Lights: LED vrs. Halogen?



A

Artemisia

Guest
What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?

For some reason, I can't find LEDs on sale in France. Only halogens. I
have to get my lights through the UK which seems daft. Is there some
stupid protectionist law in place? I've been following the other
discussion on lights and think I may get that Cateye HL-EL500 so
highly spoken of, for the trike, in addition to / instead of the
dynamo.

Flyzipper uses a 5-LED cluster light by Cateye that I bought at Condor
a few years ago. It has a very long running power on its 5
rechargeable AA batteries, but seems to fade from maximum power when
the batteries are less than fresh (I haven't changed them since last
fall). I'm not overly enchanted with it for night-riding because it
creates a bobbing puddle of light in front of the bike that confuses
my balance, since my eyes follow the light and my bike follows my
eyes, boinky boinky right into the wall... But that might just be me.
And it should be less of a problem on a trike. Apart from that it
strikes me as _vastly_ superior to the halogens available on the
French market, which eat batteries at a most fearful rate and don't
seem any brighter or less boinkier.

EFR
Ile de France
 
I

Ian Smith

Guest
["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:51:23 -0700, Artemisia <[email protected]> wrote:
> What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?


There are halogens bulbs that are brighter than the brightest LED.

However, if you mean which bicycle lights are brighter, I think both
technologies are now similar brightness at similar powers. More
relevant might be which are most efficient.

You need to define the question better - do you want a separate
battery back, or self-contained lights? Size? Weight? Duration?

If you want brightness, halide are brighter than either, and give much
moire brightness per unit of electrical power. But maybe you don't
want to spend 200 quid on just the bulb...

regards, Ian SMith
--
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On 6 Sep, 07:51, Artemisia <[email protected]> wrote:
> What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?


Well, as discussed in the previous thread, when you say brighter, you
need to be clear about whether you mean throwing a beam a long way or
lighting an area brightly.

My understanding is as follows:

For ordinary lights, LEDs are the most efficient i.e. the batteries
will last longer or they use smaller batteries.

There is a limit to the brightness you can get from a single LED - the
Cateyes mentioned in the other thread (there are slightly newer/better
ones than the EL500) are pretty much state of the art in this respect.
[1]

For a good beam, you need the light source to be as small as possible.
LEDs aren't very good in this respect, so they are never going to be
great for throwing a really long beam. Again, the Cateyes seem to be
as good as it gets. [1] Halogen lights have a much smaller source, so
potentially give a much better beam, given the right optics.

Multi-LED lights can be very bright but they won't give a good beam
because the light source is spread out.

If you want something brighter (better beam) than a single LED light,
look at what MTB riders use at night. Their requirements are rather
different to road riders - they want extremely bright light but for
short periods of an hour or two. They get this with largeish
rechargeable batteries and halogen lights.

IMO, unless you ride very fast, one or maybe two Cateye-type single
LED lights are all you need for road riding.The only time this may not
be adequate is down steep fast hills where you may have to restrict
your speed a bit. I'm not really sure why you want the Cateye instead
of the dynamo, as users of modern dynamos seem to love them so much.
But the Cateye _may_ be brighter (I have no idea), so a combination of
the two might be ideal - dynamo as something that's always there,
Cateye for when conditions are difficult.

> I'm not overly enchanted with it for night-riding because it
> creates a bobbing puddle of light


The light shouldn't bob that much, are you sure it's clamped on
properly? Something that gives a beam should help here, because you
can aim it further in front of the bike, where any bobbing matters
less.

Rob

[1] I'm sure there are other LED lights with similar performance to
the Cateye, I'm just saying you won't find an LED light that's
massively better.
 
P

Peter Clinch

Guest
Artemisia wrote:
> What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?


Wot Ian siad regarding the effective bike differences.

Cutting to the chase of the real question which is, I suspect, "if I run
dynamo lights on my trike do I want LED or halogen" then I would suggest
LED. A bit brighter at low speed, no real difference at high speed,
blowing a bulb isn't really an issue.
I have a LED B&M Oval on the Streetmachine, and it's IMHO a little
better than the (nothing wrong with it) Halgen I used to have, but I
don't need to carry a spare bulb.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
A

Ace

Guest
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:51:23 -0700, Artemisia <[email protected]>
wrote:

>For some reason, I can't find LEDs on sale in France.


How very strange. I'm not 100% certain, as I've not actually bought
any myself, but I'm pretty sure I've seen them on sale both in LBSs
and supermarkets round here.

Then again, itcould be that I've seen them in Suisse, where I work,
and consequently do more LBS browsing.

--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom
 
N

Nigel Cliffe

Guest
Artemisia wrote:
> What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?
>
> For some reason, I can't find LEDs on sale in France. Only halogens. I
> have to get my lights through the UK which seems daft. Is there some
> stupid protectionist law in place? I've been following the other
> discussion on lights and think I may get that Cateye HL-EL500 so
> highly spoken of, for the trike, in addition to / instead of the
> dynamo.


Decathlon list LED front and rear lamps on their French site.

So, I would assume other French shops can sell them as well.
It wouldn't surprise me to find fairly low interest in lamps in France,
where much of the cycling retailing is "sporting" with minimum weight bikes
(both road and VVT) ridden on day rides.


Over boarder to Belgium, Netherlands or Germany might be easier than UK. At
least its one currency.


- Nigel


--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
 
On Sep 6, 4:51 pm, Artemisia <[email protected]> wrote:
> What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?
>
> For some reason, I can't find LEDs on sale in France. Only halogens. I
> have to get my lights through the UK which seems daft. Is there some
> stupid protectionist law in place? I've been following the other
> discussion on lights and think I may get that Cateye HL-EL500 so
> highly spoken of, for the trike, in addition to / instead of the
> dynamo.
>
> Flyzipper uses a 5-LED cluster light by Cateye that I bought at Condor
> a few years ago. It has a very long running power on its 5
> rechargeable AA batteries, but seems to fade from maximum power when
> the batteries are less than fresh (I haven't changed them since last
> fall). I'm not overly enchanted with it for night-riding because it
> creates a bobbing puddle of light in front of the bike that confuses
> my balance, since my eyes follow the light and my bike follows my
> eyes, boinky boinky right into the wall... But that might just be me.
> And it should be less of a problem on a trike. Apart from that it
> strikes me as _vastly_ superior to the halogens available on the
> French market, which eat batteries at a most fearful rate and don't
> seem any brighter or less boinkier.
>
> EFR
> Ile de France


www.ayup.com.au will solve your problems. Fine lights.
 
A

Ace

Guest
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:17:28 +0100, "Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Artemisia wrote:
>> What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?
>>
>> For some reason, I can't find LEDs on sale in France.


>Decathlon list LED front and rear lamps on their French site.


Phew. I thought it was just me.

>So, I would assume other French shops can sell them as well.
>It wouldn't surprise me to find fairly low interest in lamps in France,
>where much of the cycling retailing is "sporting" with minimum weight bikes
>(both road and VVT) ridden on day rides.


I'm sure you're right, but it's also the case that the vast majority
of bikes sold are nominally for road use and therefore have to come
equipped with a full lighting set. How much use they see, and how much
interest in replacement there is, is clearly debateable, as you
suggest.

>Over boarder to Belgium, Netherlands or Germany might be easier than UK.

^^^^^^^
Is this some kind of bike-bed?

--
Ace in Alsace - brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom
 
On Sep 6, 8:06 am, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]
>
>
> If you want brightness, halide are brighter than either, and give much
> moire brightness per unit of electrical power.


While this may be true for "off the shelf" components, I'm pretty sure
LEDs have passed halide in lm/W now.

Wikipedia gives 65-115 lm/W for halide.

For LEDs it has:
Nichia Corp. has developed a white light LED with luminous efficacy of
150 lm/W at a forward current of 20 mA.

The highest efficiency high-power white LED is claimed by Philips
Lumileds Lighting Co. with a luminous efficacy of 115 lm/W (350 mA).

(Of course, 1W is considered high power in LED lighting. I've no idea
what a lower limit might reasonably be for halide but I doubt it's
going to be much less than tens of watts. The smallest I've found with
a quick google is 3900 lm @ 70W and on the same page there is a 110000
lm @ 1000W)


Tim.
 
On 6 Sep, 11:09, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 6, 8:06 am, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > ["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]

>
> > If you want brightness, halide are brighter than either, and give much
> > moire brightness per unit of electrical power.

>
> While this may be true for "off the shelf" components, I'm pretty sure
> LEDs have passed halide in lm/W now.
>
> Wikipedia gives 65-115 lm/W for halide.
>
> For LEDs it has:
> Nichia Corp. has developed a white light LED with luminous efficacy of
> 150 lm/W at a forward current of 20 mA.
>
> The highest efficiency high-power white LED is claimed by Philips
> Lumileds Lighting Co. with a luminous efficacy of 115 lm/W (350 mA).
>
> (Of course, 1W is considered high power in LED lighting. I've no idea
> what a lower limit might reasonably be for halide but I doubt it's
> going to be much less than tens of watts. The smallest I've found with
> a quick google is 3900 lm @ 70W and on the same page there is a 110000
> lm @ 1000W)


You can get much lower power halides than this if you want.

There's quite a lot of data on this site

http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html

for those that are interested.

Rob
 
On Sep 6, 11:36 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On 6 Sep, 11:09, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 6, 8:06 am, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > ["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]

>
> > > If you want brightness, halide are brighter than either, and give much
> > > moire brightness per unit of electrical power.

>
> > While this may be true for "off the shelf" components, I'm pretty sure
> > LEDs have passed halide in lm/W now.

>
> > Wikipedia gives 65-115 lm/W for halide.

>
> > For LEDs it has:
> > Nichia Corp. has developed a white light LED with luminous efficacy of
> > 150 lm/W at a forward current of 20 mA.

>
> > The highest efficiency high-power white LED is claimed by Philips
> > Lumileds Lighting Co. with a luminous efficacy of 115 lm/W (350 mA).

>
> > (Of course, 1W is considered high power in LED lighting. I've no idea
> > what a lower limit might reasonably be for halide but I doubt it's
> > going to be much less than tens of watts. The smallest I've found with
> > a quick google is 3900 lm @ 70W and on the same page there is a 110000
> > lm @ 1000W)

>
> You can get much lower power halides than this if you want.
>
> There's quite a lot of data on this site
>
> http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html
>
> for those that are interested.
>

Aren't those halogen lamps not arc lamps?

I think Ian was talking about high pressure arc discharge halide
bulbs.

Tim.
 
On 6 Sep, 11:52, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 6, 11:36 am, [email protected] wrote:
> > There's quite a lot of data on this site

>
> >http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html

>
> > for those that are interested.

>
> Aren't those halogen lamps not arc lamps?


Yes.

> I think Ian was talking about high pressure arc discharge halide
> bulbs.


OK, didn't think of that, I was a bit puzzled.

I was thinking in terms of things people actually put on bikes. Nobody
puts a high pressure arc discharge halide lamp on a bike... do they?

Rob
 
B

Ben Micklem

Guest
in article [email protected],
[email protected] at [email protected] wrote on 6/9/07 11:52:

> On Sep 6, 11:36 am, [email protected] wrote:
>> On 6 Sep, 11:09, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 6, 8:06 am, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> (Of course, 1W is considered high power in LED lighting. I've no idea
>>> what a lower limit might reasonably be for halide but I doubt it's
>>> going to be much less than tens of watts. The smallest I've found with
>>> a quick google is 3900 lm @ 70W and on the same page there is a 110000
>>> lm @ 1000W)

>>
>> You can get much lower power halides than this if you want.
>>
>> There's quite a lot of data on this site
>>
>> http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html
>>
>> for those that are interested.
>>

> Aren't those halogen lamps not arc lamps?
>
> I think Ian was talking about high pressure arc discharge halide
> bulbs.
>
> Tim.


No, that table has HID metal halide (the 2 at the bottom), LEDs and halogen
bulbs.

Ben
 
On Sep 6, 11:52 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sep 6, 11:36 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On 6 Sep, 11:09, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > On Sep 6, 8:06 am, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > ["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]

>
> > > > If you want brightness, halide are brighter than either, and give much
> > > > moire brightness per unit of electrical power.

>
> > > While this may be true for "off the shelf" components, I'm pretty sure
> > > LEDs have passed halide in lm/W now.

>
> > > Wikipedia gives 65-115 lm/W for halide.

>
> > > For LEDs it has:
> > > Nichia Corp. has developed a white light LED with luminous efficacy of
> > > 150 lm/W at a forward current of 20 mA.

>
> > > The highest efficiency high-power white LED is claimed by Philips
> > > Lumileds Lighting Co. with a luminous efficacy of 115 lm/W (350 mA).

>
> > > (Of course, 1W is considered high power in LED lighting. I've no idea
> > > what a lower limit might reasonably be for halide but I doubt it's
> > > going to be much less than tens of watts. The smallest I've found with
> > > a quick google is 3900 lm @ 70W and on the same page there is a 110000
> > > lm @ 1000W)

>
> > You can get much lower power halides than this if you want.

>
> > There's quite a lot of data on this site

>
> >http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html

>
> > for those that are interested.

>
> Aren't those halogen lamps not arc lamps?
>
> I think Ian was talking about high pressure arc discharge halide
> bulbs.
>

Ahh, I see now that the MR11 are HID. But at those low powers they're
much less efficient than LED. What they will have over LED is the
ability to focus into a much tighter beam.

Tim.
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> If you want brightness, halide are brighter than either, and give much
> moire brightness per unit of electrical power. But maybe you don't
> want to spend 200 quid on just the bulb...
>


If you want brightness go for a HID. Riding out with a group last night my
HID (Planet Bike Alias) was causing problems with the shadows cast from
behind of the cyclists in front. Although one had a Lumicycles and another
a Light and Motion Vega, neither was doing any good in the shadow cast by
my HID. I ended up cycling in the middle of the front riders and lighting
the way for everyone.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
 
On Sep 6, 12:01 pm, Ben Micklem <[email protected]> wrote:
> in article [email protected],
> [email protected] at [email protected] wrote on 6/9/07 11:52:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 6, 11:36 am, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On 6 Sep, 11:09, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >>> On Sep 6, 8:06 am, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> (Of course, 1W is considered high power in LED lighting. I've no idea
> >>> what a lower limit might reasonably be for halide but I doubt it's
> >>> going to be much less than tens of watts. The smallest I've found with
> >>> a quick google is 3900 lm @ 70W and on the same page there is a 110000
> >>> lm @ 1000W)

>
> >> You can get much lower power halides than this if you want.

>
> >> There's quite a lot of data on this site

>
> >>http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html

>
> >> for those that are interested.

>
> > Aren't those halogen lamps not arc lamps?

>
> > I think Ian was talking about high pressure arc discharge halide
> > bulbs.

>
> > Tim.

>
> No, that table has HID metal halide (the 2 at the bottom), LEDs and halogen
> bulbs.
>

Got it now :) Thanks.

So off the shelf HID bicycle lights are about twice as efficient as
LED bicycle lights. But the most efficient LED lights are about twice
as efficient as these low power HID bulbs.

An overvolted halogen bulb equals the HID for efficiency (at the cost
of a much shorter bulb life)

(And I wasn't that far of with a few tens of watts ;-)

Tim.
 
M

Michael Warner

Guest
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:51:23 -0700, Artemisia wrote:

> What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?


My impression of the Australian market is that LEDs and
HID have now, between them, pretty much killed off halogens
except where cost is critical.

I used to have a halogen system, which I picked up cheaply,
but it had poor battery life for its brightness, and a couple of
globes blew over the year or so I used it. It has a nice mechanical
design, though, so I retrofitted a 3W LED to it, replaced the
innards of the battery back to reduce the voltage and weight, and
still use it.
 
D

Dylan Smith

Guest
On 2007-09-06, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ahh, I see now that the MR11 are HID. But at those low powers they're
> much less efficient than LED. What they will have over LED is the
> ability to focus into a much tighter beam.


Surely that depends on the reflector and lens, rather than the bulb?
Especially since you've got single LEDs rated at 4 watts these days.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
 
I

Ian Smith

Guest
["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]
On Thu, 06 Sep, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6 Sep, 07:51, Artemisia <[email protected]> wrote:
> > What lights are brighter, LEDs or halogens?

>
> Well, as discussed in the previous thread, when you say brighter, you
> need to be clear about whether you mean throwing a beam a long way or
> lighting an area brightly.
>
> My understanding is as follows:
>
> For ordinary lights, LEDs are the most efficient i.e. the batteries
> will last longer or they use smaller batteries.


HID are most efficient. LED come second, then halogen.

> Halogen lights have a much smaller source, so
> potentially give a much better beam, given the right optics.


I don't understand this. I think that very Halogen bulb I've ever
seen has a filament larger than the emitter on every LED I've ever
seen. An array of LEDs that are treated optically as a single light
source will be less good (for the reasons you give), but I see no
reason why an array of optically independent high-power LEDS cannot
give as good (or better) a beam.


> look at what MTB riders use at night. Their requirements are rather
> different to road riders - they want extremely bright light but for
> short periods of an hour or two. They get this with largeish
> rechargeable batteries and halogen lights.


They mostly get it with HID these days, I believe. Halogen is very
second-rate.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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