Lieswyn's Off Season

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Maurice De Muer, Jan 23, 2003.

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  1. This is some funny shit, from JL's "2002 USA Cycling Awards," from the the weirdly interesting:

    www.racelistings.com/rzone/rzone.htm

    Worst Caravan Driver

    John Wordin. I've laid on the brakes hard numerous times when he has tried to fit his Mercury
    between the pack and a rapidly approaching concrete bridge abutment, sign, or parked car. In his
    defense, his team's riding earns Wordin the right and necessity to continually bomb past the peloton
    on his way to the break, which his team never misses. I bet the euro peloton wasn't too impressed
    with his blunderbuss approach to driving whenever he supplanted the euro directors of
    Mercury/Viatel. Wordin did find a euro team car horn that livened up the caravan a few times these
    last two years!

    Maurice, has heard many Euro pros scorn Wordin's "blunderbuss approach to driving" Freiburg
     
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  2. Maurice De Muer <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > This is some funny shit, from JL's "2002 USA Cycling Awards," from the the weirdly interesting:
    >
    > www.racelistings.com/rzone/rzone.htm
    >
    > Worst Caravan Driver
    >
    > Maurice, has heard many Euro pros scorn Wordin's "blunderbuss approach to driving" Freiburg

    Do you think Wordin will run him over with the car before McCook can crash him out? RVD
     
  3. Alan Atwood

    Alan Atwood Guest

    From the same article..........

    Worst Race Organization

    Anybody who tries to hold a yellow line rule road race. No USA Cycling sanction should be given to
    an organizer trying to hold a road race under "yellow line rule" (open roads without rolling police
    enclosure). A 17 year old boy lost his life in Asheville NC a few years ago in a "yellow line" road
    race, and the event never happened again. The city still won't support bike racing. This is the MOST
    DANGEROUS, NEGLIGENT condition for racing so don't organize it, race it, or support it!

    ************************

    OK, John. Got it. Hey, let's do a road race; you go make the arrangements for the police, road
    closure permits, town and state permits, alert for town residents, public meetings, extra officials,
    extra support vehicles; and I'll come up the ~$25,000 to pay for all this.

    Even in the economic boom of the '90's you could not even come close to raising the funds needed
    to do this. Just talk to the guy who ran last year's VOS. If we decided to run races the way
    John wanted, the road race as we know it would cease to exist. We'd be just a culture of
    criterium experts.

    Get real John. If you don't want to show up for a local road race; fine. You won't be missed.

    Oh, by the way, what's your phone number so I can put it down as a contact for public feedback on
    our proposed event.

    Maurice De Muer <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > This is some funny shit, from JL's "2002 USA Cycling Awards," from the the weirdly interesting:
    >
    > www.racelistings.com/rzone/rzone.htm
    >
    > Worst Caravan Driver
    >
    > John Wordin. I've laid on the brakes hard numerous times when he has tried to fit his Mercury
    > between the pack and a rapidly approaching concrete bridge abutment, sign, or parked car. In his
    > defense, his team's riding earns Wordin the right and necessity to continually bomb past the
    > peloton on his way to the break, which his team never misses. I bet the euro peloton wasn't too
    > impressed with his blunderbuss approach to driving whenever he supplanted the euro directors of
    > Mercury/Viatel. Wordin did find a euro team car horn that livened up the caravan a few times these
    > last two years!
    >
    > Maurice, has heard many Euro pros scorn Wordin's "blunderbuss approach to driving" Freiburg
     
  4. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    DanSchmatz <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I'd rather race crits than get run over.

    The two aren't mutually exclusive. Ask Skip "Speed Bump" Spangenberg.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  5. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    John Lieswyn <[email protected]> wrote:
    > See #5... I can't believe this moron, Bob Schwartz...

    John, take the time to talk to someone in Iowa that actually organizes races. Run your minimum
    requirements past that person. It is possible to run short circuit races on closed courses in parks.
    The Lake Park races in Superweek for example. Once you get beyond that scale you need to have a lot
    of cash and/or political muscle behind you. Dave LaPorte could tell you about what it takes to run
    the road races that he runs. Its a lot, don't kid yourself. And likewise, don't kid yourself that
    the community and political support that NRC races get is normal. I am absolutely in awe of the
    resources and effort and money and political backing that he is able to pull together for the stuff
    he runs. That is very, very, exceptional. It is also because the base cause is a charity for kids
    and not bike racing.

    The race that you mention as being safe and well run does not meet your requirements by the way. You
    were counting on the low traffic counts and (I'm guessing) great sight lines from a lack of terrain
    to allow the yellow line to be disregarded. But maybe we will see you at one of our races because
    that's what we do to secure the course i.e. corner marshals in an area with very little traffic.
    You're welcome to come if you have the time. But we do enforce the center line because in spite of
    the lack of traffic there are many places where you can't see well enough up the road. We're not
    lucky enough to be as dead flat as Iowa. If that is unacceptable then we'll miss you.

    But you didn't have a closed course or a rolling enclosure at that race in Iowa. An incident like
    the one in Ashville could have happened. Low traffic count roads are not necessarily any safer
    because one of the things that happens in those situations is that people eventually assume there is
    nothing up the road. Even if you have great sight lines, you can still have problems with overtaking
    vehicles. No shit. I can think of at least one case where people spilled over the yellow line as a
    guy with his foot heavy on the gas was coming. It was only timing that made the major cost of that
    incident nothing more than a pissed off driver. This was on a low traffic count road like that safe
    race you did in Iowa. That's why we enforce the yellow line even if there is nothing up the road. If
    VOS had traffic count issues then maybe it is a good thing that the race is gone, but traffic count
    is not the entire story.

    I am very aware of the risks of bike racing. I do not believe that the risk of racing a yellow line
    race is greater than the risk of getting into the car to drive to said race. Think about that for a
    second. If someone crashed and died on the way to a race do you think anyone outside the local
    racing community would hear about it? Probably not. People die in cars all the time.

    You haven't done your homework. Go talk to someone that has actually organized a road race. Ask them
    about the effort and clout and money required to meet your minimum standards. Go to the cops where
    you live, tell them you want to put on a road race. Ask them what you'd need to get their OK. Be
    sure to ask if they wouldn't mind volunteering their time like those cops at the race you mentioned.
    *Then* come back and if you still think I'm a moron, go ahead and call me a moron. But I have done
    all those things and you are talking about clearing the calendar of road races in order to avoid a
    very real but very small amount of risk. You are not yet qualified to call me a moron.

    Actually I haven't done all those things. I've never asked a cop to volunteer their time. We have
    gotten free cops though, but only because the city tourism people had gotten general event support
    built into the police budget. They sure as hell weren't doing it just for us.

    BTW The city of Milwaukee has motorcycle cops. They are the only cop jurisdiction in the state of
    Wisconsin that I am aware of that does. A rolling enclosure is not possible for me at any price.

    Also BTW, there were road races almost every weekend here last summer. Aside from the aforementioned
    Superweek closed course park races and a couple that are held on pavement that is not open to the
    public to begin with, none of them meet your standards. And I do not believe any of them could,
    although most meet the standard of that "safe" race in Iowa. If someone is ever unfortunate to get
    whacked by a car and die while participating, the race fatality race will still be dwarved by the
    fatality rate suffered by people training for those races.

    The "cram it someplace dark" comment was because I think that if someone ever gets whacked at one of
    those safe races like the one in Iowa we will see that statement in court regardless of where any
    fault lies because it is an expert opinion that there is negligence in even offering such a race. On
    behalf of organizers everywhere I say, thanks loads.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]

    Do you wear your helmet in the car? Why not?
     
  6. Monkeyhillcs

    Monkeyhillcs Guest

    << OK, John. Got it. Hey, let's do a road race; you go make the arrangements for the police, road
    closure permits, town and state permits, alert for town residents, public meetings, extra officials,
    extra support vehicles; and I'll come up the ~$25,000 to pay for all this. >>

    Ok, so it is slightly more difficult than doing an industrial park crit, but let's not get too
    crazy here.

    For the road race I put on with rolling enclosure. 3 state troopers at $55 hr for a 100+ mile RR is
    only about $1000. The officials for both days of a race weekend is only about $1500 I think. There
    is no charge to use the public roads.

    Andrew Albright
     
  7. Danschmatz

    Danschmatz Guest

    I'd rather race crits than get run over.
     
  8. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "DanSchmatz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I'd rather race crits than get run over.

    Is that an endorsement of rolling road closures, or a slam at Wordin's driving skills?

    Andy Coggan (who wonders if Wordin went to the Papa Roy Stetina School of Driving?)
     
  9. G. Cook

    G. Cook Guest

    If you are happy racing only crits, great, but all you have to do is pretend the yellow line is a
    curb. Its not very difficult.

    "DanSchmatz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I'd rather race crits than get run over.
     
  10. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    DanSchmatz <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I'd rather race crits than get run over.

    I'd rather race crits than get hit by lightning. But I really don't spend much time worrying about
    getting hit by lightning. Or getting run over during a race. I think I take a comparable risk every
    time I get in the car. The 50% of the field that is juicing on ephedra is taking a greater risk
    before the race even starts.

    I am very concerned that he has voiced an expert opinion that 99% of the road races in this country
    are inherently dangerous and that promoters that do not take steps that are simply not financially
    or logistically possible in most cases are negligent.

    For every venue that is lost because of a fatality like the one he cites in Ashville there are a
    million that are lost because someone takes a leak in public or because people are pissed off
    because they can't drive any speed they want on any road they want at any time they want.

    I like John and his writing but I'd like to take that particular paragraph and cram it
    someplace dark.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  11. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    Monkeyhillcs <[email protected]> wrote:
    > << OK, John. Got it. Hey, let's do a road race; you go make the arrangements for the police, road
    > closure permits, town and state permits, alert for town residents, public meetings, extra
    > officials, extra support vehicles; and I'll come up the ~$25,000 to pay for all this. >>

    > Ok, so it is slightly more difficult than doing an industrial park crit, but let's not get too
    > crazy here.

    > For the road race I put on with rolling enclosure. 3 state troopers at $55 hr for a 100+ mile RR
    > is only about $1000. The officials for both days of a race weekend is only about $1500 I think.
    > There is no charge to use the public roads.

    That's 3 cops/field, right?

    Having cops at your race is a good thing, no doubt about that. People that will show up at town
    meetings and scream until their face turns blue over having to wait 3 seconds for a race to pass
    will not make a peep if there is a cop leading the race because its the cop that is making them
    stop, not an unruly mob of homos on bikes. So they can be worth the expense for that alone.

    But that is a level of expense that is an option for only a tiny percentage of races even if the
    required number of motorcycle cops is available, which in most cases is not. There is no police
    jurisdiction that I can think of as even being a remote possibility for a race that I might put on
    that even has moto cops and that includes state troopers. And since a rolling enclosure isn't really
    an option with cops in squad cars that means that what Lieswyn feels is the absolute base acceptable
    level of road closure is not possible for for me as a promoter unless I have enough cash to buy my
    own roads. A 'Lieswyn Approved' race has multiple levels of impossibility for me. I guess we won't
    be seeing him.

    Hell, I'll bet there isn't a single moto cop in the entire state of Iowa where he lives. Can anyone
    tell me I'm wrong on that? If he'd hang out with the people that organize races in Ames I'll bet
    he'd find out very quickly the magnitude of his gap with reality.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  12. John Lieswyn

    John Lieswyn Guest

    See #5... I can't believe this moron, Bob Schwartz...

    1) I did quite a few (60 plus) road (or circuit larger than 3km) races last year. One of them
    scared me. VOS.

    2) Here in Iowa I did a few as well. One in particular cost very little to run. The first place
    prize was a waterbottle or something. I attended because it was safe, great training, and I love
    racing. There were volunteers and volunteer off duty cops on every corner stopping traffic. There
    isn't much traffic in the part of Iowa where the race was held. And there are motorcycle cops in
    this state, brainiac.

    3) Pretending the yellow line is a curb DOESN'T WORK when the guy in front of you slams on his
    brakes and you have one option: slam into him or cross the line. That was the option presented to
    the now DEAD junior rider from Asheville. I nearly DIED when I swerved over the line at VOS into
    the path of an oncoming semi because of a near pileup right in front of me. Let's say you are
    doing a "yellow line rule" race and there is a crash in front of you. You are either in the crash
    or forced around it, either way you are over the line. A car runs you over. Will you be so gung
    ho to promote or attend a yellow line rule in the future, given you survive the accident?

    4) VOS was a circuit race, not point to point.

    5) BOB: since when are 99% of the road races in America "yellow line rule" ?????? Logic...

    "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > DanSchmatz <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > I'd rather race crits than get run over.
    >
    > I'd rather race crits than get hit by lightning. But I really don't spend much time worrying about
    > getting hit by lightning. Or getting run over during a race. I think I take a comparable risk
    > every time I get in the car. The 50% of the field that is juicing on ephedra is taking a greater
    > risk before the race even starts.
    >
    > I am very concerned that he has voiced an expert opinion that 99% of the road races in this
    > country are inherently dangerous and that promoters that do not take steps that are simply not
    > financially or logistically possible in most cases are negligent.
    >
    > For every venue that is lost because of a fatality like the one he cites in Ashville there are a
    > million that are lost because someone takes a leak in public or because people are pissed off
    > because they can't drive any speed they want on any road they want at any time they want.
    >
    > I like John and his writing but I'd like to take that particular paragraph and cram it
    > someplace dark.
    >
    > Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  13. How would you compare a road race here in New Zealand (Tour of Southland for example) with an open
    road race in the US? STF
     
  14. Canuck

    Canuck Guest

    "John Lieswyn" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > See #5... I can't believe this moron, Bob Schwartz...
    >
    > 1) I did quite a few (60 plus) road (or circuit larger than 3km) races
    last
    > year. One of them scared me. VOS.
    >
    > 2) Here in Iowa I did a few as well. One in particular cost very little
    to
    > run. The first place prize was a waterbottle or something. I attended because it was safe, great
    > training, and I love racing. There were volunteers and volunteer off duty cops on every corner
    > stopping traffic. There isn't much traffic in the part of Iowa where the race was held. And there
    > are motorcycle cops in this state, brainiac.
    >
    > 3) Pretending the yellow line is a curb DOESN'T WORK when the guy in front of you slams on his
    > brakes and you have one option: slam into him or cross the line. That was the option presented
    > to the now DEAD junior rider from Asheville. I nearly DIED when I swerved over the line at VOS
    > into the
    path
    > of an oncoming semi because of a near pileup right in front of me. Let's say you are doing a
    > "yellow line rule" race and there is a crash in front
    of
    > you. You are either in the crash or forced around it, either way you are over the line. A car runs
    > you over. Will you be so gung ho to promote or attend a yellow line rule in the future, given you
    > survive the accident?
    >
    > 4) VOS was a circuit race, not point to point.

    I agree with Mr. L.

    VOS can be extremely dangerous. Why doesn't the White Mountain Club move the RR to the site of the
    Superior RR, 1 hour east of Phoenix? Very safe course in comparison - no traffic, difficult climbs.

    I was going to email them last year about it, but oh well.
     
  15. John Lieswyn

    John Lieswyn Guest

    I've only done a handful of yellow line road races in the USA in my 17 years. I always avoided them
    when I could and now it could be the USPRO road race championships and I wouldn't go if it was held
    under yellow line rule (a bit of exaggeration there to make my point). You will see the entire
    Saturn team at Valley of the Sun and if it is run under yellow line rule I won't be there, NRC
    points or not. Plus, as a out of stater (not local to Arizona) why spend $700 going to a race in
    Arizona with no publicity, no prizemoney?

    How does a "open" (yellow line rule) race compare to the Southland tour? Apples to Oranges.
    Southland Tour has rolling enclosure. I never once in two outings there and two dozen road races
    there saw a car/truck coming at us head on. For all you people who are emailing me confused about my
    statements on Asheville, read carefully. In the previous sentence the grammatical structure is "I
    NEVER ONCE" which means that I DID NOT. Once again, read carefully. I did not say Asheville doesn't
    have great cycling scene. I only said that Bele Chere isn't around anymore thanks to yellow line
    rule race disaster. TO MAKE IT EVER SO CLEAR (can you tell I'm annoyed that people can't read?)
    Asheville has a great cycling scene, and annual races that are lots of fun and safely run.

    John "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > How would you compare a road race here in New Zealand (Tour of Southland
    for
    > example) with an open road race in the US? STF
     
  16. >Subject: Re: Lieswyn's Off Season From: [email protected] (DanSchmatz) Date: 12/17/02 9:54 PM
    >Central Standard Time Message-id: <[email protected]>
    >
    >I'd rather race crits than get run over.

    I'll second that. Why would anyone want to race for 100 miles in the US when everyone knows the real
    money is in crits...

    thanks, jason
     
  17. Bbc3

    Bbc3 Guest

    "Jason Waddell" wrote:
    > I'll second that. Why would anyone want to race for 100 miles in the US
    when
    > everyone knows the real money is in crits...

    Hmmm. Real Money? I can't tell if you are being facetious or not. I was pretty sure that very few
    cyclists are in the sport for the "Real Money." What do you consider real money? As far as road
    races are concerned, I for one would like to see more of them. Here in Colorado it seems a bit
    difficult to get CDOT (CO Dept of Trans) to approve a road race. I think this is a shame since this
    state has the potential to be the best road race state in the nation. Besides, road races can be
    kinda cool since they tend separate cyclists based on fitness levels more quickly than crits. Office
    park crits just don't seem to be the key to keeping "Real Money" in this sport. I think you need big
    road races to get and keep the "Real Money" around.

    --
    Bill
     
  18. Velorodsmom

    Velorodsmom Guest

    [email protected] (Jason Waddell) wrote in message
    > I'll second that. Why would anyone want to race for 100 miles in the US when everyone knows the
    > real money is in crits...
    >

    Cause crits are for fags. At least that's what my son Rodney tells me all the time.

    Sincerely Norma Kingston
     
  19. John Lieswyn

    John Lieswyn Guest

    I didn't claim that there isn't much racing in Asheville. I SAID that the fatality meant the end of
    a great event (the Bele Chere cycling road race)

    Come on people. If you are going to quote or criticize me, at least read my stuff thoroughly first.
    Don't misquote it.

    And how do you (Mr. Tennessee) respond to my scenario for an accident? This scenario can be avoided.
    Hold your road races on circuits that can be converted to rolling enclosure, have corner marshals,
    do whatever you need to do to avoid a potential head on. Look, it might take one month, one year, or
    ten years, but keep holding yellow line rule races and someone will die for no other reason than
    THAT RULE. I know racing is dangerous. I did 120 races last year and there was plenty of danger. I
    bungee jump, fly planes, drive fast, walk down busy roads. I'm telling you that yellow line racing
    1) isn't racing the way racing is meant to be: see your statement about one team being able to shut
    down the field easily 2) harder to enforce fairly (how many guys crossed the line at VOS that didn't
    get DQ'd? I would say any rider who didn't get dropped by the main field that day CROSSED THE LINE.
    But, most importantly: 3) is far more dangerous than any other kind of bike racing.

    "Bikerecker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >For every venue that is lost because of a fatality like the one he cites in Ashville there are a
    > >million that are lost because
    >
    > The Belle Chere race fatality in Asheville was caused when the ill-fated
    rider
    > crossed the center line and got waxed by a dump truck. The Tour de Moore (?) Cat 3 accident from a
    > few years earlier had a
    rolling
    > closure. No one died in the Tour de Moore, but it was a horrible
    accident.
    > The Asheville area supports a lot of racing (despite Ashevillian JL's
    claim to
    > the contrary), and the Tour de Moore continues. Face it, bike racing
    isn't
    > safe, whether crit or road race, closed course or not. Hell, one of my teammates got side swiped
    > by a pickup in a time trial, for chrissakes.
    >
    > In TN, there is strict adherence to the yellow line rule. My only
    complaint is
    > that on the narrow back roads that comprise many of our venues, one team
    can
    > completely shut down the field, making many of the smaller races very defensive. OTOH, we have a
    > good variety of races on great courses
    throughout
    > the season. Greg
     
  20. Laudien

    Laudien Guest

    Good race directors find ways to put on safe, quality races.

    Putting riders in danger because to do otherwise would be challenging or financially difficult is a
    poor excuse and a worse policy.

    Holding a race with more than 40-50 riders and depending on the centerline is poor and unsafe race
    organization.

    Monkeyhillcs wrote:

    > From: Bob Schwartz [email protected]
    >
    > <<That's 3 cops/field, right?>>
    >
    > No. 2 cops per field, and a ton of motorcycle officials. Delaware doesn't have motorocycle state
    > troopers.
    >
    > >>But that is a level of expense that is an option for only a tiny
    > percentage of races even if the required number of motorcycle cops is available, which in most
    > cases is not. There is no police jurisdiction that I can think of as even being a remote
    > possibility for a race that I might put on that even has moto cops and that includes state
    > troopers. And since a rolling enclosure isn't really an option with cops in squad cars>>>
    >
    > Wrong, see above. I think that most East Coast races with rolling enclosures don't have motor
    > police. I can think of only FU-philly and Tour deWarsaw that have motorcycle police.
    >
    > There are a lot of officials with motorcycles. Or you could do like Bill Laudien and shut the
    > road down in one direction. Then you don't really need that many mobile police.
    >
    > I think that John L has a better appreciation for what can be done and what is done across the
    > country. While he may not know shit from shinola WRT to promoting the rr;'s.
     
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