lightning



Z

Zog The Undeniable

Guest
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> Living in Arizona in the summer can be quite hazardous at times with
> lightning. Was under the impression that the rubber tires protected you,
> but found out that it doesn't. The reason a car protects you, is because
> the lightning goes around you because you are sitting in a cage, but not
> true on a bike. You're suppose to find shelter, but many times, I'm out
> where I'm the tallest thing out there, which really feels spooky when their
> is lightning. I guess you could lay down on the ground, but that gets old
> if it starts raining, so I guess you just take your chances, and say a
> prayer.
>
>

If it's already raining, you're more likely to survive a strike. A
dripping wet body allows more of the current to flow round the outside.
It's still going to make you jump off your bike though!

The best advice is to head for a valley or lie in a ditch, well away
from the bike. Lightning likes pointy metal things.
 
Z

Zog The Undeniable

Guest
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> Living in Arizona in the summer can be quite hazardous at times with
> lightning. Was under the impression that the rubber tires protected you,
> but found out that it doesn't. The reason a car protects you, is because
> the lightning goes around you because you are sitting in a cage, but not
> true on a bike. You're suppose to find shelter, but many times, I'm out
> where I'm the tallest thing out there, which really feels spooky when their
> is lightning. I guess you could lay down on the ground, but that gets old
> if it starts raining, so I guess you just take your chances, and say a
> prayer.
>
>

Cars are safe because of the skin effect (a car isn't actually a Faraday
cage; these only protect you from static electricity, not anything with
a current). Weirdly, you can even touch the inside of the car body
during a strike and not feel anything.

Convertible cars are not safe in a thunderstorm.
 
B

bdbafh

Guest
On Jul 11, 8:39 am, Ron Hardin <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've always wondered whether it's best to ride on the side of the road
> with the power lines, or the other side.
>
> If the inductance is low enough, the power lines are protectors. If not,
> it may be they just add an antenna to you.
>
> Nobody seems to know which it is. All you get is advice from womanish
> men to stay indoors when there's thunderstorms. (If they weren't
> womanish, they'd know it's an interesting physics problem.)
>
> The Strike Alert lightning detector is amusing to have. It lets you know
> how much lightning is missing you by, as well as the presence of passing
> electric fences and arcing power poles. (At home, prop it in a window and
> listen to the lightning in the area.) I don't know that it's of any actual
> use, but just a guy-curiosity thing.
>
> --
> Ron Hardin
> [email protected]
>
> On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070711...phones_dc_2;_ylt=AraiZs8A477.WvmubDIJFbgE1vAI

Burned jogger shows lightning, headphones don't mix

Doctors at Vancouver General Hospital in Canada said a 37-year-old
jogger wearing an iPod was burned on his chest, neck and face after
the man and a nearby tree were struck by lightning in 2005. The burns
traced the path of the earphones, they said.

The patient's eardrums were ruptured and the tiny bones in his middle
ears were dislocated, the doctors wrote in a letter to the New England
Journal of Medicine.
 
On Jul 11, 7:10 am, Ron Hardin <[email protected]> wrote:

> At 6 miles you can hear the thunder, I guess, so you could count lightning/thunder
> seconds and divide by 5. Or beep/thunder seconds, for that matter. The beep happens
> when the lightning does.
>
> I don't know how it works, but it seems tolerably accurate. You'd like it to notice
> the phases of the normal modes extending up to the ionosphere, but I doubt it's that.
> Probably some broadband thing and signal strength.


RF noise pulse, and a distance guess based on
attenuation, most likely
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_detector
The RF noise is why it may be thrown off by a very
close gas engine.

The chances of being hit by lightning even if you
do something stupid like cycle through an electrical
storm are relatively small. However, the penalty
is severe, and you do increase the risk greatly by
doing stupid things.

In Arizona, summer thunderstorms are relatively
predictable, in the sense that they generally happen
in the afternoon and sometimes evening. So you can
avoid doing stupid things by taking simple precautions
like riding in the morning if you're going to be in
areas without shelter. Climbers and hikers are well
aware of this and the OP could be if he actually
thought about it.

Ben
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> Living in Arizona in the summer can be quite hazardous at times with
>> lightning. Was under the impression that the rubber tires protected you,
>> but found out that it doesn't. The reason a car protects you, is because
>> the lightning goes around you because you are sitting in a cage, but not
>> true on a bike. You're suppose to find shelter, but many times, I'm out
>> where I'm the tallest thing out there, which really feels spooky when
>> their
>> is lightning. I guess you could lay down on the ground, but that gets
>> old
>> if it starts raining, so I guess you just take your chances, and say a
>> prayer.
>>
>>

> Cars are safe because of the skin effect (a car isn't actually a Faraday
> cage; these only protect you from static electricity, not anything with
> a current). Weirdly, you can even touch the inside of the car body
> during a strike and not feel anything.
>
> Convertible cars are not safe in a thunderstorm.


If it is an English car with vintage Lucas electronics you do not want
to be out in the rain, anyhow. Not to mention the sieve like quality of
the top. :(

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
Callistus Valerius wrote:
> Living in Arizona in the summer can be quite hazardous at times with
> lightning. Was under the impression that the rubber tires protected you,
> but found out that it doesn't. The reason a car protects you, is because
> the lightning goes around you because you are sitting in a cage, but not
> true on a bike. You're suppose to find shelter, but many times, I'm out
> where I'm the tallest thing out there, which really feels spooky when their
> is lightning. I guess you could lay down on the ground, but that gets old
> if it starts raining, so I guess you just take your chances, and say a
> prayer.


The last lightning storm I rode in, I was the only recumbent rider in
the group - surrounded by lightning rods! ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
C

Callistus Valerius

Guest
> In Arizona, summer thunderstorms are relatively
> predictable, in the sense that they generally happen
> in the afternoon and sometimes evening. So you can
> avoid doing stupid things by taking simple precautions
> like riding in the morning if you're going to be in
> areas without shelter. Climbers and hikers are well
> aware of this and the OP could be if he actually
> thought about it.
>
> Ben

========
They call it the monsoons, and you're right. But the other day I was riding
at 4 am and got in into a big electrical storm. Also these storms move fast
so you can get caught anytime, but more likely after 5pm. I use to do
hiking quite a bit, and I think that is a lot more dangerous as the
lightning just pounds you in the mountains. Also the sound is magnified
which doesn't help the situation. But golfers don't seem to be as aware, as
usually they are the ones struck.
 
On Jul 11, 7:51 pm, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> If it is an English car with vintage Lucas electronics you do not want
> to be out in the rain, anyhow. Not to mention the sieve like quality of
> the top. :(


I hope there wasn't such a car nearby when you typed that. If there
was, it won't start in the morning!

- Frank Krygowski
 
Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> Living in Arizona in the summer can be quite hazardous at times with
>> lightning. Was under the impression that the rubber tires protected you,
>> but found out that it doesn't. The reason a car protects you, is because
>> the lightning goes around you because you are sitting in a cage, but not
>> true on a bike. You're suppose to find shelter, but many times, I'm out
>> where I'm the tallest thing out there, which really feels spooky when
>> their
>> is lightning. I guess you could lay down on the ground, but that gets
>> old
>> if it starts raining, so I guess you just take your chances, and say a
>> prayer.
>>
>>

>
> Prayer has no known deterrent effect against lightning or anything else
> for that matter.
>
> Dorfus

Only if you pray to Zeus he's the one in charge of lighting,christian
gods are just feel good gods.
 
W

wizardB

Guest
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
>
>> Prayer has no known deterrent effect against lightning or anything
>> else for that matter.

>
> Anyone with your name would feel that way.
>
>

Pray only to Zeus about lighting no use praying to Christian or Muslim
goods they're just feel good gods with fanatic followers.
 
D

Dorfus Dippintush

Guest
Ron Hardin wrote:
> I've always wondered whether it's best to ride on the side of the road
> with the power lines, or the other side.
>
> If the inductance is low enough, the power lines are protectors. If not,
> it may be they just add an antenna to you.
>
> Nobody seems to know which it is. All you get is advice from womanish
> men to stay indoors when there's thunderstorms. (If they weren't
> womanish, they'd know it's an interesting physics problem.)
>
> The Strike Alert lightning detector is amusing to have. It lets you know
> how much lightning is missing you by, as well as the presence of passing
> electric fences and arcing power poles. (At home, prop it in a window and
> listen to the lightning in the area.) I don't know that it's of any actual
> use, but just a guy-curiosity thing.
>


The safest place is under large power lines. you are protected in a 30
degree zone under the power line. The safest place is in a switchyard.

Dorfus
 
D

Dorfus Dippintush

Guest
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
>
>> Prayer has no known deterrent effect against lightning or anything
>> else for that matter.

>
> Anyone with your name would feel that way.
>
>


I think you have a silly name but at least I have the decency not to
make fun of it.

Dorfus
 
D

Dorfus Dippintush

Guest
Zog The Undeniable wrote:
> Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> Living in Arizona in the summer can be quite hazardous at times with
>> lightning. Was under the impression that the rubber tires protected you,
>> but found out that it doesn't. The reason a car protects you, is because
>> the lightning goes around you because you are sitting in a cage, but not
>> true on a bike. You're suppose to find shelter, but many times, I'm out
>> where I'm the tallest thing out there, which really feels spooky when
>> their
>> is lightning. I guess you could lay down on the ground, but that gets
>> old
>> if it starts raining, so I guess you just take your chances, and say a
>> prayer.
>>
>>

> If it's already raining, you're more likely to survive a strike. A
> dripping wet body allows more of the current to flow round the outside.
> It's still going to make you jump off your bike though!
>


Pure water is an insulator, if the sweat has washed off you already then
the water will not conduct much electricity at all.

Dorfus

> The best advice is to head for a valley or lie in a ditch, well away
> from the bike. Lightning likes pointy metal things.
 
R

Ron Hardin

Guest
Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
>
> Ron Hardin wrote:
> > I've always wondered whether it's best to ride on the side of the road
> > with the power lines, or the other side.
> >
> > If the inductance is low enough, the power lines are protectors. If not,
> > it may be they just add an antenna to you.
> >
> > Nobody seems to know which it is. All you get is advice from womanish
> > men to stay indoors when there's thunderstorms. (If they weren't
> > womanish, they'd know it's an interesting physics problem.)
> >
> > The Strike Alert lightning detector is amusing to have. It lets you know
> > how much lightning is missing you by, as well as the presence of passing
> > electric fences and arcing power poles. (At home, prop it in a window and
> > listen to the lightning in the area.) I don't know that it's of any actual
> > use, but just a guy-curiosity thing.
> >

>
> The safest place is under large power lines. you are protected in a 30
> degree zone under the power line. The safest place is in a switchyard.
>
> Dorfus


It depends on the inductance. The sudden current surge may produce a nice
high voltage area on the line, leaving it looking for the best way to earth
and finding it's you under the line elsewhere. In which case the line has
served as an antenna for you.

--
Ron Hardin
[email protected]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
 
C

Callistus Valerius

Guest
>
> Dear Cal,
>
> Look at the bigger picture:
>
>

https://thunderstorm.vaisala.com/tux/jsp/explorer/explorer.jsp;jsessionid=70
302096231136590952293
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

---------
very interesting. If I remember right I think Florida, Colorado, and
Arizona have the most lightning. Did some further reading on the subject,
and it seems motorcyclists are in the same danger as cyclists, and they're
about at all times of the day. Cyclists usually give it up by 12 noon
because of the huge heat here. The only advantage of a motorcycle is that
they can out run the storm, while a cyclist is stuck, until the storm passes
over him, which usually takes about an hour.
 
R

RBrickston

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
> >
> > Ron Hardin wrote:
> > > I've always wondered whether it's best to ride on the side of the road
> > > with the power lines, or the other side.
> > >
> > > If the inductance is low enough, the power lines are protectors. If not,
> > > it may be they just add an antenna to you.
> > >
> > > Nobody seems to know which it is. All you get is advice from womanish
> > > men to stay indoors when there's thunderstorms. (If they weren't
> > > womanish, they'd know it's an interesting physics problem.)
> > >
> > > The Strike Alert lightning detector is amusing to have. It lets you know
> > > how much lightning is missing you by, as well as the presence of passing
> > > electric fences and arcing power poles. (At home, prop it in a window and
> > > listen to the lightning in the area.) I don't know that it's of any actual
> > > use, but just a guy-curiosity thing.
> > >

> >
> > The safest place is under large power lines. you are protected in a 30
> > degree zone under the power line. The safest place is in a switchyard.
> >
> > Dorfus

>
> It depends on the inductance. The sudden current surge may produce a nice
> high voltage area on the line, leaving it looking for the best way to earth
> and finding it's you under the line elsewhere. In which case the line has
> served as an antenna for you.
>
>

Wouldn't the lightning go to the tower itself before the line or a
cyclist?
 
D

Doug Smith W9WI

Guest
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:02:25 +0000, RBrickston wrote:
> Wouldn't the lightning go to the tower itself before the line or a
> cyclist?


Division of current is not absolute. If you offer ten million volts two
paths - one through a resistance of one ohm, and the other through a
resistance of one million ohms - most of the current, ten million amps,
will flow through the lower resistance. But some of the current - ten
amperes - will flow through the higher resistance path.

Ten amps is way more than enough to stop a human heart and do other
serious damage.

I would be VERY leery of considering a high-voltage tower as protection
against a lightning strike.

(maybe worse: the high currents that would be induced in the sensor wire
would probably fry your bike computer.)
 
D

dvt

Guest
Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
> The safest place is under large power lines. you are protected in a 30
> degree zone under the power line. The safest place is in a switchyard.


From http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/decision_tree_people.html:

"*Unsafe* places are near metal or water; under trees; on hills; near
electrical/electronics equipment."

If lightning strikes a tree/tower/whatever near you, the potential of
the earth at the base of the tower rises. The potential decreases as you
get further away from the base. So if you have two feet on the ground,
and one foot is farther from the tower's base than the other foot, you
have a potential difference between your feet. Now electricity tries to
go through you (up one leg, down the other). That's a bad thing.

A reference describing the same thing I just tried to describe:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/lightning8.htm

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)
 
D

Dorfus Dippintush

Guest
dvt wrote:
> Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
>> The safest place is under large power lines. you are protected in a 30
>> degree zone under the power line. The safest place is in a switchyard.

>
> From http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/decision_tree_people.html:
>
> "*Unsafe* places are near metal or water; under trees; on hills; near
> electrical/electronics equipment."
>
> If lightning strikes a tree/tower/whatever near you, the potential of
> the earth at the base of the tower rises. The potential decreases as you
> get further away from the base. So if you have two feet on the ground,
> and one foot is farther from the tower's base than the other foot, you
> have a potential difference between your feet. Now electricity tries to
> go through you (up one leg, down the other). That's a bad thing.
>
> A reference describing the same thing I just tried to describe:
> http://science.howstuffworks.com/lightning8.htm
>


A switchyard has earthing conductors that run underground that reduce
such effects. That's why it's the safest place to be.

Dorfus
 
D

dvt

Guest
Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
> dvt wrote:
>> Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
>>> The safest place is under large power lines. you are protected in a
>>> 30 degree zone under the power line. The safest place is in a
>>> switchyard.

>>
>> From http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/decision_tree_people.html:
>>
>> "*Unsafe* places are near metal or water; under trees; on hills; near
>> electrical/electronics equipment."
>>
>> If lightning strikes a tree/tower/whatever near you, the potential of
>> the earth at the base of the tower rises. The potential decreases as
>> you get further away from the base. So if you have two feet on the
>> ground, and one foot is farther from the tower's base than the other
>> foot, you have a potential difference between your feet. Now
>> electricity tries to go through you (up one leg, down the other).
>> That's a bad thing.
>>
>> A reference describing the same thing I just tried to describe:
>> http://science.howstuffworks.com/lightning8.htm
>>

>
> A switchyard has earthing conductors that run underground that reduce
> such effects. That's why it's the safest place to be.


I can believe that a switchyard has a good grounding system. I don't
have first-hand experience, but it seems plausible. But that doesn't fix
your first sentence: "The safest place is under large power lines." I
think that's bad advice.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)
 

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