level 5 recovery times

[tk_bike]

How long do you tend to leave for recovery for l5 intervals?

Did my 1st lot today on the turbo trainer but based on a hill in a forthcoming race. In the pst i struggled over the top of the climb so did 4 mins at 110%ftp ~300w in a big gear at 70rpm, in and out of the saddle. this was followed by one minute in a lower gear with an initial sprint and holding a high power, normally 320-330w at about 100-110 rpm.

initially i had 5 minutes of recovery but my performance of the 2nd interval was pretty poor, i then increased this to 7.5 and finally 10 mins fr the 3rd and 4th interval. average power of the 4th interval was almost as good as the 1st (307 vs 309w).

I am thinking at this stage (that was my 1st l5 session) is to go with the long recovery intervals to keep the intensity high and cut it down as i progress.

Any thoughts?

 

[Spunout]

1:1 or less recovery.

If you are starting out, try 3 minute efforts a bit lower in the zone. Extended recovery may not be what is needed for your L5 goals.

Do not perform an initial sprint. Do not climb at 70rpm: Are you doing power work or L5 work?

 

[peterpen]

1:1 or less recovery.

If you are starting out, try 3 minute efforts a bit lower in the zone. Extended recovery may not be what is needed for your L5 goals.

Do not perform an initial sprint. Do not climb at 70rpm: Are you doing power work or L5 work?

While I tend to do 1:1 recovery for any interval done over FTP, I wonder where this 'rule' comes from? Why not take as much time as needed to meet the goals of the interval? Again, for me this does tend to be 1:1 but sometimes is more like 1:0.75 (if I'm doing hill repeats, the ride back down is pretty much total rest so I don't need as much time vs. on the flat where I might be doing some work in the rest interval.)

If I was doing intervals indoors, I'd pay attention to my HR as much as elapsed time, due to the danger of over-heating.

 

[Spunout]

If you recover fully, anaerobic pathways contribute to the first portion of the interval. By limiting your recovery, you avoid this.

 

[peterpen]

So is this 'full recovery' a set period of time (ie more than five minutes) or a function of the length of the work interval (ie 8m on so 8m off = full recovery) ? Perhaps the same question phrased differently: how long does it take for these anerobic pathways to recharge?

 

[TiMan]

How long do you tend to leave for recovery for l5 intervals?

Did my 1st lot today on the turbo trainer but based on a hill in a forthcoming race. In the pst i struggled over the top of the climb so did 4 mins at 110%ftp ~300w in a big gear at 70rpm, in and out of the saddle. this was followed by one minute in a lower gear with an initial sprint and holding a high power, normally 320-330w at about 100-110 rpm.

initially i had 5 minutes of recovery but my performance of the 2nd interval was pretty poor, i then increased this to 7.5 and finally 10 mins fr the 3rd and 4th interval. average power of the 4th interval was almost as good as the 1st (307 vs 309w).

I am thinking at this stage (that was my 1st l5 session) is to go with the long recovery intervals to keep the intensity high and cut it down as i progress.

Any thoughts?

It depends on interval length.

If you are doing 5 minute intervals it doesn't matter if you rest a bit more than 5 minutes, since you get about 3-3.5 minutes at VO2 max per interval.
However, with shorter intervals, like 3 minutes, it is best to keep the work /rest ratio shorter than 1 to 1. In this way you hit VO2 max sooner in the interval and maximize your time at VO2 per interval.

In my opinion longer intervals are superior to short ones for VO2 work.

You can also do shorter intervals, like 2-3 minutes, and at a slightly higher power output, and that adds a small anaerobic component to the workout.

 

[rmur17]

How long do you tend to leave for recovery for l5 intervals?

Did my 1st lot today on the turbo trainer but based on a hill in a forthcoming race. In the pst i struggled over the top of the climb so did 4 mins at 110%ftp ~300w in a big gear at 70rpm, in and out of the saddle. this was followed by one minute in a lower gear with an initial sprint and holding a high power, normally 320-330w at about 100-110 rpm.

initially i had 5 minutes of recovery but my performance of the 2nd interval was pretty poor, i then increased this to 7.5 and finally 10 mins fr the 3rd and 4th interval. average power of the 4th interval was almost as good as the 1st (307 vs 309w).

I am thinking at this stage (that was my 1st l5 session) is to go with the long recovery intervals to keep the intensity high and cut it down as i progress.

Any thoughts?

what power level are you riding at during the recovery interval on the trainer?

0.5-1.0: 1 recovery/work ratio's are very much standard.

Isn't there a study that showed less time at or about Vo2max with quite long recovery periods?

 

[Spunout]

A study probably shows it.

A better way to show this would be to look at your HR data for a L5 workout. The physiological goal is to increase FTP and higher adaptations. Higher work levels occur when the HR rate is above your FT HR.

Do 5(5,5) at 110%(somewhere in Z5) FTP and use HR bins to note your time in L5 HR zone.

Do 5(5,8 or 10) at same % FTP and bin the HR zones again.

In scenario 2, your HR will spend less time in the L5 bin. Look at the graphs for the interval sets and you'll see how this works.

OTOH, this is a good argument to use HR and Power in your workouts, at least for post-ride analyses.

 

[tk_bike]

Thanks for the replies.

i had intended to go for 1:1 work:rest ratios but found i could not complete the desired work without longer recovery.

For the recoveries i was spinning very easily, average of 80-90 w.

In terms of quality of the interval my 1st and last were by far superior than the middle 2 where recovery time was less.

I was doing these intervals with the aim of simulating the effort of a climb in a forthcoming race - 1.4km climb, very steep followed by a long false flat, hence the 4 min at 70rpm to simulate the climb before increasing the cadence for the false flat bit. Looking at the data i have from training on the climb again, i think it will require a higher power to get over it in 4 minutes, since taking it easy, or as easy as was possible, it took 6 minutes at 295 w (unfortunately i don't think the race bike will make a massive difference in power requirements!). Maybe i will have to modify my intervals in preparation for this, but this was my 1st go at them so some fine tuning may be necessary.

These are aimed at being l5 intervals, but with the addition of being preparation for a scenario in which i have struggled in the past!

I am of the opinion that a little extra recovery time is worth it if i can do a few more quality reps per session, but it seems alot of people stick to more rigid schedules?

 

[giannip]

Thanks for the replies.

i had intended to go for 1:1 work:rest ratios but found i could not complete the desired work without longer recovery.

For the recoveries i was spinning very easily, average of 80-90 w.

In terms of quality of the interval my 1st and last were by far superior than the middle 2 where recovery time was less.

Could this not mean that maybe your FTP estimate is a bit high ?

Just wondering.

 

[frenchyge]

Could this not mean that maybe your FTP estimate is a bit high ?

That would be my guess, or the OP is just not up to pushing as hard as needed for that type of workout for some reason (ie, residual fatigue from previous workouts, low motivation, etc.). By my reading, FTP is ~270w and the interval avg power is 307-309w. I would expect 1:1 would be sufficient for four 5min intervals at 1.15xFTP.

 

[otb4evr]

That would be my guess, or the OP is just not up to pushing as hard as needed for that type of workout for some reason (ie, residual fatigue from previous workouts, low motivation, etc.). By my reading, FTP is ~270w and the interval avg power is 307-309w. I would expect 1:1 would be sufficient for four 5min intervals at 1.15xFTP.

I honestly think that one's physiological make up plays a huge factor in determining L5 interval percentages.

For instance, a slow-twitcher can do the stated goal of 115%, whereas a fast-twitcher might struggle with 110%.

Alls you can do is alls you can do...

Jim

 

[otb4evr]

While I tend to do 1:1 recovery for any interval done over FTP, I wonder where this 'rule' comes from? Why not take as much time as needed to meet the goals of the interval? Again, for me this does tend to be 1:1 but sometimes is more like 1:0.75 (if I'm doing hill repeats, the ride back down is pretty much total rest so I don't need as much time vs. on the flat where I might be doing some work in the rest interval.)

If I was doing intervals indoors, I'd pay attention to my HR as much as elapsed time, due to the danger of over-heating.

I think this interesting...

Here is what Dr. C said on the wattage forum about L5 intervals last year:

http://groups.google.com/group/wattage/msg/5f11a5069c69e898?dmode=source&hl=en

Pay special attention to #2...

Jim

 

[Spunout]

Jim, post the text...membership only above.

 

[otb4evr]

Jim, post the text...membership only above.

Sorry, I had forgotten...

Free membership, though, and another great reference site...

2) since the goal of VO2max intervals is to train VO2max, IMHO it is
probably better to do fewer efforts at a somewhat higher intensity than
it is to do more efforts at a somewhat lower intensity (if you're
training on the bike, anyway). More specifically, if your normalized
power during a set of intervals is bumping up against your
power-duration curve, then you may be able to make greater progress by
inserting longer rest periods so that you can do the intervals at a
higher intensity.

Jim

 

[tk_bike]

Estimates ftp is 270, this is from the cp model using efforts on the turbo trainer, i seem to be able to do much more outside thaan inside, i think part of this is a mental thing as i have trouble getting my head around the efforts.

I think the estimate is not far off, i do 3x20's at 260-265 and finish them comfortably but since i haven't done anything in racing for an hour since last october then it's hard to say (i did one race with my PT in october when i was relatively unfit and normalised power for a 1hour crit was 267 but i wasn't in the break or anything), not that i'm ruling out the ftp estimate being too high.

Incidentally, my measured power at vo2max is between 340 and 375 w, but this was done on a lode ergometer so i'm not too sure how this measures relative to the pt?!

I will try th session again and maybe once i get used to it a little more the percieved effort and lack of recovery won't be as high!

 

[frenchyge]

For instance, a slow-twitcher can do the stated goal of 115%, whereas a fast-twitcher might struggle with 110%.

Certainly it would vary by individual to some extent, but wouldn't the fast-twitcher have the greater difference between 60min and 5min power (mostly on account of the very low 60min power)?

Alls you can do is alls you can do...

Now that I can agree with.

 

[acoggan]

Incidentally, my measured power at vo2max is between 340 and 375 w

Is this your power at VO2max, or your power at the end of a VO2max test? They aren't the same thing...

 

[tk_bike]

Is this your power at VO2max, or your power at the end of a VO2max test? They aren't the same thing...

the last time i was tested, which was a while ago, vo2 max occurred at the 340 w stage, hr was not too close to max but RER 1.16 (stage was 3 min increments increasing 35 w per stage from 95 w starting). I always 'die' at some point during the next stage, hence saying vo2 max was USUALLY 340-375 w (i used to get dragged into doing lots of studies so i've had a few!).

Any insight into the difference, if any, between the power measured on a powertap and a Lode?

Cheers!

 

[otb4evr]

Certainly it would vary by individual to some extent, but wouldn't the fast-twitcher have the greater difference between 60min and 5min power (mostly on account of the very low 60min power)?

This is nothing but pure conjecture, but based upon what I have seen with several athletes, including myself, over the past year and a half...

I think the slow-twitchers ability to generate power at the 5 minute time slot is based more upon aerobic contribution.

As this is a power source that is more fatigue resistant than the anaerobic energy system, the slow twitchers have been able to hold a higher percentage of their FTP for the specified VO2Max intervals...

As I said, this is just a guess...

Jim