Lighter Dura Ace Octalink BB?



question-<< Is there an alternative (lighter) to DuraAce for an Octalink BB?
>><BR><BR>


Answer-no, shimano never licensed the design so shimano is the only
manufacturer and they are abandoning it.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
Qui si parla Campagnolo said:
question-<< Is there an alternative (lighter) to DuraAce for an Octalink BB?
>><BR><BR>


Answer-no, shimano never licensed the design so shimano is the only
manufacturer and they are abandoning it.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

No, FSA makes lighter Octalink compatable cranks. http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=21&pid=43
 
Weisse Luft wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo Wrote:
>
>>question-<< Is there an alternative (lighter) to DuraAce for an Octalink
>>BB?
>>
>>>><BR><BR>

>>
>>Answer-no, shimano never licensed the design so shimano is the only
>>manufacturer and they are abandoning it.
>>
>>Peter Chisholm
>>Vecchio's Bicicletteria
>>1833 Pearl St.
>>Boulder, CO, 80302
>>(303)440-3535
>>http://www.vecchios.com
>>"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

>
>
> No, FSA makes lighter Octalink compatable cranks.
> http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=21&pid=43
>
>


op said bb... shimano haven't licenced the bb.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Is there an alternative (lighter) to DuraAce for an Octalink BB?
>


no. and you wouldn't want to use one if it existed. the dura-ace bb is
a masterpiece of minimalism - it's not just hollow, but the inside is
machined so it's inner bore is even larger diameter than the screw holes
on the ends! there is absolutely no excess material whatsoever. the
only way to make the bb lighter would be to use an exotic material like
titanium, but to achieve the same stiffness & strength, as ti is
inferior to steel in both respects, the spindle would have to be thicker
in areas the current design would not allow.

bottom line, dura-ace is the lightest you're going to get in this
application.
 
"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> question-<< Is there an alternative (lighter) to DuraAce for an Octalink
> BB?
>>><BR><BR>

>
> Answer-no, shimano never licensed the design so shimano is the only
> manufacturer and they are abandoning it.
>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"


Although I respect your knowledge of may bicycle products and information, I
wonder where you get this information.

The ISIS bb is generally considered inferior with respect to bearing life
and longevity compared to the Ultegra Octalink. There are numerous thread
among many biking groups complaining about the limited life of the bearing
in the ISIS. The design predicates a smaller and more fragile bearing, which
has not stood up to the demands of mountain biking, and has a predictable
earlier failure than the Octalink .For longevity, lightness and durability,
the consensus in most groups is that the Ultegra Octalink is the superior
product.

I am unaware of any announcement by Shimano, other than your postings, that
the Octalink is being abandoned. The newer BB, as seen in the new Dura-ace,
is being considered as a standard by many, including FSA. But even FSA is
starting to abandon the standard ISIS as seen in there new ISIS style
bracket that incorporates a larger bearing and outer rings.
 
M? G Siegel writes:

>>> Is there an alternative (lighter) to DuraAce for an Octalink BB?


>> Answer-no, Shimano never licensed the design so Shimano is the only
>> manufacturer and they are abandoning it.


> Although I respect your knowledge of may bicycle products and
> information, I wonder where you get this information.


> The ISIS BB is generally considered inferior with respect to bearing
> life and longevity compared to the Ultegra Octalink. There are
> numerous thread among many biking groups complaining about the
> limited life of the bearing in the ISIS. The design predicates a
> smaller and more fragile bearing, which has not stood up to the
> demands of mountain biking, and has a predictable earlier failure
> than the Octalink .For longevity, lightness and durability, the
> consensus in most groups is that the Ultegra Octalink is the
> superior product.


> I am unaware of any announcement by Shimano, other than your
> postings, that the Octalink is being abandoned. The newer BB, as
> seen in the new Dura-ace, is being considered as a standard by many,
> including FSA. But even FSA is starting to abandon the standard ISIS
> as seen in there new ISIS style bracket that incorporates a larger
> bearing and outer rings.


What is less apparent is that Shimano is dropping this otherwise great
design because it has feet of clay for only some riders. The
octa-spline fails for riders who coast "goofy footed" as we have heard
reported here on various occasions. This should be an obvious failing
for engineers who design such high load applications, but it wasn't.

I think it is unfortunate that for the number of riders who have this
problem to scrap an otherwise elegant design. It's like "no more
peanuts" on air travel because a few folks have problems with them. I
miss Mr. Peanut.

http://www.planters.com/

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Luft-<< No, FSA makes lighter Octalink compatable cranks. >><BR><BR>

The question was about bottom brackets, not cranks. For bottom brackets,
shimano manufactured only.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
MGS-<< I am unaware of any announcement by Shimano, other than your postings,
that
the Octalink is being abandoned. The newer BB, as seen in the new Dura-ace,
is being considered as a standard by many, including FSA. >><BR><BR>

I say, not sure what you are talking about. The OP asked if there were other
than shimano makers of Octalink, there is not(ISIS is another question).

As for shimano abandoning Octalink, I'd say in 2006, there will be no more BBs
or cranks offered by shimano that are Octalink. Looks like abandonment to me.
As for ISIS, the 'outside of BB' cup bearings are a great idea to solve the
big spindle, small bearing problem BUT another solution is also.....drum roll
please-square taper.

The BB type now offered by shimano, FSA and others are another marketing
primarily product that once again, answers no question, solves no problem. Like
ohhh so much in modern bicycles.

Campagnolo still shows they can make reliable, light, sericeable, fuctional BBs
that are that old old design of square taper.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> MGS-<< I am unaware of any announcement by Shimano, other than your

postings,
> that
> the Octalink is being abandoned. The newer BB, as seen in the new

Dura-ace,
> is being considered as a standard by many, including FSA. >><BR><BR>
>
> I say, not sure what you are talking about. The OP asked if there were

other
> than shimano makers of Octalink, there is not(ISIS is another question).
>
> As for shimano abandoning Octalink, I'd say in 2006, there will be no more

BBs
> or cranks offered by shimano that are Octalink. Looks like abandonment to

me.

Not to mention that even LX cranks are going to be 2-piece soon. 105 can't
be that far behind.

Phil
 
B asks-<< Peter,
Do you prefer Campagnolo? >><BR><BR>

I say, I prefer manufacturers that design and make things that work, are
servicable. I don't like makers that change things just cuz they can to reward
their marketing department and hurt the people trying to ride their bicycles.

I'll ask again, what does spline, either ISIS or Octalink do to help the
BB/crank design now found on Campagnolo?

What question does it answer, what problem does it solve?



Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
The bottom bracket, as we know it today, has gone through 2 major industry wide changes, namely from cottered cranks with open bearings to cotterless with sealed bearings. We all survived just fine with cottered cranks but cotterless was easier to service. Loose bearings were just fine, it only took two tools to service...well, once you got the cranks off which took another tool. Well, that is if someone didn't strip the dust cover threads in the crank.

Fast forward to today's Shimano design. If you bought aftermarket, the cranks come with the BB tools. You simply thread the cups into the frame, insert the right side crank and then slap on the left crank. Tighten the nut to preload bearings and then tighten the pinch bolts on the left crank. Easiest BB/crank setup ever. Its a winner.
 
"Weisse Luft" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> The bottom bracket, as we know it today, has gone through 2 major
> industry wide changes, namely from cottered cranks with open bearings
> to cotterless with sealed bearings. We all survived just fine with
> cottered cranks but cotterless was easier to service. Loose bearings
> were just fine, it only took two tools to service...well, once you got
> the cranks off which took another tool. Well, that is if someone
> didn't strip the dust cover threads in the crank.
>
> Fast forward to today's Shimano design. If you bought aftermarket, the
> cranks come with the BB tools. You simply thread the cups into the
> frame, insert the right side crank and then slap on the left crank.
> Tighten the nut to preload bearings and then tighten the pinch bolts on
> the left crank. Easiest BB/crank setup ever. Its a winner.
>

Ah, but don't forget the most important part - marketing the superior
*stiffness* of these new design. THAT will cause thousands of "racer-types"
to get out and buy these new bb and cranks. Hey, my bb/crank is stiffer than
yours!....
 
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:45:58 +1100, Weisse Luft
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>The bottom bracket, as we know it today, has gone through 2 major
>industry wide changes, namely from cottered cranks with open bearings
>to cotterless with sealed bearings. We all survived just fine with
>cottered cranks but cotterless was easier to service. Loose bearings
>were just fine, it only took two tools to service...well, once you got
>the cranks off which took another tool. Well, that is if someone
>didn't strip the dust cover threads in the crank.
>
>Fast forward to today's Shimano design. If you bought aftermarket, the
>cranks come with the BB tools. You simply thread the cups into the
>frame, insert the right side crank and then slap on the left crank.
>Tighten the nut to preload bearings and then tighten the pinch bolts on
>the left crank. Easiest BB/crank setup ever. Its a winner.


Hi, what tools are supposed to come with a Shmano BB, if bought
aftermarket?
I don't recall getting any tools with my DA 9-speed triple BB, should
I have?


Life is Good!
Jeff
 
bfd wrote:
> "Weisse Luft" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
>
>>The bottom bracket, as we know it today, has gone through 2 major
>>industry wide changes, namely from cottered cranks with open bearings
>>to cotterless with sealed bearings. We all survived just fine with
>>cottered cranks but cotterless was easier to service. Loose bearings
>>were just fine, it only took two tools to service...well, once you got
>>the cranks off which took another tool. Well, that is if someone
>>didn't strip the dust cover threads in the crank.
>>
>>Fast forward to today's Shimano design. If you bought aftermarket, the
>>cranks come with the BB tools. You simply thread the cups into the
>>frame, insert the right side crank and then slap on the left crank.
>>Tighten the nut to preload bearings and then tighten the pinch bolts on
>>the left crank. Easiest BB/crank setup ever. Its a winner.
>>

>
> Ah, but don't forget the most important part - marketing the superior
> *stiffness* of these new design. THAT will cause thousands of "racer-types"
> to get out and buy these new bb and cranks. Hey, my bb/crank is stiffer than
> yours!....


with my 200 lbs, the improved stiffness is /definitely/ noticable.
 
Peter Chisholm writes:

>> Do you prefer Campagnolo?


> I say, I prefer manufacturers that design and make things that work,
> are serviceable. I don't like makers that change things just
> because they can to reward their marketing department and hurt the
> people trying to ride their bicycles.


> I'll ask again, what does spline, either ISIS or Octalink do to help
> the BB/crank design now found on Campagnolo? What question does it
> answer, what problem does it solve?


Having been around these square taper BB spindles for a while, you
must have seen failures and heard the never ending tales of woe from
people who didn't properly tighten the cranks on the spindle. Ball
races on these spindles are overloaded and fail by spalling. I have a
great collection of them. Beyond that, the square taper is about the
size of the last joint of your little finger... and people push on
cranks with more than their full weight about four inches outboard
from the attachment and with a nearly seven inch lever. The spindles
break just inside the press fit (I have had that experience). Cranks
break at the knuckle as we have seen from the archive of broken
cranks. Assembly and disassembly takes special tools.

The failure and assembly problems are being addressed by the splined
assemblies offered. How well they achieve their goal is yet to be
seen. As the Shimano Octalink spline showed, this was not the
solution.

The threadless steertube also took a long time to get here.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Jeff Starr said:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:45:58 +1100, Weisse Luft
<[email protected]> wrote:

>\Hi, what tools are supposed to come with a Shmano BB, if bought
aftermarket?
I don't recall getting any tools with my DA 9-speed triple BB, should
I have?


Life is Good!
Jeff


Tools come with the NEW 7800 DA crank. The included tools are the wrench to install the BB cups and the left side nut wrench, a cheesy bit of plastic but since this nut only requires 1-2 pound-inches of torque, its more than serviceable in the glass-filled polyamide.

My old 7701 cranks came with a wrench for the extractor type caps. The other end of this wrench was for the crank fixing nuts.
 
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> I'll ask again, what does spline, either ISIS or Octalink do
> to help the BB/crank design now found on Campagnolo?
>
> What question does it answer, what problem does it solve?


Taper sizes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

With a tapered spindle, the chainline can vary with repeated
installations of the right crank.

Tapered spindles aren't foolproof (they offer the opportunity
to destroy the crank by repeatedly tightening the bolt).

I've used tapered spindles for years with no failures.
Chalo Colina says they aren't durable enough for his
purposes (see http://tinyurl.com/4nlop ) and I believe him.
Pics of failed tapered parts can be seen at
http://pardo.net/pardo/bike/pic/fail/FAIL-001.html

I don't know enough about the various splined alternatives
to comment on how durable they are. But there's evidence
that tapered parts fail in some applications and could
stand to be improved on.

Tom Ace
 
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:54:58 +1100, Weisse Luft
<[email protected]> wrote:

>


>
>Tools come with the NEW 7800 DA crank. The included tools are the
>wrench to install the BB cups and the left side nut wrench, a cheesy
>bit of plastic but since this nut only requires 1-2 pound-inches of
>torque, its more than serviceable in the glass-filled polyamide.


>
>My old 7701 cranks came with a wrench for the extractor type caps. The
>other end of this wrench was for the crank fixing nuts.


Hi, yes I got that wrench with my 7703 crankset.
Thanks for the info.

Life is Good!
Jeff
 

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