Litespeed Firenze - Has anyone tried?

[Matt O'Toole]

David L. Johnson wrote:

> Just than the fact that it's insulting to Mark Hickey, who has been selling fine titanium frames
> for $695 for several years now. There are others as well, but since I bought a bike from Mark, it
> irks a bit. The real story is that Buycycling has not a clue about what is really available,
> except from companies that have more marketing budget than engineering.

If Mark spent enough money on advertising, I'm sure they'd feature Habanero. However, I bet their
"testers" would conclude his bike may be a good value, but doesn't have quite the magical ride
quality of a $2k frame from <insert prominent brand here>.

Check out the $2k Habanero Century Special from Sheldon Brown:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/habanero.html

I don't know about the Firenze, but Litespeed's frames are so gimmicky -- curved seatstays, shaped
tubes, etc. Plus they paint a lot of their frames, which IMO defeats the whole purpose of titanium
-- the beautiful, paintless finish that's virtually damage proof. If you're gonna paint the thing,
you might as well have aluminum or steel.

Matt O.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

STP wrote:

> "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> I was reading the review of the Litespeed Firenze in the March - it's the first sub $2000
>> titanium bike. Sounds intriguing..... Has anyone tried one out? Any thoughts?
>
> I was intrigued by this bike too but haven't seen one. Here's a link to the pic and specs on
> Litespeed website http://www.litespeed.com/bikes/firenze.aspx
>
> Another new model this year is the Solano which also looks intriguing but again, I haven't seen
> except on the web. http://www.litespeed.com/bikes/solano.aspx

OK, I just looked at those. They're fine (as in yup, that's a bike), but two things:

-the curved seatstay / vertical compliance thing is a load of BS

-oversized seat tubes limit inward movement of front derailers, which can create
drivetrain problems.

For the same dough, I'd rather have the Hab from Sheldon, minus the leather saddle.

Matt O.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> > I was reading the review of the Litespeed Firenze in the March - it's the first sub $2000
> > titanium bike. Sounds intriguing..... Has anyone tried one out? Any thoughts?
>
> Litespeed obviously doesn't have much in the way of late-40s employees. The name "Firenze" was
> given to the junkiest of all junk 10-speeds, a "free" bike given away by Matthew's TV & Stereo
> (Top of the Hill, Daly City) near San Francisco. The Firenze definitely set back the Taiwan bike
> industry a good many years. We associated anything coming out of Taiwan as absolute junk, and the
> earliest KHS bikes tended to confirm this (KHS was one of the first manufacturers to push Taiwanese-
> made bikes into the US market, first through the low-end Miyatas, called Mikados I think).

Are you sure about that last name? There was and is a Mikado brand, but it was and is based in
Quebec (probably built in Taiwan now, and the early-80s Mikado I have has only one remaining
sticker, a little gold MADE IN TAIWAN near the bottom bracket that may or may not have been a joke
by the previous owner).

Anyways, the Mikados from Quebec are fairly deluxe touring rigs. Mine has pretty much every bell and
whistle a touring frame could have: spoke-holder on the chainstay, front and rear mid-height fork
mounts for fenders or panniers, canti brakes, nuts for two or three water bottles, etc.

The frame is nice-looking lugged steel, well-painted but nothing special (the lugs on my Pinarello
have much fancier cutouts and so forth). It was a garage-sale deal for $10.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
> >: I was reading the review of the Litespeed Firenze in the March - it's the first sub $2000
> >: titanium bike. Sounds intriguing..... Has anyone tried one out? Any thoughts?
> >
> >mark .. any thoughts?
> >
> >habcycles.com
>
> I'm just shocked that I apparently haven't ever sold a sub-$2000 ti bike. I guess a lot of my
> previous customers owe me a lot of money!!!
>
> Coooooool.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

Let me say that I stumbled across an Eddy Merckx EX for a price that I could afford and bought it. I
have a whole garage full of steel and aluminum bikes and this was my first Ti bike.

It may very well be my last bike. It seems to have all of the positive features of all of the other
materials and no real downside besides cost and Mark takes care of that one.

I recommend Ti now.

Tom

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> Are you sure about that last name? There was and is a Mikado brand, but it was and is based in
> Quebec (probably built in Taiwan now, and the early-80s Mikado I have has only one remaining
> sticker, a little gold MADE IN TAIWAN near the bottom bracket that may or may not have been a joke
> by the previous owner).

My guess is that it's a different company, *or* perhaps Miyata always sold under the Mikado name in
Canada due to a trademark issue? Many possibilities.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:rcousine-
[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction
> Bicycles" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I was reading the review of the Litespeed Firenze in the March - it's the first sub $2000
> > > titanium bike. Sounds intriguing..... Has anyone tried one out? Any thoughts?
> >
> > Litespeed obviously doesn't have much in the way of late-40s employees.
The
> > name "Firenze" was given to the junkiest of all junk 10-speeds, a "free" bike given away by
> > Matthew's TV & Stereo (Top of the Hill, Daly City)
near
> > San Francisco. The Firenze definitely set back the Taiwan bike industry a good many
years.
> > We associated anything coming out of Taiwan as absolute junk, and the earliest KHS bikes tended
> > to confirm this (KHS was one of the first manufacturers to push Taiwanese-made bikes into the US
> > market, first
through
> > the low-end Miyatas, called Mikados I think).
>
> Are you sure about that last name? There was and is a Mikado brand, but it was and is based in
> Quebec (probably built in Taiwan now, and the early-80s Mikado I have has only one remaining
> sticker, a little gold MADE IN TAIWAN near the bottom bracket that may or may not have been a joke
> by the previous owner).
>
> Anyways, the Mikados from Quebec are fairly deluxe touring rigs. Mine has pretty much every bell
> and whistle a touring frame could have: spoke-holder on the chainstay, front and rear mid-height
> fork mounts for fenders or panniers, canti brakes, nuts for two or three water bottles, etc.
>
> The frame is nice-looking lugged steel, well-painted but nothing special (the lugs on my Pinarello
> have much fancier cutouts and so forth). It was a garage-sale deal for $10.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Jenny]

"Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> If Mark spent enough money on advertising, I'm sure they'd feature Habanero.

Advertising costs money and would drive up the price of the bikes. Look what happened to Airborne.
They also sell Communist Chinese bikes and their prices used to be about the same as Habanero. After
they started advertising a lot, their frame prices went way up.

> I don't know about the Firenze, but Litespeed's frames are so gimmicky -- curved seatstays,
> shaped tubes, etc. Plus they paint a lot of their frames, which IMO defeats the whole purpose of
> titanium -- the

The Firenze drops all the gimicks. Straight tubes. Straight guage. Plain finish. Same price as a
Communist China bike, but made in the USA.

 

[Frank Knox]

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:36:56 +0000, Frank Knox wrote:
>
> > I suspect the OP meant sub $2000 titanium made in the *U.S.* bike. This site has some info on
> > this topic:
>
> Actually, the Buycycling ad/article (hard to tell the difference) did not have any such
> qualification.
>
> >
> http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/report00/huffybikesdoc.shtml
>
> Which has nothing to do with the working conditions at Habanero.
>
I'm DELIGHTED to hear this Habanero treats their workers fairly, *paying union wages and benefits*
comparable to American workers!!! It's about time a Chinese company did this!

China has a very long way to go on fair labor practices (and human rights). Until fairness is the
norm, my family will avoid Chinese purchases whenever possible.
http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/report00/huffybikesdoc.shtml

 

[Jenny]

"Frank Knox" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I'm DELIGHTED to hear this Habanero treats their workers fairly, *paying union wages and benefits*
> comparable to American workers!!! It's about time a Chinese company did this!

Yeah, if more (or *any*) American companies did this to their Communist workers (or contractors),
there would be no more "outsourcing" or "job drain".

 

[Frank Knox]

"Jenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Frank Knox" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
> > I'm DELIGHTED to hear this Habanero treats their workers fairly, *paying union wages and
> > benefits* comparable to American workers!!! It's about time a Chinese company did this!
>
> Yeah, if more (or *any*) American companies did this to their Communist workers (or contractors),
> there would be no more "outsourcing" or "job drain".

The moral issues of slavery, human rights violations, and worker abuse are both real and important
also. Slavery is supposed to be illegal here, but our lawmakers allow greedy importers and consumers
to sell and buy products made by slaves.

 

[David Reuteler]

Jenny <[email protected]> wrote:
: Yeah, if more (or *any*) American companies did this to their Communist workers (or contractors),
: there would be no more "outsourcing" or "job drain".

that would be called charity and it would have little effect on outsourcing since most companies
don't indulge in charity. if you're going to pay domestic rates you may as well reap the benefits by
keeping the jobs domestic.
--
david reuteler [email protected]

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> The moral issues of slavery, human rights violations, and worker abuse are both real and important
> also. Slavery is supposed to be illegal here, but our lawmakers allow greedy importers and
> consumers to sell and buy products made by slaves.

Absolutely true. However, our country, as well as most every other upper-tier country in the
developed world, got where they are due to such practices (in their own countries) in the past.

If we had fair working conditions, environmental protections and a respect for human rights back in
the day, the industrial revolution would have never happened.

I'm not saying this to justify it, but rather to explain that there's a bit more moral ambiguity to
things than meets the eyes. We are direct beneficiaries of such practices right here at home, and
there's more than a small amount of animosity created in many 3rd-world countries when we tell them
that they have to play by our present rules.

Can economic development happen in a manner that's more equitable? Not very likely, unless the
developed world decides that we're going to directly contribute to the well-being of the 3rd world
in a massive way, essentially sharing our wealth. Both the will and the mechanisms for doing so
are lacking.

In a free market (and we're getting closer to that all the time), companies will seek out the lowest-
cost providers, resulting in capital accumulation and economic development in those countries. This
*is* happening in China, in a very big way. China is no longer manufacturing trinkets & trash but
has become an industrial powerhouse, building upon western designs and has become so important, as a
supplier, that they're now making their own demands for industry standards in the electronics field.
Some feel that they're in a position where they cannot afford to manufacture in China (due to
appropriation of designs, basically a lack of respect for intellectual property) yet they cannot
afford not to.

If only such things were as simple as they appear on the surface!

If there's a silver lining, it's that economic co-dependency greatly reduces the likelihood of
military conflict. The fear that China was going to bomb us has been replaced by the reality that
they will eventually bury us economically!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Frank Knox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > "Frank Knox" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> > > I'm DELIGHTED to hear this Habanero treats their workers fairly,
*paying
> > > union wages and benefits* comparable to American workers!!! It's
about
> > > time a Chinese company did this!
> >
> > Yeah, if more (or *any*) American companies did this to their Communist workers (or
> > contractors), there would be no more "outsourcing" or "job drain".
>
> The moral issues of slavery, human rights violations, and worker abuse are both real and important
> also. Slavery is supposed to be illegal here, but our lawmakers allow greedy importers and
> consumers to sell and buy products made by slaves.

 

[Frank Knox]

> "Frank Knox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Jenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > > "Frank Knox" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > news:[email protected]:
> > > > I'm DELIGHTED to hear this Habanero treats their workers fairly,
> *paying
> > > > union wages and benefits* comparable to American workers!!! It's
> about
> > > > time a Chinese company did this!
> >
> > The moral issues of slavery, human rights violations, and worker abuse
are
> > both real and important also. Slavery is supposed to be illegal here, but our lawmakers allow
> > greedy importers and consumers to sell and buy products made by slaves.
http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/report00/huffybikesdoc.shtml

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6db_b.16108$%[email protected]...
> > The moral issues of slavery, human rights violations, and worker abuse
are
> > both real and important also. Slavery is supposed to be illegal here, but our lawmakers allow
> > greedy importers and consumers to sell and buy products made by slaves.
>
> Absolutely true. However, our country, as well as most every other upper-tier country in the
> developed world, got where they are due to such practices (in their own countries) in the past.
>
> If we had fair working conditions, environmental protections and a respect for human rights back
> in the day, the industrial revolution would have
never
> happened.
>
> I'm not saying this to justify it, but rather to explain that there's a
bit
> more moral ambiguity to things than meets the eyes. We are direct beneficiaries of such practices
> right here at home, and there's more than
a
> small amount of animosity created in many 3rd-world countries when we tell them that they have to
> play by our present rules.
>
> Can economic development happen in a manner that's more equitable? Not
very
> likely, unless the developed world decides that we're going to directly contribute to the well-
> being of the 3rd world in a massive way,
essentially
> sharing our wealth. Both the will and the mechanisms for doing so are lacking.
>
> In a free market (and we're getting closer to that all the time),
companies
> will seek out the lowest-cost providers, resulting in capital accumulation and economic
> development in those countries. This *is* happening in
China,
> in a very big way. China is no longer manufacturing trinkets & trash but has become an industrial
> powerhouse, building upon western designs and has become so important, as a supplier, that they're
> now making their own demands for industry standards in the electronics field. Some feel that
> they're in a position where they cannot afford to manufacture in China
(due
> to appropriation of designs, basically a lack of respect for intellectual property) yet they
> cannot afford not to.
>
> If only such things were as simple as they appear on the surface!
>
> If there's a silver lining, it's that economic co-dependency greatly
reduces
> the likelihood of military conflict. The fear that China was going to
bomb
> us has been replaced by the reality that they will eventually bury us economically!
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
What you say makes a lot of sense. However, does the eventual result justify exploitation of these
workers this year? We all want a good deal, but at what cost to ourselves? Can I send a hundred
dollars to a slave driver (when I have a choice) and still be a good person? It's obvious that it
is impossible to avoid purchasing Chinese goods completely because too much of what we must buy is
made there.

But when we use our expendable income we *do* have choices available to us. Hobby equipment, etc.
are high dollar items that may warrant careful consideration before purchase. If your choice is
between a bicycle made by people who are for all practical purposes slaves, and a similar one is
made by decently paid and fairly treated workers but costs more... Where should your dollar vote go?

I'll buy the one made in the U.S., Japan, Canada, or Italy.
http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/report00/huffybikesdoc.shtml

 

[David Kerber]

In article <6db_b.16108$%[email protected]>, mikej1 @ix.netcom.com says...
> > The moral issues of slavery, human rights violations, and worker abuse are both real and
> > important also. Slavery is supposed to be illegal here, but our lawmakers allow greedy importers
> > and consumers to sell and buy products made by slaves.
>
> Absolutely true. However, our country, as well as most every other upper-tier country in the
> developed world, got where they are due to such practices (in their own countries) in the past.
>
> If we had fair working conditions, environmental protections and a respect for human rights back
> in the day, the industrial revolution would have never happened.

Yes it would have; it just would have been much slower, which might be a good thing.

...

> In a free market (and we're getting closer to that all the time), companies will seek out the lowest-
> cost providers, resulting in capital accumulation and economic development in those countries.
> This *is* happening in China,

That's exactly what happened in Taiwan. It used to be (in the 60's and 70's) a very low-cost
place to manufacture. By the 90's, it was one of the higher-cost countries in eastern Asia, and
the low-tech manufacturing was busily moving out of Taiwan to places like Malaysia and Indonesia.
Taiwan continues to succeed, but in higher-tech, more complex manufacturing areas than what got
them started.

...

> If there's a silver lining, it's that economic co-dependency greatly reduces the likelihood of
> military conflict. The fear that China was going to bomb us has been replaced by the reality that
> they will eventually bury us economically!

;-)

....

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

 

[Peter]

Frank Knox wrote:

> But when we use our expendable income we *do* have choices available to us. Hobby equipment,
> etc. are high dollar items that may warrant careful consideration before purchase. If your
> choice is between a bicycle made by people who are for all practical purposes slaves, and a
> similar one is made by decently paid and fairly treated workers but costs more... Where should
> your dollar vote go?
>
> I'll buy the one made in the U.S., Japan, Canada, or Italy.
> http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/report00/huffybikesdoc.shtml
>

If you could find the worker in the Indian (or Thai, etc.) sweatshop who is producing the less
expensive product and ask him which you should buy what do you think his answer would be? Presumably
he's working at that factory because he feels it offers him the best opportunity to feed his family
and if demand falls he may be out of a job.

As consumers we can influence companies to adopt and promote progressive labor practices and as
voters we can have some influence on the direction of our foreign and international trade policies.
But it's not clear that trying to boycott all products produced in countries with a low standard of
living will serve the interests of the people in those countries.

 

[Pete]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote
>

>
> In a free market (and we're getting closer to that all the time),
companies
> will seek out the lowest-cost providers, resulting in capital accumulation and economic
> development in those countries. This *is* happening in
China,
> in a very big way. China is no longer manufacturing trinkets & trash but has become an industrial
> powerhouse, building upon western designs and has become so important, as a supplier, that they're
> now making their own demands for industry standards in the electronics field. Some feel that
> they're in a position where they cannot afford to manufacture in China
(due
> to appropriation of designs, basically a lack of respect for intellectual property) yet they
> cannot afford not to.
>
> If only such things were as simple as they appear on the surface!
>

Same as other industries. The big scarey monster of software outsourcing, India, is stating to worry
about being passed over in favor of China, Vietnam, Russia, and elsewhere.

Same as us...they cannot compete on a 'piece per hour' basis. And the product quality is (usually)
not bad enough to toss out.

Pete

 

[Zippy the Pinhe]

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:15:27 GMT, "Frank Knox"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>But when we use our expendable income we *do* have choices available to us. Hobby equipment,
>etc. are high dollar items that may warrant careful consideration before purchase. If your
>choice is between a bicycle made by people who are for all practical purposes slaves, and a
>similar one is made by decently paid and fairly treated workers but costs more... Where should
>your dollar vote go?

OK, but how do you find out for sure? I recently bought a L. L. Bean parka. Northwoods of
Maine, right?

Wrong. "Made In China". I don't know whether they had the small pring "imported" in the catalog,
because I didn't keep the catalog.

But I'll tell you this: I paid every cent of top dollar for the parka, just as though it had been
made of down personally plucked from snow geese by a Down Easter wearing Birkenstocks.

Somebody made a killing.

 

[Luigi de Guzman]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:43:51 -0600, Zippy the Pinhead
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:15:27 GMT, "Frank Knox" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>But when we use our expendable income we *do* have choices available to us. Hobby equipment,
>>etc. are high dollar items that may warrant careful consideration before purchase. If your
>>choice is between a bicycle made by people who are for all practical purposes slaves, and a
>>similar one is made by decently paid and fairly treated workers but costs more... Where should
>>your dollar vote go?
>
>OK, but how do you find out for sure? I recently bought a L. L. Bean parka. Northwoods of
>Maine, right?
>
>Wrong. "Made In China". I don't know whether they had the small pring "imported" in the catalog,
>because I didn't keep the catalog.
>
>But I'll tell you this: I paid every cent of top dollar for the parka, just as though it had been
>made of down personally plucked from snow geese by a Down Easter wearing Birkenstocks.
>
>Somebody made a killing.

Was it a good jacket?

-Luigi

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Peter wrote:

> If you could find the worker in the Indian (or Thai, etc.) sweatshop who is producing the less
> expensive product and ask him which you should buy what do you think his answer would be?
> Presumably he's working at that factory because he feels it offers him the best opportunity to
> feed his family and if demand falls he may be out of a job.
>
> As consumers we can influence companies to adopt and promote progressive labor practices and as
> voters we can have some influence on the direction of our foreign and international trade
> policies. But it's not clear that trying to boycott all products produced in countries with a low
> standard of living will serve the interests of the people in those countries.

Absolutely.

Assembling Nikes in a sweatshop may suck, but it probably sucks a lot less than stoop labor in a
rice paddy in 100 degree heat, knee deep in human **** (which they use for fertilizer in China).

My grandmother came from Ireland 100 years ago. She worked in sweatshops in New York City for 40
years. The work was hard and low paid, working conditions terrible, bosses abusive, etc. But to her
it beat fishing, which claimed the lives of her father and three of her brothers. And it gave my
father the opportunity to go to college -- which would never have happened, had he been born and
raised in a fishing village in Ireland.

Matt O.

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:48:18 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> from
SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com wrote:

>
>Absolutely true. However, our country, as well as most every other upper-tier country in the
>developed world, got where they are due to such practices (in their own countries) in the past.

No, we got where we are in spite of it. That sort of predatory capitalism drags a country way down
in the long run.

--
[email protected]
What wouldn't you do?
55

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:59:54 GMT, Peter <[email protected]> from self wrote:

>Frank Knox wrote:
>
>> But when we use our expendable income we *do* have choices available to us. Hobby equipment,
>> etc. are high dollar items that may warrant careful consideration before purchase. If your
>> choice is between a bicycle made by people who are for all practical purposes slaves, and a
>> similar one is made by decently paid and fairly treated workers but costs more... Where should
>> your dollar vote go?
>>
>> I'll buy the one made in the U.S., Japan, Canada, or Italy.
>> http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/report00/huffybikesdoc.shtml
>>
>
>If you could find the worker in the Indian (or Thai, etc.) sweatshop who is producing the less
>expensive product and ask him which you should buy what do you think his answer would be?
>Presumably he's working at that factory because he feels it offers him the best opportunity to feed
>his family and if demand falls he may be out of a job.

That's a big presumption. You have any evidence to back it up? From what I can gather, most
sweatshop workers are either forced or tricked into their jobs.

>As consumers we can influence companies to adopt and promote progressive labor practices and as
>voters we can have some influence on the direction of our foreign and international trade policies.
>But it's not clear that trying to boycott all products produced in countries with a low standard of
>living will serve the interests of the people in those countries.

Who says we have to serve their interests? Any product that can be in a sweatshop overseas can be
made here by union workers who earn a living wage. How about we serve the interest of employing our
own people?

--
[email protected]
Use fewer notes.
68