loose headset question

[Mark Heiple]

I had my bike overhauled a couple months ago (stripped down, new cables,
new bearings in hubs, etc.) Turned out I also needed a new headset
(threaded) because the bottom seal had failed and the bearings were shot.

After a couple rides, the new headset loosened up quite a bit - I could
feel a rattle in the handlebars going over bumps and when I lock the
front brake and rock the bike forward I could feel it clicking.

I took it back to the bike shop and they tightened it up, and all was
well for a while. The last couple rides it feels like it is loosening
up again. Not as bad as when it was first installed, but I can feel it
click when I lock the front brake and rock it forward.

Is it normal for headsets to loosen up? How loose is too loose? I've
read that in the long run a loose headset can be bad - ovalized head
tube and risk of the steerer breaking, so I don't want to let it go if
it is a problem.

Thanks.

 

[Chris Nelson]

> Is it normal for headsets to loosen up?

No

> How loose is too loose?

Lock the front brake and rock the bike from front to back with your
thumb on the interface between the headset and headtube. If you can
hear or feel clicking, its too loose.

> I've read that in the long run a loose headset can be bad - ovalized head
> tube and risk of the steerer breaking, so I don't want to let it go if
> it is a problem.

Don't let it go. Bad things can and will happen. Keep taking it back
and have it adjusted until they get it right or take it somewhere else
or learn to do it yourself.

Chris

 

[Hank Wirtz]

"Chris Nelson" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>> Is it normal for headsets to loosen up?
>
> No
>
>> How loose is too loose?
>
> Lock the front brake and rock the bike from front to back with your
> thumb on the interface between the headset and headtube. If you can
> hear or feel clicking, its too loose.
>
>> I've read that in the long run a loose headset can be bad - ovalized
>> head tube and risk of the steerer breaking, so I don't want to let it
>> go if it is a problem.
>
> Don't let it go. Bad things can and will happen. Keep taking it back
> and have it adjusted until they get it right or take it somewhere else
> or learn to do it yourself.
>
> Chris
>
>

I doubt it's a matter of them doing it right or not. On a newly
installed headset, the crown race and lower cup will press in further
with riding. After my repaint this winter, I had a new headset put in,
and they told me to check its adjustment frequently during the first
several hundred miles, as the races would settle in and it would require
tightening several times before everything seated completely. They
offered to to it if I didn't have the tools, but I do, and I did have to
tighten it several times. It seemed settled in by about 400 miles, and
it's been fine for the last 1000.

So, it's normal, but definitely tighten it when it needs it.

 

[Chris Nelson]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> "Chris Nelson" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> >> Is it normal for headsets to loosen up?
> >
> > No
> >
> >> How loose is too loose?
> >
> > Lock the front brake and rock the bike from front to back with your
> > thumb on the interface between the headset and headtube. If you can
> > hear or feel clicking, its too loose.
> >
> >> I've read that in the long run a loose headset can be bad - ovalized
> >> head tube and risk of the steerer breaking, so I don't want to let it
> >> go if it is a problem.
> >
> > Don't let it go. Bad things can and will happen. Keep taking it back
> > and have it adjusted until they get it right or take it somewhere else
> > or learn to do it yourself.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
> I doubt it's a matter of them doing it right or not. On a newly
> installed headset, the crown race and lower cup will press in further
> with riding. After my repaint this winter, I had a new headset put in,
> and they told me to check its adjustment frequently during the first
> several hundred miles, as the races would settle in and it would require
> tightening several times before everything seated completely. They
> offered to to it if I didn't have the tools, but I do, and I did have to
> tighten it several times. It seemed settled in by about 400 miles, and
> it's been fine for the last 1000.
>
> So, it's normal, but definitely tighten it when it needs it.

Well maybe I just got lucky, last 2 headsets went in without susequent
adjustment. One was pressed in by a shop and the other I did myself
with a homemade press. I did the races myself also.

Chris

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:45:13 -0400, Mark Heiple <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Is it normal for headsets to loosen up?
No.

> How loose is too loose?
Yours is too loose for sure. Perhaps a minute amount of play that you
feel when rocking the bike back and forth with the brakes on is
acceptable, but it should be alsmost zero play.

Something is wrong. Either the guys at the shop dont know what they're
doing or there is some other problem with the frame or headset. If
it's the latter, they should have began looking for the underlying
problem when you brought the bike back after the first loosening.

JT

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[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:02:56 -0500, Hank Wirtz
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I doubt it's a matter of them doing it right or not.
> installed headset, the crown race and lower cup
> will press in further with riding.

I disagree. These parts should and can be installed as far as they can
go. Nothing should change with riding.

JT

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[Hank Wirtz]

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:02:56 -0500, Hank Wirtz
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I doubt it's a matter of them doing it right or not.
>> installed headset, the crown race and lower cup
>> will press in further with riding.
>
> I disagree. These parts should and can be installed as far as they can
> go. Nothing should change with riding.
>
> JT
>

Disagree all you want. This advice came from the head mechanic at one of
the most respected shops in the country. Maybe he was specifically talking
about my model of headset (Stronglight A9), or of needle-bearing headsets,
or of alloy headsets in steel frames, but he correctly predicted what would
happen and how long it would take to settle in, and offered free help in
dealing with it. That doesn't strike me as lack of skill or know-how.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:45:13 -0400, Mark Heiple wrote:

> Is it normal for headsets to loosen up? How loose is too loose? I've
> read that in the long run a loose headset can be bad - ovalized head
> tube and risk of the steerer breaking, so I don't want to let it go if
> it is a problem.

It is common, but not normal. If the new cups had not been properly
pressed into the frame, or the crown race not completely seated against
the fork crown, then as you ride these parts will work their way in to
their proper position. But it is not an indicator of a job well done.

It could also be simpler than that; just a locknut that was not
sufficiently tightened. But in no event is this unavoidable, and it
shouldn't be ignored. Take it back to the shop, and fuss at them to fix
it right, and right away.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President
_`\(,_ | should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams
(_)/ (_) |

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 22:01:33 -0500, Hank Wirtz wrote:

> Disagree all you want. This advice came from the head mechanic at one of
> the most respected shops in the country. Maybe he was specifically talking
> about my model of headset (Stronglight A9), or of needle-bearing headsets,
> or of alloy headsets in steel frames, but he correctly predicted what would
> happen and how long it would take to settle in, and offered free help in
> dealing with it. That doesn't strike me as lack of skill or know-how.

You can get away with it, and let riding drive the cups home, but they
will also tend to be misaligned as they settle. It used to be a more
common way of doing things, along with seating the cups using a rubber
mallet, but with fancier and flimsier materials being used these days, it
pays to get it done properly.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
_`\(,_ | by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo
(_)/ (_) | Emerson

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 22:01:33 -0500, Hank Wirtz
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:02:56 -0500, Hank Wirtz
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I doubt it's a matter of them doing it right or not.
>>> installed headset, the crown race and lower cup
>>> will press in further with riding.
>>
>> I disagree. These parts should and can be installed as far as they can
>> go. Nothing should change with riding.

>Disagree all you want. This advice came from the head mechanic at one of
>the most respected shops in the country.

Who, where?

JT

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[Mark Heiple]

In article <[email protected]>,
"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:45:13 -0400, Mark Heiple wrote:
>
> > Is it normal for headsets to loosen up? How loose is too loose? I've
> > read that in the long run a loose headset can be bad - ovalized head
> > tube and risk of the steerer breaking, so I don't want to let it go if
> > it is a problem.
>
> It is common, but not normal. If the new cups had not been properly
> pressed into the frame, or the crown race not completely seated against
> the fork crown, then as you ride these parts will work their way in to
> their proper position. But it is not an indicator of a job well done.
>
> It could also be simpler than that; just a locknut that was not
> sufficiently tightened. But in no event is this unavoidable, and it
> shouldn't be ignored. Take it back to the shop, and fuss at them to fix
> it right, and right away.

At what point do you give up and find another shop? I've been going to
this one for a few years, I like the owner and he personally does good
work. I think he recently hired a new crew, who I will be be generous
and say they are "inexperienced".

After overhauling my bike, the job seemed pretty sloppy - I had a list
of obvious minor and a couple major problems:

1) When I first picked it up, I saw the cable had pulled part way out of
the left shifter - the housing was torn and the wires were poking out.
Replaced the cable while I waited.

2) When they put the computer back on the handle bar, there wasn't
enough slack in the wire, so the bar would pull on it when turned.

3) front brake was adjusted with the release open - when closed, it was
locked tight on the rim.

4) loose headset. (twice now)

5) upper idler pulley fell out of the rear der toward the end of ride,
stranding me. Luckily I was only about 1 mile from home, but it could
have been much worse.

The computer and brake were simple to fix myself, but I think the
other's, especially the idler pulley, is a big deal.

My bottom bracket is a square taper, and from the comments I've read
here, there is a certain knack to correctly installing the cranks on it.
I don't see any evidence yet that there is anything wrong (but I don't
really know what to look for), but with the other problems, I question
now that I should believe it done right.

 

[jim beam]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:02:56 -0500, Hank Wirtz
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I doubt it's a matter of them doing it right or not.
>>> installed headset, the crown race and lower cup
>>> will press in further with riding.
>> I disagree. These parts should and can be installed as far as they can
>> go. Nothing should change with riding.
>>
>> JT
>>
>
> Disagree all you want. This advice came from the head mechanic at one of
> the most respected shops in the country. Maybe he was specifically talking
> about my model of headset (Stronglight A9), or of needle-bearing headsets,
> or of alloy headsets in steel frames, but he correctly predicted what would
> happen and how long it would take to settle in, and offered free help in
> dealing with it. That doesn't strike me as lack of skill or know-how.

no dude, it should not be "settling" in use. if it is, it wasn't set
correctly in the first place. there's no mystical difference between a
bike bearing installation and any other machine bearing installation.
they're supposed to be set once, and that's it. after that, if there's
a problem, it's the bearing, /not/ the install. there's no witchcraft
in cycling.

 

[jim beam]

Mark Heiple wrote:
> I had my bike overhauled a couple months ago (stripped down, new cables,
> new bearings in hubs, etc.) Turned out I also needed a new headset
> (threaded) because the bottom seal had failed and the bearings were shot.
>
> After a couple rides, the new headset loosened up quite a bit - I could
> feel a rattle in the handlebars going over bumps and when I lock the
> front brake and rock the bike forward I could feel it clicking.
>
> I took it back to the bike shop and they tightened it up, and all was
> well for a while. The last couple rides it feels like it is loosening
> up again. Not as bad as when it was first installed, but I can feel it
> click when I lock the front brake and rock it forward.
>
> Is it normal for headsets to loosen up? How loose is too loose? I've
> read that in the long run a loose headset can be bad - ovalized head
> tube and risk of the steerer breaking, so I don't want to let it go if
> it is a problem.
>
> Thanks.

find a better shop. there's a billion bike mechanics out there that'll
tell you they're the best, but few really know their stuff. properly
prepped and installed, no bearing should be behaving like this. the
head tube needs to be faced square, the steerer seat needs to be square,
and the bearing races need to be pressed solid against them. on
installation, the headset needs to be adjusted with a degree of pre-load
which will still allow free rotation, but retain sufficient elasticity
to ensure no looseness, and then you're set. if it works loose after
that, it wasn't done right.

 

[Chris Nelson]

Mark Heiple wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:45:13 -0400, Mark Heiple wrote:
> >
> > > Is it normal for headsets to loosen up? How loose is too loose? I've
> > > read that in the long run a loose headset can be bad - ovalized head
> > > tube and risk of the steerer breaking, so I don't want to let it go if
> > > it is a problem.
> >
> > It is common, but not normal. If the new cups had not been properly
> > pressed into the frame, or the crown race not completely seated against
> > the fork crown, then as you ride these parts will work their way in to
> > their proper position. But it is not an indicator of a job well done.
> >
> > It could also be simpler than that; just a locknut that was not
> > sufficiently tightened. But in no event is this unavoidable, and it
> > shouldn't be ignored. Take it back to the shop, and fuss at them to fix
> > it right, and right away.
>
> At what point do you give up and find another shop? I've been going to
> this one for a few years, I like the owner and he personally does good
> work. I think he recently hired a new crew, who I will be be generous
> and say they are "inexperienced".
>
> After overhauling my bike, the job seemed pretty sloppy - I had a list
> of obvious minor and a couple major problems:
>
> 1) When I first picked it up, I saw the cable had pulled part way out of
> the left shifter - the housing was torn and the wires were poking out.
> Replaced the cable while I waited.
>
> 2) When they put the computer back on the handle bar, there wasn't
> enough slack in the wire, so the bar would pull on it when turned.
>
> 3) front brake was adjusted with the release open - when closed, it was
> locked tight on the rim.
>
> 4) loose headset. (twice now)
>
> 5) upper idler pulley fell out of the rear der toward the end of ride,
> stranding me. Luckily I was only about 1 mile from home, but it could
> have been much worse.
>
> The computer and brake were simple to fix myself, but I think the
> other's, especially the idler pulley, is a big deal.
>
> My bottom bracket is a square taper, and from the comments I've read
> here, there is a certain knack to correctly installing the cranks on it.
> I don't see any evidence yet that there is anything wrong (but I don't
> really know what to look for), but with the other problems, I question
> now that I should believe it done right.

Sounds pretty bad, I had similar experiences with some of the shops
around me which led me to learn how to do alot of it myself. You don't
really save any money because you have to buy the tools, but its not
all that hard and kinda fun.

The problem with the shops around me is the same as you ran into, with
the owner and/or master mechanic being very good, but when you drop
your bike off, you might get the kid with little to no experience doing
the work.

If I were you I would try some of the other shops in your area to see
if you get better service.

Chris

 

[Hank Wirtz]

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 22:01:33 -0500, Hank Wirtz
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:02:56 -0500, Hank Wirtz
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I doubt it's a matter of them doing it right or not.
>>>> installed headset, the crown race and lower cup
>>>> will press in further with riding.
>>>
>>> I disagree. These parts should and can be installed as far as they
>>> can go. Nothing should change with riding.
>
>>Disagree all you want. This advice came from the head mechanic at one
>>of the most respected shops in the country.
>
> Who, where?
>

It was Scott at R&E in Seattle.

It may have been specific to my Stronglight A9, which has loose steel
races that sit on aluminum cups. Maybe I misunderstood what was settling
down. But like I say, he knew it would happen, he said it happened on
his own bike with an A9, and he also said once it settled, the headset's
lasted 20 years and counting, and to expect similar service from mine.

Don't take this as an opportunity to badmouth a good mechanic. If
anyone's talking out their ass here, it's one of us. You can guess who I
think it is.

 

[Nigel Cliffe]

Mark Heiple wrote:
> My bottom bracket is a square taper, and from the comments I've read
> here, there is a certain knack to correctly installing the cranks on
> it. I don't see any evidence yet that there is anything wrong

Glad the group didn't exist when I started . I've pulled square taper
cranks on and off BB's with no special training for 20 years. Those bikes
with traditional ball race bottom brackets are serviced annually, so some
cranks will have been off bikes 20 times (my newer bikes have cartridge
bearings, so this service job isn't needed). I own a simple unbranded crank
puller, bought about 20 years ago.

To remove, screw the puller outer piece into crank, then screw centre pin
down. When it hits the axle, put big spanner on end of pin nut, usually with
extension bar (3ft piece of old car exhaust pipe) to get enough force to
pull the crank off (often requires pushing extension pipe whilst jamming
crank against something else to prevent it turning).

To refit. If cranks have serrated nut/bolt for fixing, check it carefully to
see if new one required (I find they last several trips, though I think they
are theoretically a use-once item). Tiny amount of grease on sides of
taper. Push crank onto taper firmly. Put nut/bolt onto axle. Tighten to
either the makers quoted torque (if torque value is known), or, in absence
of a number, tighten to "a big heave on a 10 inch long spanner". Take for a
short ride. Recheck the tighness of the nuts after the short ride.


They've never come off when riding, never worked loose, never gone to "oval"
holes, never given any grief.



- Nigel



--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:01:06 -0400, Mark Heiple wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> At what point do you give up and find another shop?

For me, the answer has been to do my own work.

> I've been going to
> this one for a few years, I like the owner and he personally does good
> work. I think he recently hired a new crew, who I will be be generous
> and say they are "inexperienced".

Maybe he should be made aware of this list of problems.

> 1) When I first picked it up, I saw the cable had pulled part way out of
> the left shifter - the housing was torn and the wires were poking out.
> Replaced the cable while I waited.

Huh? You mean the end of the cable was sticking out of the shifter/brake
lever? That cable should have been adjusted properly before you saw it.
Not great.
>
> 2) When they put the computer back on the handle bar, there wasn't
> enough slack in the wire, so the bar would pull on it when turned.

Again, a novice mistake by the "mechanic".
>
> 3) front brake was adjusted with the release open - when closed, it was
> locked tight on the rim.

This can happen.... That is, I've done that, too. Easy to fix, though.
>
> 4) loose headset. (twice now)
>
> 5) upper idler pulley fell out of the rear der toward the end of ride,
> stranding me. Luckily I was only about 1 mile from home, but it could
> have been much worse.

Shessh. Someone forgot to tighten down the bolt that holds the pulley
on. Not good. Again, an indicator of sloppy work. Seems like the
trained monkeys the owner has doing the wrenching are learning on the job.
On your bike...

> My bottom bracket is a square taper, and from the comments I've read
> here, there is a certain knack to correctly installing the cranks on it.
> I don't see any evidence yet that there is anything wrong (but I don't
> really know what to look for),

If you feel any play in the cranks, this would be bad. It is very easy to
ruin a crank arm by riding it once it works loose. But if they feel
tight, no motion relative to each other, then they are probably all right.
It goes from no problem to ruined rather dramatically, though. You might
go back to the owner and ask him, personally, to check the tightness of
the bolts.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
_`\(,_ | by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo
(_)/ (_) | Emerson