Local school kids helmet "bribe".

[Paul Allen]

On 12 May 2003 14:41:45 +0100 (BST), David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>That is a rather odd criticism coming from you; you have essentially resorted to bogus helmet
>argument #1 "it's obvious" in the face of well thought out arguments to which you cannot think of a
>response.

"Well thought out" -in other words "tediously protracted".

"Helmets are Evil" - I get it.... how dare try and protect your head? Who do they think they are?
--
------- o ----- <#\, --- ()/() Belfast Biker Specialized Sirrus + Gilera Runner! N54 33' W05 58'

 

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 12 May 2003 20:40:06 GMT, [email protected] (Patrick Herring) wrote:

>"Robin Long" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>| Wearing a helmet whilst riding 20mph-30mph, or more, on a skinny wheeled bike helps to avoid a
>| reasonably foreseeable consequence of falling off.
>|
>| At the end of the day it's your decision, I hope you make what I consider to be the right one.
>
>FUD

fud?

--
------- o ----- <#\, --- ()/() Belfast Biker Specialized Sirrus + Gilera Runner! N54 33' W05 58'

 

[David Damerell]

Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote:
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>That is a rather odd criticism coming from you; you have essentially resorted to bogus helmet
>>argument #1 "it's obvious" in the face of well thought out arguments to which you cannot think of
>>a response.
>"Helmets are Evil" - I get it.... how dare try and protect your head? Who do they think they are?

This is another iteration of bogus helmet argument #1, with a slight shift in the direction of
abuse, which is the usual place where pro-helmet types end up. Must do better.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?

 

[David Damerell]

Robin Long <[email protected]> wrote: [Vile OE quoting tidied up - get a real newsreader.]
>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>Robin Long <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Got knocked off my bike by a blind motorist. Helmet split in two. Possibly saved my life.
>> When did you repeat this test with a control unhelmented head?
>I did say possibly.

It's _possible_ that any one of a number of things saved your life. Perhaps your underpants were
chafing just enough to slow you down enough to save your skull from being cracked open. But you
didn't say "WEAR UNDERPANTS"...
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?

 

[Dave Kahn]

Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Mon, 12 May 2003 20:40:06 GMT, [email protected] (Patrick Herring) wrote:

> >FUD
> fud?

Fear, uncertainty and doubt. The acronym was coined by Gene Amdahl to describe IBM's sales strategy.

--
Dave..

 

[Dave Kahn]

"Simon Mason" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Cheers Bo and here's the first set of kids with their chance to win a bike.
>
> http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zletters1.htm

Leah Butler, 10, leads the way with a demonstration of how to ride safely. Ill-fitting helmet
perched on the top of her head, front reflector pointing at the sky, and brake levers she
cannot reach.

--
Dave...

 

[Peter Clinch]

Paul Allen wrote:

> "Helmets are Evil" - I get it.... how dare try and protect your head? Who do they think they are?

"try" does not imply "succeed" though. If you look at the hard numbers then cycle helmets are
unlikely to make much of a difference in the sort of accident that will give you a serious head
injury. That in itself doesn't make them bad (I wear one to cut down my chance of a nasty graze and
associated discomfort), but the fact is that Mr. & Mrs. J. Public are generally labouring under the
misapprehension that (a) cycling without a helmet is not safe, and (b) cycling with a helmet is.
Neither are true, and both draw attention away from things that will make far more difference to
safe riding. Though helmets aren't bad, that particular side effect of "the helmet debate" *is* bad.

I think if every new bike had a free copy of Cyclecraft or similar given away with it then that
would quite possibly dent the accident figures more than all of those same riders wearing
helmets. Anyone encouraging people to read anything beyond the Highway Code? Are they even
encouraged to do that?

The point about the "anti" camp is it isn't, by and large, actually against wearing of helmets. It's
against promotion and presentation of helmets as some sort of panacea, especially where that's at
the expense of something which is more useful for protecting people. How dare they try and reduce
accidents in the first place! Who do they think they are?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Ambrose Nankive]

In news:[email protected], Dave Kahn <[email protected]> typed:
> Paul Allen <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> On Mon, 12 May 2003 20:40:06 GMT, [email protected] (Patrick Herring) wrote:
>
>>> FUD
>> fud?
>
> Fear, uncertainty and doubt. The acronym was coined by Gene Amdahl to describe IBM's sales
> strategy.

Although, given the questioner's name (same as the co-founder of Microsoft), he may be more familiar
with it as the response by Linux users to Microsoft's promotional activities against Linux.

I'm still slightly slighted by the fact that last time there was an OS war here, I was told using
Windows was equivalent to driving a car everywhere, whereas I merely mentioned that I couldn't get
all the esoteric things I use to run on Linux.

A

 

[David Damerell]

Dave Kahn <[email protected]> wrote:
>Leah Butler, 10, leads the way with a demonstration of how to ride safely. Ill-fitting helmet
>perched on the top of her head, front reflector pointing at the sky, and brake levers she
>cannot reach.

Yes - if the police want to bother cyclists, they'd do better to check for operational brakes than
deflector beanies...
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!

 

[Marc]

W K <[email protected]> wrote:

> > > Luckier than Andrei Kivilev.
> >
> > So, by extension, all drivers of cars in the UK should have roll cages, five-point harnesses,
> > fireproof suits and helmets? It might have the desired effect in reducing car traffic, I
> > suppose, and it would certainly help them avoid the fate of [insert name of dead motor racing
> > driver here].
>
> a useful piece of info from uk.transport. If you pay to go on a racetrack with your own car, they
> insist you wear a helmet if you intend to drive over 70 mph.
No THEY don't if you pay to join a commercial "track day" some organisers will insist on you wearing
a helmet if you intend....
>

--
Marc Tabards, banners and signs for fundraising events and charities
http://www.jaceeprint.demon.co.uk/

 

[Marc]

Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Thats the trouble with bents. Lay back, relax, .......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

and find yourself doing 135mph!

--
Marc Tabards, banners and signs for fundraising events and charities
http://www.jaceeprint.demon.co.uk/

 

[Tim Woodall]

On Mon, 12 May 2003 14:41:45 +0100, Simon Mason <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> http://www.simonmason.karoo.net/zletters1.htm
>
Simon, I know you have already been hassled once over these postings and have modified your posting
style but can I make another request:

Could you put the date, page and paper you are taking these cutting from on the web page. Possibly
just cut out the top margin of the paper where it has the page number, date and usually the paper
and scan it with the article.

You probably ought to do this for copyright reasons anyway but I would quite like to use this
picture re the helmet thread and the DfT research but I don't have the information to provide a
proper citation.

Regards,

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

 

[Robin Long]

"Patrick Herring" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Robin Long" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> | Wearing a helmet whilst riding 20mph-30mph, or more, on a skinny wheeled bike helps to avoid a
reasonably
> | foreseeable consequence of falling off.
> |
> | At the end of the day it's your decision, I hope you make what I
consider to
> | be the right one.
>
> FUD
>
> --
> Patrick Herring, Sheffield, UK http://www.anweald.co.uk

Forgive me for being naive, but what does FUD stand for? If it's an insult, why was I insulted? And
ask if I care.

Robin.

 

[Paul Allen]

On 13 May 2003 02:02:36 +0100 (BST), David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>Must do better.

Or give up in the face of stupidity?

This picture is so fitting.... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/belfast-biker/misc/arguing.jpg

(Yes, I'm a very bad man, I get it...)

--
------- o ----- <#\, --- ()/() Belfast Biker Specialized Sirrus + Gilera Runner! N54 33' W05 58'

 

[Michael Macclan]

In message <[email protected]>, Robin Long <[email protected]> writes
>I am not campaigning for compulsory helmet wear. As a Police Officer I know it is unenforceable. I
>do think people should be encouraged to wear and then make their own decision.

If there was clear evidence about the effectiveness of helmets people would wear them voluntarily.
There isn't, and many therefore don't.

>It's all about trying to minimise risk. I occasionally cut my fingers slicing onions. It doesn't
>mean I should wear chain mail gloves, although if I were a butcher I might do.

Chain mail might be a bit excessive but I'm sure you could wear thin protective gloves. Not worth
the bother? Well that seems to be the conclusion of many people who don't wear helmets. They realise
that helmets have pro's and con's. The evidence that's been produced really is inconclusive and
cycling has decreased where helmets have been made compulsory.
>
>The only way to avoid all accidents is to wrap up in protective clothing, never go out and never do
>anything.

Correct.

>Wearing a helmet whilst riding 20mph-30mph, or more, on a skinny wheeled bike helps to avoid a
>reasonably foreseeable consequence of falling off.

Incorrect. These are conditions that cycling helmets aren't designed to protect against.
>
>At the end of the day it's your decision, I hope you make what I consider to be the right one.

Rather patronising, don't you think? You obviously don't think there is another side to
the argument.

And the guy who responded with 'FUD' was spot on. The comment 'I hope you make what I consider to be
the right one' could have come out of a lot of sales seminars. Or is it a tactic the police use in
interrogations?

BTW, I always wear a helmet but acknowledge the fact that it will only protect against minor bumps
and scrapes and I respect other people's choice in the matter.
--
Michael MacClancy

 

[W K]

"Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, Robin Long

<snip> BTW.. I cut onions carefully with the blade close to downward pointing fingernail

> >Wearing a helmet whilst riding 20mph-30mph, or more, on a skinny wheeled bike helps to avoid a
> >reasonably foreseeable consequence of falling off.
>
> Incorrect. These are conditions that cycling helmets aren't designed to protect against.

Sure about that one? Isn't it against impact against a brick wall or a vehicle at this speed.

If its about coming off and sliding about or rolling around at 30mph, the speed of the head impact
would be less, and the helmet potentially useful.

 

[Michael Macclan]

In message <[email protected]>, W K <[email protected]> writes
>
>"Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In message <[email protected]>, Robin Long
>
><snip> BTW.. I cut onions carefully with the blade close to downward pointing fingernail
>
>> >Wearing a helmet whilst riding 20mph-30mph, or more, on a skinny wheeled bike helps to avoid a
>> >reasonably foreseeable consequence of falling off.
>>
>> Incorrect. These are conditions that cycling helmets aren't designed to protect against.
>
>Sure about that one? Isn't it against impact against a brick wall or a vehicle at this speed.
>
>If its about coming off and sliding about or rolling around at 30mph, the speed of the head impact
>would be less, and the helmet potentially useful.
>
>
>
I don't disagree with your point about sliding but the OP seemed to suggest (or, at least, didn't
discount) that the helmet would be useful in the full on 30 mph collision. Some might argue that the
helmet could increase the likelihood of rotational neck injuries because the greater diameter of the
helmet applies greater forces to the neck but I suppose the cover is slippery enough to stop this.
--
Michael MacClancy

 

[Tim Woodall]

On Tue, 13 May 2003 20:03:16 +0100, Michael MacClancy <[email protected]> wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>, Robin Long
> <[email protected]> writes
>
>>Wearing a helmet whilst riding 20mph-30mph, or more, on a skinny wheeled bike helps to avoid a
>>reasonably foreseeable consequence of falling off.
>
> Incorrect. These are conditions that cycling helmets aren't designed to protect against.

I would also add that you don't just "fall off" at those speeds. Something else has gone wrong
first, be it a car pulling out, ice, pothole or tyre blowout.

I thought it amusing at the weekend when I overheard two cyclists talking about taking their helmets
off for the climbs because it was too hot but putting them back on for the descents. I'm not sure
where they were talking about but when I was in the Alps my climbing speed was usually near enough
5mph and my descending speed 40mph+

Regards,

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

 

[Just Zis Guy]

On Tue, 13 May 2003 11:53:57 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I merely mentioned that I couldn't get all the esoteric things I use to run on Linux.

Clearly not - it only does Windows emulation. You need a genuine Mac to run the esoteric stuff.
Obviously ;-)

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

 

[Ambrose Nankive]

In news:[email protected], Michael MacClancy
<[email protected]> typed:
> I don't disagree with your point about sliding but the OP seemed to suggest (or, at least, didn't
> discount) that the helmet would be useful in the full on 30 mph collision. Some might argue that
> the helmet could increase the likelihood of rotational neck injuries because the greater diameter
> of the helmet applies greater forces to the neck but I suppose the cover is slippery enough to
> stop this.

I doubt it's as slippy as hair, though.