Local school kids helmet "bribe".



Status
Not open for further replies.
On Mon, 05 May 2003 17:17:30 +0100, Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2 May 2003 08:31:53 GMT, Toby Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Aaaargh! Wearing a helmet has little to do with road safety.
>
> How can you believe something like that is even remotely true?

Err, because it's patently obviously true?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
On Mon, 5 May 2003 18:44:55 +0100, "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Paul Allen wrote:
>> Even a £10 helmet is better than none.

>I would think that a GBP10 helmet is likely to be poorly fitting, poorly ventilated and not to come
>close to the safety standards that I insist on a helmet meeting.

As a significant proportion of accidents are to the head, yes, even a £10 helmet is better than
none. The rest of your opinion was either exaggerated or wrong, imho.

Why does it HAVE to be poorly fitting? Re: safety standards, as long as it meets BS or snell
standards, its much better than "air" as a head protector in some accidents.

Why aren't you getting this? For the record, *I* do not wear a helmet. So I'm not insisting YOU wear
one, I'm just trying to say the wearing a helmet is NOT evil or bad, and certainly safer than NOT
WEARING ONE. Your logic defies belief.
 
On Mon, 5 May 2003 19:21:18 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 05 May 2003 17:17:30 +0100, Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2 May 2003 08:31:53 GMT, Toby Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >Aaaargh! Wearing a helmet has little to do with road safety.

>> How can you believe something like that is even remotely true?

>Err, because it's patently obviously true?

Put me straight - you're saying that wearing a helmet has NOTHING to do with road safety?

Bizarre.
 
Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 3 May 2003 03:04:13 -0700, [email protected] (Dave Kahn) wrote:
>
> >Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >> It may not reduce the number of accidents, but if it rewards kids for wearing helmets, how can
> >> it be in any way bad?
> >
> >See Daniel's earlier reply.
>
> Already discounted, thanks.

Then it would have saved time all round if you'd said that in the first place, rather than implying
that you hadn't read it.

--
Dave...
 
Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Mon, 5 May 2003 19:21:18 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 05 May 2003 17:17:30 +0100, Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On 2 May 2003 08:31:53 GMT, Toby Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >Aaaargh! Wearing a helmet has little to do with road safety.
>
> >> How can you believe something like that is even remotely true?
>
> >Err, because it's patently obviously true?
>
> Put me straight - you're saying that wearing a helmet has NOTHING to do with road safety?

No. He said "little to do with", not "nothing to do with".

--
Dave...
 
On 6 May 2003 00:16:44 -0700, [email protected] (Dave Kahn) wrote:

>No. He said "little to do with", not "nothing to do with".

Fair enough but I disagree that it's "Much more to do with victim-blaming, abdicating responsibility
for real action, and discouraging cycling by making it look dangerous".

Cloud cuckoo land....
 
On 6 May 2003 00:11:35 -0700, [email protected] (Dave Kahn) wrote:

>Then it would have saved time all round if you'd said that in the first place, rather than implying
>that you hadn't read it.

Sorry, my newsgroup server isn't the best... I posted it quite quickly, only to find it hadn't
posted at all.

That's NTL for you....
 
Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote in news:ihuebvgivaigs63st157bhf5tn5i0d7dk6@ 4ax.com:

> On 6 May 2003 00:16:44 -0700, [email protected] (Dave Kahn) wrote:
>
>>No. He said "little to do with", not "nothing to do with".
>
>
> Fair enough but I disagree that it's "Much more to do with victim-blaming, abdicating
> responsibility for real action, and discouraging cycling by making it look dangerous".
>
> Cloud cuckoo land....
>

I think those were my original words. Consider:

1. Victim blaming: we have already seen this in the context of insurance companies trying to avoid
paying out for cyclists injured when not wearing a helmet. Promoting helmets goes along with
this view.

2. Abdication of responsibility for real action on road safety: what is easier for (local or
national) government? Putting through unpopular legislation or changes in the enviroment (making
drivers automatically repsonsible for injuires to vulnerable road users, more speed cameras,
etc), or printing a few leaflets about cycle helmets for schools?

3. Discouraging cycling: it is well documented (see John Frankin's website
http://www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/helmets/helmets.html ) that the only undisputed effect of
helmet legislation is reduction is cycling. I would suggest that heavy promotion has a similat
effect, and that the perception of danger in one reason.

Toby

--
Remove spamtrap to reply by mail
 
Paul Allen <[email protected]> writes:

> On Mon, 5 May 2003 19:21:18 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 05 May 2003 17:17:30 +0100, Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 2 May 2003 08:31:53 GMT, Toby Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> >Aaaargh! Wearing a helmet has little to do with road safety.
>
>>> How can you believe something like that is even remotely true?
>
>>Err, because it's patently obviously true?
> Put me straight - you're saying that wearing a helmet has NOTHING to do with road safety?

He said "little", not "nothing". S'true.

Would you rather fall off, bang your head on the road, and be turned into a vegetable, or have your
brain saved by a layer of polystyrene? I'd _much_ rather not fall off, and I think it's not
unreasonable that the majority of road safety teaching should be about accident _prevention_, rather
than how to cope when something bad has already happened.

I live in Oxford, European City of Unlit Cyclists. You'd be amazed how many of them are
wearing helmets.

-dan

--

http://www.cliki.net/ - Link farm for free CL-on-Unix resources
 
On Tue, 6 May 2003, Daniel Barlow wrote:

> I live in Oxford, European City of Unlit Cyclists. You'd be amazed how many of them are wearing
> helmets.

And presumably cycling the wrong way up one-way streets? ;-)

The Cambridgeshire police usually crack down on unlit cyclists early in each academic year,
administering a small on-the-spot fine to offenders. If you are unlit and going the wrong way, you
would pay twice as much.

It is perceived to make a big difference. Unfortunately they don't seem to have done this to the
same extent as usual this year.

At most universities, there is a "welfare" briefing in the first week or so. They normally manage to
fit in a lengthy session on the use of contraceptives. Do you think it would be worthwhile to have a
similar session on safe cycling?

Somehow I suspect that the JCRs won't be distributing free cycle lights, etc., but we can
always hope! ;-)

--
Daniel Auger - [email protected] (Please remove Granta to get a valid address.)
 
In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0305061215270.6448-100000 @potoroo.eng.cam.ac.uk>,
[email protected] says...
> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Daniel Barlow wrote:
>
> > I live in Oxford, European City of Unlit Cyclists. You'd be amazed how many of them are wearing
> > helmets.
>
> And presumably cycling the wrong way up one-way streets? ;-)
>
> The Cambridgeshire police usually crack down on unlit cyclists early in each academic year,
> administering a small on-the-spot fine to offenders. If you are unlit and going the wrong way, you
> would pay twice as much.

The usual crackdown in Oxford is when the clocks go back and a usual place is Magdalen Bridge as it
is the one main access between the city and East Oxford.

Colin
 
Daniel Auger <[email protected]> wrote: ( On Tue, 6 May 2003, Daniel Barlow wrote: ) > I live
in Oxford, European City of Unlit Cyclists. You'd be amazed how ( > many of them are wearing
helmets. ) And presumably cycling the wrong way up one-way streets? ;-)

There are almost no one-way streets in central Oxford and Northocks Ford that do not have
contra-flow cycle lanes on them. It's not plain that this is a Good Thing, but it does add to the
confusion of nations. Bliss it was to be alive when the Turl had a contra-clow cycle lane.

Some of those of us who have been here too long are still entertained by the current condition of
the Turl, which has at various times been a one-way street. It's currently two-way along its whole
length for all vehicles, although with a rising bollard in the middle and with no motor vehicle
access at one end; but so many drivers remember its being one-way that I have twice in the course of
responding to a harangue from a driver had occasion to congratulate the driver for the length of his
memory and his relative inability to read road signs. I suppose things are not helped by the
adjacent Market Street being closed to all vehicles at one end except when it is part-time one-way.

And then there was the contra-flow cycle lane in Mansfield Road. There was the time when it was only
necessary to turn a single one-way sign to make a closed loop for motor vehicles, although there was
an escape for cycles (and cyclists). I'm worried about Oxford's signs with words on them that are
sometimes about cycles and sometimes about cyclists. And the mechanically controlled tidal flow on
Magdalen Bridge was quite fun too. Bring back the trams.
 
Paul Allen wrote:
> As a significant proportion of accidents are to the head, yes, even a £10 helmet is better than
> none. The rest of your opinion was either exaggerated or wrong, imho.

Can you quote a proportion? Also, what proportion of incidents were blows to a helmet (resulting in
neck injury or torsional brain injury), where if no helmet had been worn the head (being effectively
smaller) would have escaped contact with the other object?

Of course you can't answer that, no more can I. Reliable figures simply aren't kept.

I don't dispute that there are incidents where a helmet can prevent injury. I *do* dispute your
belief that a cyclist is necessarily less likely to sustain a serious injury when wearing a helmet
than when not.

> Why does it HAVE to be poorly fitting? Re: safety standards, as long as it meets BS or snell
> standards ...

It doesn't have to be poorly fitting, though of course a cheap helmet is less likely to have the
various high tech mechanisms found in many more expensive helmets for adjusting to the perfect fit.
And I see a great many poorly fitting helmets during the summer. When I see children wearing helmets
they are usually not properly fitted, and a poorly fitting helmet is a significant safety hazard.

I had no idea how much childrens' helmets cost, and was going to comment that I would be mightily
impressed if you could find a Snell approved helmet for a tenner. But I've just taken a look at SJS
and found a Snell approved adult helmet for 15 quid. There's also an ANSI approved child helmet for
GBP5.10. OK, I'm impressed. (It might fit me too - it's supposed to fit 52cm to 56cm - but I need a
little more ventilation).

> ... its much better than "air" as a head protector in some accidents.

The crucial word there is "some". There are also some incidents where a helmet is more likely to
cause injury than to prevent it, as well as situations where a helmet might make a crash more likely
in the first place. Which is why I don't wear one in the summer.

> Why aren't you getting this? For the record, *I* do not wear a helmet. So I'm not insisting YOU
> wear one, I'm just trying to say the wearing a helmet is NOT evil or bad, and certainly safer than
> NOT WEARING ONE. Your logic defies belief.

I accept that you're not insisting that anyone should wear a helmet. You *are* insisting that it is
always safer to wear a helmet than not to wear one. This is wrong.

A poorly fitting helmet poses significant safety hazards without offering much benefit. Helmets
(properly fitted or not) may make a crash more likely in certain circumstances and may increase the
likelihood and the severity of certain types of injury in the event of a crash.

I think, on the whole, that I would encourage children to wear helmets, provided the helmets are
properly adjusted, Snell or ANSI approved, and not seen as a substitute for road sense or bike
handling skills. But I do not believe that the benefits of helmets are anywhere near as clear cut as
you believe.

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny ) Recumbent cycle page:
http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine
 
On Tue, 06 May 2003 00:13:32 +0100, Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote:

>Why aren't you getting this? For the record, *I* do not wear a helmet. So I'm not insisting YOU
>wear one, I'm just trying to say the wearing a helmet is NOT evil or bad, and certainly safer than
>NOT WEARING ONE. Your logic defies belief.
>

Hi Paul

I've never read in this NG of anyone stating that one should not wear a helmet. I've only ever come
across the pro or pro-choice arguments. In fact, the only group I've ever heard arguing against
helemts was a groups of American bikers. Their logic was they'd prefer to be dead than paralysed for
the rest of their lives.

>its much better than "air" as a head protector in some accidents.
>

Like you, I don't wear a helmet either. I'm prepared to suffer - another :-/ - bang on the head. The
wonderful unconstricted feeling of the wind in my hair whilst riding slowly along a country lane is
worth the risk, IMO.

James

--
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.butty/Larrau.jpg
 
"Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected].
>
> I think, on the whole, that I would encourage children to wear helmets, provided the helmets are
> properly adjusted, Snell or ANSI approved, and not seen as a substitute for road sense or bike
> handling skills. But I do not believe that the benefits of helmets are anywhere near as clear cut
> as you believe.
>
> --
> Danny Colyer

According to a Cycling + article from April 2002 ANSI no longer functions and "should now be
ignored". Apparently the letters to look out for now are ASTM and CPSC which match the SNELL B-90
standards but not the SNELL B-95. Unfortunately the article gives very little information on what
the standards actually consist of.

tony R.
 
tony R wrote:
> According to a Cycling + article from April 2002 ANSI no longer functions and "should now be
> ignored".

Hmm. That rings a bell. I'm surprised I forgot that.

> Apparently the letters to look out for now are ASTM and CPSC which match the SNELL B-90 standards
> but not the SNELL B-95.

Last time I was looking for a helmet, I couldn't find a Snell approved helmet anywhere. Now that I'm
in the market for a new lid again, I shall again be looking for a Snell sticker.

Snell isn't an acronym like most of the others, BTW. The Snell Memorial Foundation (
http://www.smf.org ) is named after William Snell, an amateur racing driver who died from head
injuries sustained in a crash. The foundation exists to improve helmet standards.

--
Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny ) Recumbent cycle page:
http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
Thomas Paine
 
Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Mon, 5 May 2003 18:44:55 +0100, "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I would think that a GBP10 helmet is likely to be poorly fitting, poorly ventilated and not to
> >come close to the safety standards that I insist on a helmet meeting.
> As a significant proportion of accidents are to the head, yes, even a £10 helmet is better than
> none. The rest of your opinion was either exaggerated or wrong, imho.
>
> Why does it HAVE to be poorly fitting? Re: safety standards, as long as it meets BS or snell
> standards, its much better than "air" as a head protector in some accidents.

I believe a recent comparison showed that price is not a reliable guide to helmet quality, at least
as far as protection goes. The most expensive helmets tend to be the lightest ones with the most
holes and the most bizarre shapes. They are more likely to shave as close as possible to the marked
standard without actually falling beneath it. The cheapest helmets were generally as good as, or
better than, the most expensive ones with the same standard markings.

If protection is your primary aim in buying a helmet* I would look first for the standard markings,
secondly for fit, and if these are equal go for the roundest shapes and the fewest holes, i.e. the
least fashionable.

* It might seem strange that there could be any other aim, but some people will be buying helmets
simply to be race legal and will be looking for the lightest, most aerodynamic one they can get
away with.

--
Dave...
 
Dave Kahn <[email protected]> wrote:

: If protection is your primary aim in buying a helmet* I would look first for the standard
: markings, secondly for fit, and if these are equal go for the roundest shapes and the fewest
: holes, i.e. the least fashionable.

The trouble with the one with few holes is that they get very hot in summer. Too hot for me anyway.

: * It might seem strange that there could be any other aim, but some people will be buying helmets
: simply to be race legal and will be looking for the lightest, most aerodynamic one they can get
: away with.

Which is a perfectly valid aim, but as you say, not the same as buying one for safety.

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org Power is delightful. Absolute power is absolutely delightful -
Lord Lester
 
In news:[email protected], Paul Allen <[email protected]> typed:

> Why does it HAVE to be poorly fitting? Re: safety standards, as long as it meets BS or snell
> standards, its much better than "air" as a head protector in some accidents.

I think you meant hair, not air, which some people think may enable the head to slide and
reduce impacts.

Heads may also be injured through negligence as well as accidents.

A
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads