Lost at Night

Paul Rooney said:

John Laird said:

Average is unambiguous. It is "mean" that should be qualified, although arithmetic is normally the
default.

Average is ambiguous - it includes median and mode, as well as mean.

You and me are going to be round the back of the bike sheds at 4 o'clock!

The first definition of "average" in my Chambers dictionary is "arithmetic mean". It goes on to
mention median and modality with the qualification of "loosely". Median and mode are not generally
associated with terms such as average and mean in a scientific context. Mean can be qualified with
harmonic or geometric, with arithmetic as the implied default in most subject areas.

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John Laird said:

Paul Rooney said:

John Laird said:

Average is unambiguous. It is "mean" that should be qualified, although arithmetic is normally
the default.

Average is ambiguous - it includes median and mode, as well as mean.

You and me are going to be round the back of the bike sheds at 4 o'clock!

The first definition of "average" in my Chambers dictionary is "arithmetic mean". It goes on to
mention median and modality with the qualification of "loosely". Median and mode are not generally
associated with terms such as average and mean in a scientific context. Mean can be qualified with
harmonic or geometric, with arithmetic as the implied default in most subject areas.

Mean, mode and median are all taught (as types of average) to kids doing GCSE maths nowadays.
Whether they remember them is another matter. All three are also given as types of average in all
the maths text books we have in the house.

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Paul Rooney said:

Mean, mode and median are all taught (as types of average) to kids doing GCSE maths nowadays.
Whether they remember them is another matter. All three are also given as types of average in all
the maths text books we have in the house.

My 15 year old lad says otherwise, and he's supposed to be heading for A/A* in his GCSE Maths next
year ;-) I don't doubt there are books or schools where the meaning of the terms have been abused,
though. B****y academics !

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John Laird said:

Paul Rooney said:

Mean, mode and median are all taught (as types of average) to kids doing GCSE maths nowadays.
Whether they remember them is another matter. All three are also given as types of average in all
the maths text books we have in the house.

My 15 year old lad says otherwise, and he's supposed to be heading for A/A* in his GCSE Maths next
year ;-) I don't doubt there are books or schools where the meaning of the terms have been abused,
though. B****y academics !

Try bbc.co.ukcentraltendencyrev2.shtmlOpen ↗

for starters. Better get the lad to sit in!

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On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:40:48 +0000, Gordon <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I agree. I have no problem with mental arithmetic, but I don't see why that should be true for
others. I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of maths graduates who don't know when the correct
use is 'Bill & me' or 'Bill & I', to use a fairly basic example from a different subject. At
school - and since then - I realised that some maths people had almost no knowledge whatever of
the world outside their subjects.

All this reinforces my belief that much of today's University intake is unsuitable material!

I was just rubbing my eyes - they get a bit tired with lenses in all day - and I read that as a
comment about the universe being made of unstable material - in which case, I agree!

Quoted message said:

The average between the 6 numbers which Chris quoted is a simple calculation, which any school
leaver should be able to work out. Why it has been complicated by talking about arithmetic mean etc
is beyond me. ;-)

Because today's kids know better than to talk about 2.4 children etc.!

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"Paul Rooney" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Different exam boards may differ slightly.

National curriculum, Andy - it's the law (no kidding!).

But only for state schools I believe. Independent schools don't have to follow it. And I know for
science certain publishers do different revision guides for different exam boards so I presume there
must be differences. No, I'm not a teacher, I just work in a school as a science technician...nice
holidays, and lots of interesting stuff to play with...

C L Imber said:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:37:08 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris Malcolm) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Last year I taught a class of about 50 highly selected postgrads, probably none with first degrees
below good 2nd class hons, and half with first class hons BSc. No specific maths skills required,
but basic numeracy expected.

In the course of working through a problem in small groups I asked the class to solve a problem in
mental arithmetic. What is the average of four ones and two twos. I estimate that only about 20%
of the class were able to get the answer. The most popular answer was 1.5. Some thought the answer
was two. Some thought it was one. Some worked out correctly that it was 8/6 but couldn't get
further than that without a calculator.

I think I'd better not say any more. I'm supposed to keep an eye on my blood pressure.

Quoted message said:

What did you specify as the average you wanted: arithmetic mean, geometric mean, median or mode?

If they took me to mean anything other than the usual unqualified default of arithmetic mean then
even more of them were wrong than I supposed; the context of the problem required arithmetic mean,
although a case could have been argued for geometric.

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IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

In the course of working through a problem in small groups I asked the class to solve a problem in
mental arithmetic. What is the average of four ones and two twos. I estimate that only about 20%
of the class were able to get the answer. The most popular answer was 1.5. Some thought the answer
was two. Some thought it was one. Some worked out correctly that it was 8/6 but couldn't get
further than that without a calculator.

What's your problem? You say the students were postgrads, but you don't say what their subjects
were. It is not necessary, for example, for theologians or linguists to be able to do mental
arithmatic... And before you tell me how basic the above problem is, let me save you the bother by
telling you that I wouldn't be able to do it either, and I too am a graduate.
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Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the course of working through a problem in small groups I asked the class to solve a problem
in mental arithmetic. What is the average of four ones and two twos. I estimate that only about
20% of the class were able to get the answer. The most popular answer was 1.5. Some thought the
answer was two. Some thought it was one. Some worked out correctly that it was 8/6 but couldn't
get further than that without a calculator.

Quoted message said:

What's your problem? You say the students were postgrads, but you don't say what their subjects
were. It is not necessary, for example, for theologians or linguists to be able to do mental
arithmatic...

I did say they were BScs -- Bachelors of *science*. That means all of them had to have some kind of
school maths qualification for first degree entry, even though they may have studied none at
university. In fact I estimate at least half of them had some kind of first year university maths
course, such as "maths for computer scientists" or "statistics for psychologists".

They had also chosen to study a course which says that "basic mathematical skills are assumed".

Quoted message said:

And before you tell me how basic the above problem is, let me save you the bother by telling you
that I wouldn't be able to do it either, and I too am a graduate.

But not, I hope, a science graduate?
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Paul Rooney" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mean, mode and median are all taught (as types of average) to kids doing GCSE maths nowadays.
Whether they remember them is another matter. All three are also given as types of average in
all the maths text books we have in the house.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My 15 year old lad says otherwise, and he's supposed to be heading for

A/A*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in his GCSE Maths next year ;-) I don't doubt there are books or schools where the meaning of the
terms have been abused, though. B****y

academics !

Different exam boards may differ slightly.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Average is unambiguous. It is "mean" that should be qualified, although arithmetic is normally
the default.

Average is ambiguous - it includes median and mode, as well as mean.

Median? Mode? You wot??
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mean, mode and median are all taught (as types of average) to kids doing GCSE maths nowadays.
Whether they remember them is another matter. All three are also given as types of average in all
the maths text books we have in the house.

My 15 year old lad says otherwise, and he's supposed to be heading for A/A* in his GCSE Maths next
year ;-)

Much to my surprise my 15 yr old lad *does* know what all those things are... which is more than I
do. No! I am *not* asking for maths lessons!
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"Paul Rooney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Because today's kids know better than to talk about 2.4 children etc.!

I think that apostrophe is unnecessary.

Hic.

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"Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What's your problem? You say the students were postgrads, but you don't say what their subjects
were. It is not necessary, for example, for theologians or linguists to be able to do mental
arithmatic... And before you tell me how basic the above problem is, let me save you the bother by
telling you that I wouldn't be able to do it either, and I too am a graduate.

Reminds me of a common piece of university graffiti scrawled in many a toilet cubicle above the
toilet roll saying "Arts degree. Please take". I myself spent four years at polytechnic (remember
them?) without getting any kind of degree whatsoever. Had a good time though.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

I too am a graduate.

But not, I hope, a science graduate?

We-e-ell, I got an 'ology... ;-)
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because today's kids know better than to talk about 2.4 children etc.!

I think that apostrophe is unnecessary.

Are you sure, isn't it the possesive - 'kids of today' ?

David

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

"Paul Rooney" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Because today's kids know better than to talk about 2.4 children etc.!

I think that apostrophe is unnecessary.

Hic.

P'raps you do. But yer wrong. <ducks>
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Roger Chapman said:

Quoted message said:

That's what maps are for. You enter waypoints and routes into the GPSR after you've decided what
map pages to look at, not before.

And if you do that (as Paul would do) before setting out then in order to do something unplanned
it would be necessary to input further waypoints manually. That is something I would certainly
never waste my time doing and I don't think Paul would either.

No, not unless it was absolutely vital, like if I was lost in thick fog for example.

In the last few years, since I started using OziExplorer, I can only recall entering two waypoints
manually. One was with Roy Hill, to locate a small stone circle which was somewhere on the slope
below us but we just couldn't see it (too many other rocks around). The other was quite recently on
Carreg Cadno, to help me identify which of the many crags was actually the summit (I thought I'd
recognise it, but approaching from a different angle I didn't).

Paul
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[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

, and I too am a graduate.

Wow ! I've walked with a graduate and me with only 6 - "O" levels and whatever I've picked up in
67 years.

You'll have to tell me more some time Fran :-)

I went to university in me mid 20s 'cos I didn't have the required wossnames when I left school. Oh,
and I only just passed. And I too had a grand total of 6 'O' Levels when I left skule - I did
another one when I were 24, followed by me one an' only 'A' Level. I've picked up more
qualifications and know-how since I left skule than I ever did while I was there :-)
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[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Median? Mode? You wot??

Stick a Co... in front and I'll understand. :->

<BG>
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