do you think the adaptation benefit would be greater for one protocol or the other. I mean, what is the logic behind it?

The doubt, is driving me. No certainty, just doubt.

To better answer your question, I would need to understand better why we train at L4 at the first place. What are the strains involve, and how the body respond and adapt to those strains.

How does the body become better at lactate removal?

Mitochondria play huge role in improvement. But do they improve as a result of direct L4 training? If yes, how do they respond to effort of longer duration compared to efforts of shorter duration.

You see guys, I have been trying to find a graph (plots) where I could see

At a constant power
X = minutes
Ys = Lactate curve, Ventillatory threshold curve, Heart rate thresholde curve and any other relevant curve, to see how they evolve. That would help me believe you.

1n study, with myself. A lot of things are going on by the 20th minute of a L4 effort, I may just be psychological, but what if...

As a coach, until I know for sure, I must be careful and stick to my opinion, that if you are to do more than one L4 training a week, you'd better vary interval duration, to potentially embrace the whole spectrum of L4 better. IOW, you won't see me recommending 2X20 twice of 3times a week, at the same power level. Too narrow.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I would need to understand better why we train at L4 at the first place. What are the strains involve, and how the body respond and adapt to those strains.

How does the body become better at lactate removal?

Mitochondria play huge role in improvement. But do they improve as a result of direct L4 training? If yes, how do they respond to effort of longer duration compared to efforts of shorter duration.

I think you need to sign up for the USA Cycling Expert Coaching Clinic and hear Andy's day-long lecture on physiology. I tried to sign up for the one in CO Springs last October, but I got my app in too late. Maybe I'll see you there if you sign up. Andy, when's the next one?

As a coach, until I know for sure, I must be careful and stick to my opinion, that if you are to do more than one L4 training a week, you'd better vary interval duration, to potentially embrace the whole spectrum of L4 better. IOW, you won't see me recommending 2X20 twice of 3times a week, at the same power level. Too narrow.

Well, I realize it's a small sample (an anecdote really), but I'll share with you the results of a riding buddy in my club, a guy in his mid-40s in reasonable (not great) shape. He joined the club last September and after a few rides together he thought I could offer some useful advice for increasing his power. He rides with only a speedometer, no power meter and no HRM. I had ridden with him enough to guess his FT at 225w (we're about the same weight). I took him out to my favorite hill (3.5mi, 6% grade) and had him ride alongside me while I maintained CP=225w. I told him to make note of his average speed on the climb. I then told him to ride the hill as often as his schedule permits (up to 2x on one ride), at that average speed until it felt too easy and then to just increase his speed in small steps to maintain the same perception of effort. I told him not to expect any dramatic change from week to week but, like water dripping on a stone, give it time. I also told him to not buy a HRM because it would just screw him up. He has followed my advice and has ridden the hill an average of 2x/week, plus our weekend club rides. Yesterday our club ride went up that hill (no surprise, I was ride leader) and I offered to ride the climb alongside my friend to see where he is now. I was expecting that maybe he was up to ~275w. I was stunned when I downloaded the ride file and found that I had an AP=309w and NP=316w. Converting for the weight difference, he rode the hill at NP=309w. Pretty cool, huh?

 

[Spunout]

Good idea Solar. I am currently advising 2x20 at the end of a 4 day microcycle. For the second L4 workout, 4x10 at a higher power (top of L4) with less recovery. Best scheduled after a rest day.

As the macrocycle progresses, we'll move to 2x30 or straight 60 and 5x10 with 2 off. After that, base is over! We see how easily 5x10,2 prepares the athlete (physically, mentally, and physiologically) for upcoming V02 Max work.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Good idea Solar. I am currently advising 2x20 at the end of a 4 day microcycle.

4Day microcycle? The whole year is split in 4day microcycles?

For the second L4 workout, 4x10 at a higher power (top of L4) with less recovery. Best scheduled after a rest day.

As the macrocycle progresses, we'll move to 2x30 or straight 60 and 5x10 with 2 off. After that, base is over! We see how easily 5x10,2 prepares the athlete (physically, mentally, and physiologically) for upcoming V02 Max work.

I see approach L4 from the top first (2X20 followed by 4X10), then a bit more by the base (2X30, 1X60). After that phase, you get into L5.

Sounds pretty cool.

Do you think 1X60 result into the same adaptation, compared to 2X30, same power?

 

[SolarEnergy]

I was stunned when I downloaded the ride file and found that I had an AP=309w and NP=316w. Converting for the weight difference, he rode the hill at NP=309w. Pretty cool, huh?

Pretty cool indeed.

RD, do you know how many times a week he did this workout?
Over what total mileage volume (roughly)?

Thanks again.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Pretty cool indeed.

RD, do you know how many times a week he did this workout?
Over what total mileage volume (roughly)?

Thanks again.

He did it a max of 2x/week, usually just once up the hill, plus about 20 mins each way from his house. He didn't do it at all a couple of different weeks (since early October) due to travel. Average mileage volume ~120 miles/week. Of course, it's the classic problem of drawing too much inference from an anecdote. Was it the athlete or the training? I don't know. What I do know is that the only intervals he has done have been L4s, he has never ridden a 1hr MP test and he doesn't have either a PM or HRM. Just a long hill and a target intensity (speed).

 

[BlueJersey]

This is interesting. I have been on the l4 threshold power program for 3 weeks now. This week is my recovery week. Total days spent on l4 threshold work is 10 days with various interval combinations and intensities (1 x30, 3x20, 3x10, 1x20, and 2x20). Total miles for the 3 weeks is 610 miles. During Feb, I will increase my intensity to upper L4 or lower L5 or some L4/L5/L4. Maybe this Friday or Sunday I will do another 2x20 test just to see how much I have improved. Or if I can still complete the test with higher AP with couple of minutes spent on L5.

He did it a max of 2x/week, usually just once up the hill, plus about 20 mins each way from his house. He didn't do it at all a couple of different weeks (since early October) due to travel. Average mileage volume ~120 miles/week. Of course, it's the classic problem of drawing too much inference from an anecdote. Was it the athlete or the training? I don't know. What I do know is that the only intervals he has done have been L4s, he has never ridden a 1hr MP test and he doesn't have either a PM or HRM. Just a long hill and a target intensity (speed).

 

[RapDaddyo]

This is interesting. I have been on the l4 threshold power program for 3 weeks now. This week is my recovery week. Total days spent on l4 threshold work is 10 days with various interval combinations and intensities (1 x30, 3x20, 3x10, 1x20, and 2x20). Total miles for the 3 weeks is 610 miles. During Feb, I will increase my intensity to upper L4 or lower L5 or some L4/L5/L4. Maybe this Friday or Sunday I will do another 2x20 test just to see how much I have improved. Or if I can still complete the test with higher AP with couple of minutes spent on L5.

Sounds like a plan. I think we sometimes get wrapped around the axle, dissecting and fine-tuning these interval protocols. As Andy says, what is important is to just do them.

P.S., that hill has served me well too. I'm beginning to set my sights on an AP that starts with a "4."

 

[Spunout]

4Day microcycle? The whole year is split in 4day microcycles?

Nanocycles? 4 day and 3 day cycles make up my week.

 

[frenchyge]

You see guys, I have been trying to find a graph (plots) where I could see

At a constant power
X = minutes
Ys = Lactate curve, Ventillatory threshold curve, Heart rate thresholde curve and any other relevant curve, to see how they evolve. That would help me believe you.

FT is close to, but slightly higher than the power that can be generated at LT (1 mmol/L over baseline).* FT is lower than OBLA, though, which means that blood lactate will build up initially until it reaches a steady-state value which is maintained for the remainder of the interval. The rate of this buildup is related to the metabolic events in exercising muscles, which have half-lives of ~30sec.**

From that, I'd say that blood lactate begins rising from its initial concentration soon after the interval starts, and continues to rise for ~5 half-lives (2.5 minutes) before reaching a steady state concentration < 4 mmol/L, which is maintained for the rest of the work duration.

* - http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/PowerTrainingChapter.pdf page 4
** - page 10

 

[whoawhoa]

As a coach, until I know for sure, I must be careful and stick to my opinion, that if you are to do more than one L4 training a week, you'd better vary interval duration, to potentially embrace the whole spectrum of L4 better. IOW, you won't see me recommending 2X20 twice of 3times a week, at the same power level. Too narrow.

I have to question this. Do you think the adaptations are any different (not greater/lesser, just different) training at the middle of l4 vs. the bottom or top? In my mind, it's all the same. In fact, I saw a post by Andy Coggan on topica the other day (the post was pretty old, I was searching the backlog) where he stated that the adaptations to training l2-l4, a huge zone, are all the same. What differs of course, is the rate of adaptation and the amount that must be done for overload.

As far as your question about 1x40 vs. 2x20, I think that it may be an interesting one physiologically, but has little practical application, because the differences between the two will be masked by the probably higher average watts during 2x20's (due to them being mentally easier) and any other environmental factors that keep wattage from being absolutely dead-on. (heat, fatigue, a dog in the road, etc)

 

[acoggan]

The rate of this buildup is related to the metabolic events in exercising muscles, which have half-lives of ~30sec

The "metabolic event" in question is the rate at which the energetic state of the cell changes in response to changes in ATP demand. Blood lactate concentration will reflect this energetic state, but with much slower kinetics.

 

[SolarEnergy]

From that, I'd say that blood lactate begins rising from its initial concentration soon after the interval starts, and continues to rise for ~5 half-lives (2.5 minutes) before reaching a steady state concentration < 4 mmol/L, which is maintained for the rest of the work duration.

* - http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/PowerTrainingChapter.pdf page 4
** - page 10

Thanks Frenchy, that helps me understanding the chart little better.

In your opinion, does lactate curve continues to rise after lactate level at FT power have been reached? Or does it just stabilize itself right there, with no more fluctuation?

IOW, given that your lactate level at FT power after 20 minutes, is 3.0 Mmol/L, do you think you finish the whole duration (60min) at 3.0 ?

 

[frenchyge]

In your opinion, does lactate curve continues to rise after lactate level at FT power have been reached? Or does it just stabilize itself right there, with no more fluctuation?

IOW, given that your lactate level at FT power after 20 minutes, is 3.0 Mmol/L, do you think you finish the whole duration (60min) at 3.0 ?

For intensities below MLSS, I would think the removal rate is eventually able to match the production rate, resulting in a stable lactate value. Once MLSS is exceeded, then lactate production exceeds the maximum removal capacity and concentration continues to rise without reaching a steady state value.

Regarding the chart (I presume you mean the one on Andy's page 5) it looks like lactate keeps rising over time and eventually shoots off the chart. But note that it's plotted vs. *power* (not *time*), which means that lactate is rising *as power is rising* -- IOW, during a ramp test. If power is held steady below MLSS (as during a long L4 interval), then presumably lactate would steady out as well. Because of the lag time in lactate buildup and migration to the blood (per Andy's post just above), you'd need some more info in order to tell if that chart represents the athlete's steady-state lactate values at each power level, or lactate values for a ramp of some certain w/min value. The slower the ramping, the closer the plotted lactate values would match the steady-state lactate v. power curve.

I think it was Biker-linz who once mentioned that the mechanisms which cause long-term fatigue were still largely unknown, so I wouldn't know whether lactate *eventually* begins to rise again at the end of a long ride. I wouldn't think that kind of long-term fatigue has any relevance to rides of ~1-2 hours (ie, L4), however.

FWIW. Hopefully Andy will reign me in again if I've over-assumed something else.