Life in Palestine



limerickman

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2004
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Chris McGreal in Jerusalem


Of all the revelations that have rocked the Israeli army over the past week, perhaps none disturbed the public so much as the video footage of soldiers forcing a Palestinian man to play his violin.
The incident was not as shocking as the recording of an Israeli officer pumping the body of a 13-year-old girl full of bullets and then saying he would have shot her even if she had been three years old.

Nor was it as nauseating as the pictures in an Israeli newspaper of ultra-orthodox soldiers mocking Palestinian corpses by impaling a man's head on a pole and sticking a cigarette in his mouth.

But the matter of the violin touched on something deeper about the way Israelis see themselves, and their conflict with the Palestinians.

The violinist, Wissam Tayem, was on his way to a music lesson near Nablus when he said an Israeli officer ordered him to "play something sad" while soldiers made fun of him. After several minutes, he was told he could pass.

It may be that the soldiers wanted Mr Tayem to prove he was indeed a musician walking to a lesson because, as a man under 30, he would not normally have been permitted through the checkpoint.

But after the incident was videotaped by Jewish women peace activists, it prompted revulsion among Israelis not normally perturbed about the treatment of Arabs.

The rightwing Army Radio commentator Uri Orbach found the incident disturbingly reminiscent of Jewish musicians forced to provide background music to mass murder. "What about Majdanek?" he asked, referring to the Nazi extermination camp.

The critics were not drawing a parallel between an Israeli roadblock and a Nazi camp. Their concern was that Jewish suffering had been diminished by the humiliation of Mr Tayem.

Yoram Kaniuk, author of a book about a Jewish violinist forced to play for a concentration camp commander, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper that the soldiers responsible should be put on trial "not for abusing Arabs but for disgracing the Holocaust".

"Of all the terrible things done at the roadblocks, this story is one which negates the very possibility of the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. If [the military] does not put these soldiers on trial we will have no moral right to speak of ourselves as a state that rose from the Holocaust," he wrote.

"If we allow Jewish soldiers to put an Arab violinist at a roadblock and laugh at him, we have succeeded in arriving at the lowest moral point possible. Our entire existence in this Arab region was justified, and is still justified, by our suffering; by Jewish violinists in the camps."

Others took a broader view by drawing a link between the routine dehumanising treatment of Palestinians at checkpoints, the desecration of dead bodies and what looks very much like the murder of a terrified 13-year-old Palestinian girl by an army officer in Gaza.

Israelis put great store in a belief that their army is "the most moral in the world" because it says it adheres to a code of "the purity of arms". There is rarely much public questioning of the army's routine explanation that Palestinian civilians who have been killed had been "caught in crossfire", or that children are shot because they are used as cover by fighters.

But the public's confidence has been shaken by the revelations of the past week. The audio recording of the shooting of the 13-year-old, Iman al-Hams, prompted much soul searching, although the revulsion appears to be as much at the Israeli officer firing a stream of bullets into her lifeless body as the killing itself. Some soldiers told Israeli papers that their mothers had sought assurances that they did not do that kind of thing.

One Israeli peace group, the Arik Institute, took out large newspaper adverts to plead for "Jewish patriots" to "open your eyes and look around" at the suffering of Palestinians.

The incidents prompted the army to call in all commanders from the rank of lieutenant-colonel to emphasise the importance of maintaining the "purity of arms" code.

The army's critics say the real problem is not the behaviour of soldiers on the ground but the climate of impunity that emanates from the top.

While the officer responsible for killing Iman al-Hams has been charged with relatively minor offences, and the soldiers who forced the violinist to play were ticked off for being "insensitive", the only troops who were swiftly punished for violating regulations last week were some who posed naked in the snow for a photograph. They were dismissed from their unit.

Last week the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem criticised what it described as a "culture of impunity" within the army. The group says at least 1,656 Palestinian non-combatants have been killed during the intifada, including 529 children.

"To date, one soldier has been convicted of causing the death of a Palestinian," it said.

"The combination of rules of engagement that encourage a trigger-happy attitude among soldiers together with the climate of impunity results in a clear and very troubling message about the value the Israeli military places on Palestinian life."

 
limerickman said:
Chris McGreal in Jerusalem


Of all the revelations that have rocked the Israeli army over the past week, perhaps none disturbed the public so much as the video footage of soldiers forcing a Palestinian man to play his violin.
The incident was not as shocking as the recording of an Israeli officer pumping the body of a 13-year-old girl full of bullets and then saying he would have shot her even if she had been three years old.

Nor was it as nauseating as the pictures in an Israeli newspaper of ultra-orthodox soldiers mocking Palestinian corpses by impaling a man's head on a pole and sticking a cigarette in his mouth.

But the matter of the violin touched on something deeper about the way Israelis see themselves, and their conflict with the Palestinians.

The violinist, Wissam Tayem, was on his way to a music lesson near Nablus when he said an Israeli officer ordered him to "play something sad" while soldiers made fun of him. After several minutes, he was told he could pass.

It may be that the soldiers wanted Mr Tayem to prove he was indeed a musician walking to a lesson because, as a man under 30, he would not normally have been permitted through the checkpoint.

But after the incident was videotaped by Jewish women peace activists, it prompted revulsion among Israelis not normally perturbed about the treatment of Arabs.

The rightwing Army Radio commentator Uri Orbach found the incident disturbingly reminiscent of Jewish musicians forced to provide background music to mass murder. "What about Majdanek?" he asked, referring to the Nazi extermination camp.

The critics were not drawing a parallel between an Israeli roadblock and a Nazi camp. Their concern was that Jewish suffering had been diminished by the humiliation of Mr Tayem.

Yoram Kaniuk, author of a book about a Jewish violinist forced to play for a concentration camp commander, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper that the soldiers responsible should be put on trial "not for abusing Arabs but for disgracing the Holocaust".

"Of all the terrible things done at the roadblocks, this story is one which negates the very possibility of the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. If [the military] does not put these soldiers on trial we will have no moral right to speak of ourselves as a state that rose from the Holocaust," he wrote.

"If we allow Jewish soldiers to put an Arab violinist at a roadblock and laugh at him, we have succeeded in arriving at the lowest moral point possible. Our entire existence in this Arab region was justified, and is still justified, by our suffering; by Jewish violinists in the camps."

Others took a broader view by drawing a link between the routine dehumanising treatment of Palestinians at checkpoints, the desecration of dead bodies and what looks very much like the murder of a terrified 13-year-old Palestinian girl by an army officer in Gaza.

Israelis put great store in a belief that their army is "the most moral in the world" because it says it adheres to a code of "the purity of arms". There is rarely much public questioning of the army's routine explanation that Palestinian civilians who have been killed had been "caught in crossfire", or that children are shot because they are used as cover by fighters.

But the public's confidence has been shaken by the revelations of the past week. The audio recording of the shooting of the 13-year-old, Iman al-Hams, prompted much soul searching, although the revulsion appears to be as much at the Israeli officer firing a stream of bullets into her lifeless body as the killing itself. Some soldiers told Israeli papers that their mothers had sought assurances that they did not do that kind of thing.

One Israeli peace group, the Arik Institute, took out large newspaper adverts to plead for "Jewish patriots" to "open your eyes and look around" at the suffering of Palestinians.

The incidents prompted the army to call in all commanders from the rank of lieutenant-colonel to emphasise the importance of maintaining the "purity of arms" code.

The army's critics say the real problem is not the behaviour of soldiers on the ground but the climate of impunity that emanates from the top.

While the officer responsible for killing Iman al-Hams has been charged with relatively minor offences, and the soldiers who forced the violinist to play were ticked off for being "insensitive", the only troops who were swiftly punished for violating regulations last week were some who posed naked in the snow for a photograph. They were dismissed from their unit.

Last week the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem criticised what it described as a "culture of impunity" within the army. The group says at least 1,656 Palestinian non-combatants have been killed during the intifada, including 529 children.

"To date, one soldier has been convicted of causing the death of a Palestinian," it said.

"The combination of rules of engagement that encourage a trigger-happy attitude among soldiers together with the climate of impunity results in a clear and very troubling message about the value the Israeli military places on Palestinian life."

As you know, I lived there many years ago, and saw a lot of very nasty things, pretty much the same as you report. Indeed some very gruesome behaviour. So I'll tell you a true story. I became friends with a well spoken, well educated public schoolboy, who was in his mid twenties, and although he never told anyone except Eliou (French) and myself his father owned the premier Jewish newspaper in the UK. He, like I, could not come to terms with the way the Israelis? treated the arabs, after all their sufferings during WW2. he was absolutely disgusted, so much so, that one afternoon, he told me that he was now anti-semitic, or at least anti Israel and all it stood for. I just said 'OK Asher'. Anyhow a few days passed. Then he rang his father, there were only the two of us in the room. He told his father what he now thought, and told him to wipe his **** on the paper, thus abandoning his inheritence. He came back to England eventually, and did something completely different, and in which he became a great success as befits a man of moral courage. I still speak to him from time to time.
 
FredC said:
As you know, I lived there many years ago, and saw a lot of very nasty things, pretty much the same as you report. Indeed some very gruesome behaviour. So I'll tell you a true story. I became friends with a well spoken, well educated public schoolboy, who was in his mid twenties, and although he never told anyone except Eliou (French) and myself his father owned the premier Jewish newspaper in the UK. He, like I, could not come to terms with the way the Israelis? treated the arabs, after all their sufferings during WW2. he was absolutely disgusted, so much so, that one afternoon, he told me that he was now anti-semitic, or at least anti Israel and all it stood for. I just said 'OK Asher'. Anyhow a few days passed. Then he rang his father, there were only the two of us in the room. He told his father what he now thought, and told him to wipe his **** on the paper, thus abandoning his inheritence. He came back to England eventually, and did something completely different, and in which he became a great success as befits a man of moral courage. I still speak to him from time to time.
Incredible isn't it? None of the Murky Shofah Blowers have turned up to comment on the abominations perpetrated by their own kith and kindreds. It is not too long ago that we were castigated as anti-semitics, jew haters, and neo nazis in the run up to the presidential election. Fire up the furnaces, America needs more steel, not people who **** on the coke.
 
FredC said:
Incredible isn't it? None of the Murky Shofah Blowers have turned up to comment on the abominations perpetrated by their own kith and kindreds. It is not too long ago that we were castigated as anti-semitics, jew haters, and neo nazis in the run up to the presidential election. Fire up the furnaces, America needs more steel, not people who **** on the coke.
Incredible isn't it. I would have thought that Lufty Weissmann might have mentioned a comment or two, along with Velo Ghoulstadt, and perhaps Fixit Mossad from Switzerland. The lack of comments from them, just condemns and condones the insensitive attitude they have. I'm alright Jackob. I'm on my ladder.
 
I noticed that too.
The right wingers have winged their way off this entire forum.
They had a lot to say before the election though.

As regards SOI - they cannot defend the actions of the Israeli's.

By the way, I am digging up some stuff which will blow the lid on that lot.
All those jibs about anti-semiticsm will pale in to insignificance - with what I have uncovered.
I've got to check the source before publishing, but if you thought our distrust
was merely anti-semiticsm, wait until you read what that lot really think of us, Gentiles (Christians/Muslims).
It is really appalling what they actually do think of us.
Will publish in a day or two.
 
limerickman said:
I noticed that too.
The right wingers have winged their way off this entire forum.
They had a lot to say before the election though.
As regards SOI - they cannot defend the actions of the Israeli's.
Perhaps they've never heard of Palestine, or more to the point they totally ignore the name. To me, this sits in with the shofah blowers in Merkia, as is their want. If this thread continues I shall republish the the shofah blowing draft dodgers from the USA who escaped from Vietnam were picking oranges, and hated every minute. The other young Jews from all over Europe just got stuck in, and saw it as an adventure. Strangely, they hated the Merkins for not joining in. Selfish twats.
 
So, what do we conclude?
Basically what we need is a fair, balanced means of defending human rights everywhere. For every violation and outrage in Israel there are similar violations being carried out in Islamic countries too. For example, the Saudi schoolgirls who were burned to death since they weren't allowed to escape from a school fire without covering their heads. What about women who are denied education in Islamic countries where they're treated like chattel?
I think we need international laws that are enforced worldwide.
Plus, the BBC doesn't mention many Jews had to flee France due to Islamic militants and these same militants recently assassinated a Dutch producer for using free speech.


FredC said:
Incredible isn't it. I would have thought that Lufty Weissmann might have mentioned a comment or two, along with Velo Ghoulstadt, and perhaps Fixit Mossad from Switzerland. The lack of comments from them, just condemns and condones the insensitive attitude they have. I'm alright Jackob. I'm on my ladder.
 
Carrera said:
So, what do we conclude?
Basically what we need is a fair, balanced means of defending human rights everywhere. For every violation and outrage in Israel there are similar violations being carried out in Islamic countries too. For example, the Saudi schoolgirls who were burned to death since they weren't allowed to escape from a school fire without covering their heads. What about women who are denied education in Islamic countries where they're treated like chattel?
I think we need international laws that are enforced worldwide.
Plus, the BBC doesn't mention many Jews had to flee France due to Islamic militants and these same militants recently assassinated a Dutch producer for using free speech.

The obverse of this is that the Iraqi body count has not be verified.
The Lancet estimated that 100,000 Iraqi have died since March 2003 (the start of the war),
Bliar was asked in parliament about this today and he refused to set up an official enquiry.

Arab blood - Jewish blood : there has to be some equivalence.
I think international laws - such as the geneva convention are already there.
But when you have the likes of the USA refusing to join the world court,
this gives the other side every excuse.
 
This is precisely the problem. The U.S. has allowed its judgement to become baised and has confused the whole issue of human rights. George Bush has caused huge damage to human rights legislation, which will encourage other countries to carry out pre-emptive strikes or treat prisoners of war badly. Bush has even damaged human rights in his own country and opened his own troops up to the risk of POW abuse.
So, we clearly need an international human rights police force that can enforce laws - using economic sanctions against governments that act illegally. That should apply to European countries and the U.S. as well.
I do think we need to be careful about Israel, though. They aren't the only Middle Eastern nation to abuse human rights.


limerickman said:
The obverse of this is that the Iraqi body count has not be verified.
The Lancet estimated that 100,000 Iraqi have died since March 2003 (the start of the war),
Bliar was asked in parliament about this today and he refused to set up an official enquiry.

Arab blood - Jewish blood : there has to be some equivalence.
I think international laws - such as the geneva convention are already there.
But when you have the likes of the USA refusing to join the world court,
this gives the other side every excuse.
 
limerickman said:
I noticed that too.
The right wingers have winged their way off this entire forum.
They had a lot to say before the election though.
Yes, we did...Our job was to counter the whale **** that was spewing from the left on this and other forums in order to thrwart the traitor "kerry's" election bid...Guess what? WE WON!

By the way, I am digging up some stuff which will blow the lid on that lot.
All those jibs about anti-semiticsm will pale in to insignificance - with what I have uncovered.
I've got to check the source before publishing, but if you thought our distrust
was merely anti-semiticsm, wait until you read what that lot really think of us, Gentiles (Christians/Muslims).
It is really appalling what they actually do think of us.
Will publish in a day or two.
I can't wait..I'm sure it will be the product of an "accomplished reporter" :rolleyes:
 
It's odd, though, that Bush seems a touch quieter of late. I'm not sure whether he might just have realised the problems he's going to be faced with in the Middle East as a result of the Iraq war. I mean, how's he going to get out of that mess? So many ethnic groups involved and the security situation hardly ideal.
The people who voted for George Bush will eventually have to come to terms with one or two unpleaant realities. There will be a huge tax bill to pay and big hole left in the U.S. budget. The dollar is falling rapidly under Bush as well which is causing some alarm. Hardly the kind of stability seen when Clinton was in power.
It's hard to say what will happen in the near future. There is a remote possiblilty Bush may have learned something from this experience and may be a touch more wary in future. I wouldn't hold my breath, though. But it may be that the cost of the war to American taxpayers might be what finally proves to be his undoing.


zapper said:
Yes, we did...Our job was to counter the whale **** that was spewing from the left on this and other forums in order to thrwart the traitor "kerry's" election bid...Guess what? WE WON!

I can't wait..I'm sure it will be the product of an "accomplished reporter" :rolleyes:
 
FredC said:
Incredible isn't it? None of the Murky Shofah Blowers have turned up to comment on the abominations perpetrated by their own kith and kindreds. It is not too long ago that we were castigated as anti-semitics, jew haters, and neo nazis in the run up to the presidential election. Fire up the furnaces, America needs more steel, not people who **** on the coke.
Fred, what you fail to admit is that you are guilty of what you assert. Even this post of yours wreaks of anti-Semitism. If an innocent 13 year old girl was brutally murdered, I don't think you find anyone on this forum who would be jumping for joy. matter of fact, it saddens us all! Our children are our future and for the most part they are innocent casualties. But....I don't see you and your self proclaimed "Jew haters" expressing the same disgust when an innocent 4 year old Israeli girl gets blown to bits! Of course no one condones this Abhorrent behavior... Fred wake up...open your eyes and try to be realistic. i.e. take your head out of lims butt and think for yourself.:D
 
zapper said:
Yes, we did...Our job was to counter the whale **** that was spewing from the left on this and other forums in order to thrwart the traitor "kerry's" election bid...Guess what? WE WON!

I can't wait..I'm sure it will be the product of an "accomplished reporter" :rolleyes:

I knew my post would draw a reaction from your side of the house.
 
Carrera said:
This is precisely the problem. The U.S. has allowed its judgement to become baised and has confused the whole issue of human rights. George Bush has caused huge damage to human rights legislation, which will encourage other countries to carry out pre-emptive strikes or treat prisoners of war badly. Bush has even damaged human rights in his own country and opened his own troops up to the risk of POW abuse.
Wrongo porche, W didn't perform a vulcan mind meld and make those few commit a couple mistakes while dealing with a few prisoners... If one wants to cast blame for future pow abuse I would blame it on the media. Don't broadcast the pics, then no one sees them... Its sure is grand that this F%&^ up media wasn't around during WWII...
 
Carrera said:
This is precisely the problem. The U.S. has allowed its judgement to become baised and has confused the whole issue of human rights. George Bush has caused huge damage to human rights legislation, which will encourage other countries to carry out pre-emptive strikes or treat prisoners of war badly. Bush has even damaged human rights in his own country and opened his own troops up to the risk of POW abuse.
So, we clearly need an international human rights police force that can enforce laws - using economic sanctions against governments that act illegally. That should apply to European countries and the U.S. as well.
I do think we need to be careful about Israel, though. They aren't the only Middle Eastern nation to abuse human rights.

But that's where the dichotomy is.

We listen to repeated waffle from the Merkins and the Jews/Israeli's about being democrats.
They lie.

At least the other Middle Eastern countries do not try to insult our intelligence
by trying to create the same false impression, by claiming to be democrats.
One is as bad as the other.
 
I don't know a great deal about Israel but probably have some sympathy for their position, although I do concede they could help matters somewhat by treating the Palestinians with more dignity.
Still, you have to remember that a state of Israel was needed after the hollocaust tragedy and the persecution against Jewish communities in Europe. So far as I can gather, Israel has deep historical ties to the land they now inhabit (even during Roman times) so Arab countries don't have the right to deny this reality. Israel is very small while Arab countries occupy the bulk of the Middle East.
It's true that Israel's army is guilty of vast human rights abuses but such abuses also take place in Arab states, Afghanistan being one such case under the Taliban. The BBC forgets that Israel doesn't deny women the right to have an education or stone women for adultery (as the Jews used to do in Roman times ironically). Yet, in Afghanistan women were flogged in public simply for allowing their face to be seen, prior to the U.S. invasion.


limerickman said:
But that's where the dichotomy is.

We listen to repeated waffle from the Merkins and the Jews/Israeli's about being democrats.
They lie.

At least the other Middle Eastern countries do not try to insult our intelligence
by trying to create the same false impression, by claiming to be democrats.
One is as bad as the other.
 
Carrera said:
I don't know a great deal about Israel but probably have some sympathy for their position, although I do concede they could help matters somewhat by treating the Palestinians with more dignity.
Still, you have to remember that a state of Israel was needed after the hollocaust tragedy and the persecution against Jewish communities in Europe. So far as I can gather, Israel has deep historical ties to the land they now inhabit (even during Roman times) so Arab countries don't have the right to deny this reality. Israel is very small while Arab countries occupy the bulk of the Middle East.
It's true that Israel's army is guilty of vast human rights abuses but such abuses also take place in Arab states, Afghanistan being one such case under the Taliban. The BBC forgets that Israel doesn't deny women the right to have an education or stone women for adultery (as the Jews used to do in Roman times ironically). Yet, in Afghanistan women were flogged in public simply for allowing their face to be seen, prior to the U.S. invasion.
With the greatest respect to you, you haven't got a feckin clue what you are writing about. No use, don't make yourself to be a fool, when you are clearly not.
 
limerickman said:
But that's where the dichotomy is.

We listen to repeated waffle from the Merkins and the Jews/Israeli's about being democrats.
They lie.

At least the other Middle Eastern countries do not try to insult our intelligence
by trying to create the same false impression, by claiming to be democrats.
One is as bad as the other.
I noted yesterday that Sharon has taken to calling for a coalition government in the Knesset by taking on Shimon Peres (opposition) as second in command. This is supposedly an attempt to re-instate the Road Map. I wonder what prompted that? Although it is a starting point it only relates to 10 settlements in Gaza, and down to the Ashkelon area.
I would have thought that if something positive was to be achieved, then the West Bank should have been the starting point. Sharon declared that he has no intention of dismantling settlements on the West Bank, and never metioned the new wall, and the theft of property and land therein.
There was a very good documentary over the Hols on King Herod, King of the Jews. He built The Temple Mount for both Jews and Gentiles to use the facilities, so says a prominent Jewish scholar and historian.
If you want to see the news in Palestine google in The Jerusalem Post.
 
Squirmy Irish said:
Life in Israel. Jew get on bus. Philistine get on bus. Bus go boom. But you wankers can always defend the philistine actions. An Oiyrish man always enjoys a good bombing. Is it just coincidence that you are going to "blow" the lid on that lot?

That's right - because the Philistine actions are defendable.

Do I enjoy a good bomb ?