Lost at Night

The message <[email hidden]>
from C L Imber <[email hidden]> contains these words:

snip

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They define summer conditions as, "any time of year when there is no likelihood of encountering
snow or ice".

Then they should say what the mean.

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Given that in this country a mid winter's night (21 Dec) can be warmer than a mid summer's night
(21 June) summer conditions can mean a wide variety of conditions. Snow and ice is not considered
summer conditions. It seems quite logical - but then again, I've had the definition explained to
me. Perhaps I should have been clearer in my explanation to this group, and for that I offer an
apology.

Thanks for the apology. Being clear is not always easy but essential if you don't want those who
most need advice to misunderstand it. However I don't accept that just because an exceptionally warm
winter night might be no colder than an exceptionally cold summer night you should make the same
plans for the preceding day. If nothing else getting benighted is much more likely as well as a much
more serious problem when you only have 8 hours daylight to play with and have wasted half of that
before you even set out.

The is a radio ad. (voiceover by Quentin Wilson) to the effect that all generalizations are false
including that one and your equipment list has a similar problem. Treat it as a pick and mix list
according to circumstances and a sensible person will not go far wrong. Treat it as gospel and carry
a load of unnecessary tat, and maybe miss something important (a GPS perhaps) just because it isn't
on the list.

snip

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The advice you quoted appears to be intended for general application. My response suggested it
was over the top for able bodied adults and possibly teenagers as well. It might be different
these days but when I was a teenager it was usually taken to mean 13 - 19 years old.

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I never used the word teenager. I used the term "young people".

No, but | did in the remark you followed up.

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Fortunately, 11 year olds usually do as they are told. In a class of 15 year olds, if you tell
them to take hat and gloves, there will be one or two who don't because they "think they won't
need them".

Do a kit check first and exclude those who won't take basic advice. If you can't get them to
follow such simple instructions how can you hope to control them in potentially dangerous
conditions in the hills? You won't be able to physically restrain them and neither will you be
able to focus your exclusive attention on a minority of trouble makers/morons.

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How long do you think it would take to check the kit of a class of 30 children? And what about
that child who has all their kit - and then forgets their fleece on the minibus? Isn't it easier
to carry an extra fleece and spare hats and gloves.

It is news to me that a single person is allowed to take out a party of children 30 strong and I
personally believe that a party that large, however many helpers there are, is the wrong way to
introduce children to the hills. Kit inspections don't take much time if you are well organised
and similarly missing fleeces would not be left on a minibus (or a coach for your hypothetical
party of 31).

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Even in our group of 10 experienced hill walkers one ass left his waterproofs back at the centre
for a very wet and windy walk over Cadair Idris.

I trust the experience did him good. I have been soaked on Cader more than once without coming to
any great harm.

snip

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

C L Imber said:

(Chris Street) said:

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Which direction should the group go for help? North, South, East or West.

Irrelevant to point in hand. If you don't know which way to go with a rescue party you surely
don't want to be doing the same with someone developing hypothermia. You sit and wait till morning
in a survival bag.

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How do we find the tents? Should we have looked for them North, South, East or West?

Irrelevant to point in hand. If you don't know which way to go with a rescue party you surely
don't want to be doing the same with someone developing hypothermia. You sit and wait till morning
in a survival bag.

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Who was the casualty?

You really need an answer to that one?

Hypothermia develops when the core body temperature starts to drop. Cold hands my be an indication
of developing hypothermia, but is not an indication that hypothermia is developping.

I'm well aware of the causes and symptoms of hypothermia. What do the cold hands have to do in this
situation anyway? What other signs of hypothermia were shown?

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The MTT has the following to say about enforced nights out:

"Enforced nights out always feel longer and more miserable than ever anticipated. It is always
preferable to navigate off the hill unless injuries or equipment failure make this impractical.
Back at base, the group's contacts will be worried and may even initiate a rescue search, so
walkers should make every effort to evacuate themselves, unless this is genuinely felt to be a
riskier option than staying put."

So there you have it. Our instructor felt that staying put would be riskier than navigating
ourselves to safety.

If your instructor had hypothermia she was in no way competent to make any decisions regarding the
rest of the group.

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Had we stayed out, one or more of our party my well have developped hypothermia.

may well *have* ?

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The fact that we all returned safely to camp is a credit to our instructor and the cohesiveness of
our party.

not forgetting lady luck.

--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

C L Imber said:

Thank you for your heart-warming response.

I was beginning to think that either I, or everyone else in this group, had completely the wrong
idea of the purpose of the ML award and how people learn.

You don't learn by sticking your fingers in your ears either. Like it or not, there are people on
this group who have done ML training, and there are certainly people with a deal more "quality
mountian days" and camping experience. You don't seem able to listen to these people and consider
and possibly take on their advice. Can they *all* be wrong?

--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

C L Imber said:

I was beginning to think that either I, or everyone else in this group, had completely the wrong
idea of the purpose of the ML award and how people learn.

No, not really. I was just surprised that no-one had a GPS as an emergency back up, especially since
this was an exercise. Learning is all very well, but sometimes things can go wrong, and when they
do, having such a powerful device at your disposal is not to be sniffed at, particularly if you need
to provide a precise grid ref for a casualty.

It seems to me that not even taking a GPS (the leader) indicates a stubborn belief in the myth that
map and compass are all powerful and a GPS is therefore unnecessary.

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.htmlOpen ↗
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

C L Imber said:

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

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it's so insidious I wouldn't bet on my
>ability when alone to recognise it im myself.

So you'd recommend that we stop and lie down to get even colder?

No, you idiot. You snuggle up together and use each other's body heat. Without the windchill
factor this should be perfectly possible in a survival bag - that's what they're for and why
they're so called.

How do you prevent convention heat loss? Or do you suggest the warmer person stays in contact with
the cold ground while the warmer person snuggles up on top?

Convection heat loss is due to air movement. Heat loss to the ground is something else altogether.
You would minimise that by sitting/lying on your rucksack, which of course in your case was back at
camp, oh dear.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

C L Imber said:

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

it's so insidious I wouldn't bet on my
>ability when alone to recognise it im myself.

So you'd recommend that we stop and lie down to get even colder?

No, you idiot. You snuggle up together and use each other's body heat. Without the windchill
factor this should be perfectly possible in a survival bag - that's what they're for and why
they're so called.

How do you prevent convention heat loss?

you prevent the air from convecting away.

Which removes more heat - convection in still air or standing in a stream of cold air?

Or do you suggest the warmer

Quoted message said:

person stays in contact with the cold ground while the warmer person snuggles up on top?

--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

C L Imber said:

Quoted message said:

You quite clearly have bugger all knowledge of waht you are talking about by your statements and
your own admission. Please tell me how you get convective heat loss from the top of a closed
survival bag.

From the top by pools of water collecting - but the biggest convective loss is from the bottom.

Clue: hot air rises. You will not get convective losses to any great extend from the bottom of
an open bag.

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Now look at heat of vapourisation of water. The biggest source of heat loss is due to wind chill,
especially if the subject is wet. Removing wind chill by using *any* form of shelter is preferable
to staying out in the wind and rain. If you are going to then reply that you were exercising and
staying warm I'd just like to remind you of what shivering is for.

In fog there's little wind. We were all wearing water/windproofs top and bottom.

--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 20:15:27 GMT, [email hidden] (Chris

Street) said:

C L Imber said:

Paul Saunders said:

C L Imber wrote:

>> Have they taken out the 600m minimum height requirement then?
>
> I haven't seen that figure quoted - 600m might count as a substantial summit in some
> mountainous regions - but not in others.

I don't think it's a question of how substantial a summit is, but rather a measure of the type of
terrain and weather conditions that you get at that altitude. "Mountaincraft and Leadership"
makes a distinction between high and low ground at 500m, which equates with my experience. Most
ground above 500m tends to be wild, whereas lower ground is often farmed. There can be a
signifcant difference in weather conditions above 500m, not only a lower temperature but higher
wind speeds and often hill fog.

500m seems very arbitrary. I don't particularly like the book "Mountaincraft and Leadership". It
seems very dated to me.

Which edition are you looking at - ISTR there is more than one.

Third edition (1995), reprinted 2003.

Hillwalking by Steve Long, (2003) is much better.

Quoted message said:

the 600m figure was quoted by a friend doing the ML course, which was nnoying as his main walking
ground was the Peaks - mostly below 600m!

*Substantial summit* makes for more sense to me. 600m in the Highlands is not a substantial summit.

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What is important is that a range of terrain types and weather conditions are experienced as well
as group management - or at the very least, group experience.

"Chris Street" <[email hidden]> wrote

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I can't understand people's need to know exactly where they are to the nearest few metres under
normal everyday circumstances.

Five finger gully and the summit of the Ben in clag spring to mind.....

It's not hard to find the well worn tourist path off Ben Nevis without resorting to GPS from what
I remember. And a fresh 2 foot covering of snow isn't what I meant by normal everyday
circumstances. Anyhow, surely knowing that you only have to press a button to tell you where you
are which way to walk following a series of predetermined waypoints deadens the spirit of the
outdoors experience somewhat.

"Chris Street" <[email hidden]> wrote

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Quoted message said:

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>> Have they taken out the 600m minimum height requirement then?
>
> I haven't seen that figure quoted - 600m might count as a substantial summit in some
> mountainous regions - but not in others.

Quoted message said:

the 600m figure was quoted by a friend doing the ML course, which was nnoying as his main walking
ground was the Peaks - mostly below 600m!

I can remember 600m stated in the ML logbook my girlfriend had about 6 years ago.

C L Imber said:

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 02:22:44 GMT, [email hidden] (Chris Street) wrote:

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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:14:41 +0000, C L Imber <[email hidden]> wrote:

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If the instructor was suffering hypothermia, what she needed was a warm drink and warm dry
clothing, not to lie down in a plastic bag in some damp hollow. While the poly sack might keep
out the wind and rain it would make convection heat loss even worse.

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You quite clearly have bugger all knowledge of waht you are talking about by your statements and
your own admission. Please tell me how you get convective heat loss from the top of a closed
survival bag.

Quoted message said:

From the top by pools of water collecting - but the biggest convective loss is from the bottom.

That's not convection, that's conduction. I think you ought to consult a dictionary and then start
this discussion over again. You've confused everyone by using the wrong words. Doesn't give us a lot
of confidence in your understanding of the physics of heat loss and conservation.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

The message <[email hidden]>
from C L Imber <[email hidden]> contains these words:

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*Substantial summit* makes for more sense to me. 600m in the Highlands is not a substantial
summit.

So a candidate can get his qualification for swaning about on say the Chilterns and be seen as
competent to take his charges out on the Cuillins?

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NO! A range of experiences are required - and, believe it or not, common sense.

Common sense is a rare commodity. However the point I was trying to make is that a hill should be
judged on its merits. The fact that the Highlands has many high peaks in no way alters the merits
(or otherwise) of those of lesser absolute height. Location shouldn't make any difference if the
resulting qualification is of universal application.

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What person, however experienced, would contemplate walking the Cuillin with 30 nine year olds?

There you go again. You're not allowed to take 30 youngsters out on your own and the ML
qualification is not confined to ministering just to such young charges. I am sure most 15 year old
boys would enjoy the Cuillins experience and some might even live to tell the tale. :-)

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Oh yes and I take it from your remark that you have never tried Stac Pollaidh.

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You are quite correct.

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I'd be surprised if 40 walks up Stac Pollaidh would count as sufficient experience. But one or two
out of forty may very easily count.

But would 40 bimbles up Tryfan be any more use? The comparison is deliberate. Stac Polliagh takes
much the same effort and has a more difficult summit.

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

Simon Challands said:

Read the rest of the post, you're trying to separate out the context. TV and radio introduced
something new (and I could manage without the TV, but would miss the radio), and the changes in
society have made a car awkward to do without.

Fair enough.

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Walking is still the same activity, and done as an end in itself instead of as a means to an end,
which is what a car is.

Walking may still be the same activity, but I'm sure stone age man didn't navigate with map and
compass. These are all new technologies and over time newer ones tend to replace older ones.

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The only things that are necessary are your legs.

No they're not, not if you sit still all day and someone brings you your food.

I was talking about for going walking.

Fair enough.

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So? I never said a GPS wasn't any use, just that it's not necessary.

But is it not necessary simply because you have a compass? If you didn't have a compass, would it be
necessary then? I think this is the crux of the issue. People claim that a GPS is unnecessary only
because they have something else to navigate with, but one could equally argue that a compass is
unnecessary if you have a GPS.

Claims that a GPS is unnecessary are all very well provided your compass work doesn't fail you and
you don't get lost, but if you do get hopelessly lost in thick fog at night, does a GPS become
necessary then? I would argue that it does.

Of course, there are different degrees of "lost", ranging from "temporarily disoriented" to
"wandering blindly". Lesser degrees of "lost" don't require a GPS, but greater varieties may well
do. Much depends upon the consequencies of being lost and how you rate the importance of such
consequencies.

If being lost means that you stumble around blindly for an hour before locating your position, how
significant is that? If you're fit and strong and have time on your side then it may be little more
than an annoying inconvenience, but if you're unfit or exhausted at the end of a long walk, and at
risk of becoming benighted in a risky area, then it may have far more serious consequences,
especially if the weather is bad.

Most experienced walkers have probably had a few bad experiences and lived to tell the tale, and you
could argue that a GPS was unnecessary because you got out alive at the end of it, but personally
I'd rather not have the hassle of all that anymore. If being able to avoid stumbling around blindly
in the dark for an hour in the pouring rain qualifies a GPS as being necessary, then I'd class it as
that. It may not make the difference between life and death, but it can make the difference between
being snug and warm in my sleeping bag or being wet, cold and knackered in the dark. The necessity
of convenience if you like.

Of course, this all assumes that your conventional navigation fails, which may happen only rarely,
but in my case I use the GPS instead of the conventional navigation nowadays and I find it far more
efficient. The compass is still there in case the "unconventional" navigation fails, but that hasn't
happened yet.

Quoted message said:

Personally I very rarely even make use of a compass (different sitatuations to what this thread is
about, admittedly, because I don't go out on the fells at night),

But surely you've encountered hill fog?

Quoted message said:

so I would've thought it very unlikely that a GPS would be of any use to me.

A fair point. I rarely use my GPS for navigation in good conditions, it's primarily used to record a
track of my walks.

I did find it very useful on a recent walk though, in an unfamiliar area where there were three
possible routes through farmland and forestry, one a right of way, two not, so I marked all three
routes in my GPS before I left. My preferred route turned out to be across private land, the right
of way no longer seemed to exist on the ground, although a couple of marked stiles were in evidence
and the third route looked particularly overgrown and unused.

The route I did take was a newer route, clearly marked and easy to follow, but although it used
parts of the three routes in my GPS, parts of it were new and different and were not shown on the
map. Had I not pre-plotted the routes into my GPS there would have been some confusion in relating
the map to the new paths, but with the certainty of the positions of the waypoints in my GPS, I was
able to clearly relate the old to the new (even though I didn't bother to take the map with me).

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
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photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

The message <[email hidden]>
from C L Imber <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What person, however experienced, would contemplate walking the Cuillin with 30 nine year olds?

There you go again. You're not allowed to take 30 youngsters out on your own and the ML
qualification is not confined to ministering just to such young charges. I am sure most 15 year
old boys would enjoy the Cuillins experience and some might even live to tell the tale. :-)

Quoted message said:

Who said anything about "on your own"?

You did. See above.

Snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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I'd be surprised if 40 walks up Stac Pollaidh would count as sufficient experience. But one or
two out of forty may very easily count.

But would 40 bimbles up Tryfan be any more use?

Quoted message said:

I'd be very surprised if it was.

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Once again I say, "A range of experiences are required".

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In that range of experiences, a *substantial summit* will usually be climbed.

But still the vexed question - what is a "substantial summit"? This particular exchange was
initiated by you claiming that Stac Pollaidh (and numerous other Highland hills wouldn't count.

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

If there's any risk of hill fog or night nav I always pre-load at least a few useful waypoints
before I set out.

That's ok in a restricted area for a limited time but say you finally got round to visiting the Lake
District and because of the distance you decided to have a whole week there. Without an in-car
charger you are likely to run short of batteries and without a companion PC you would be limited to
what you had planned prior to setting out. No room for any real flexibility in what to do. (There
are 214 Wainwrights, numerous other even more insignificant summits and countless cols, path
junctions, etc. No way you could pre load more than a small proportion of those).

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

AndyP said:

"Phil Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote

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I have to disagree with that statement. This scenario will only result if

you

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aren't doing it correctly. Even in featureless terrain (even a snowfield

has

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some variation in the surface) it is possible to walk on a bearing to

within a

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degree or two. You don't wander along looking at the needle, the correct

method

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is to sight to a point walk to that point and repeat.

Yeh, but try to avoid using sheep cos they don't always stay in one place.

You should never be sighting further away than the distance art which you can tell what it is you
are aiming at :-) It can also be problematic when the ground goes up and down and you temporaily
lose sight of the aiming point. Of course you don't have to stick to a straight line, just so long
as your aiming points lie on a straight line you will be walking on the bearing.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Norman said:

Yes you are right about the method of using the compass. In all your walks how often do you use a
compass in reality.

Whenever I want to stay on a straight line I'll get the compass out. Though it is possible to use a
GPS for that task too using the pointer and keeping it steady. However it is a sight simpler to use
a compass to keep on a bearing. However using a combination of GPS and compass takes all the
guesswork out of pacing. Set a waypoint at the point you are walking from and use that as a GOTO
whilst you walk to your intended point using the compass. The GOTO will show how far you have walked
from your last position and hence when you have arrived at your new point. The compass is also
invaluable for checking the direction of paths where there is some doubt as to which one to take.

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Most people look at maps far more often and then it is to keep within rights of way,

Most of my walking these days is done off rights of way, oh the joys of open country in Scotland.

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looking for a route solution etc. The further out into the wilds the less accurate the OS maps are.

I've not noticed any great inaccuracies. The GPS waypionts I place using Ozi on scanned OS maps
usually fall where I would expect them and the recorded track matches up pretty well with the
hard features.

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I suppose it is everyone to their own choice. I admit there was at one time some degree of
satisfaction on arriving at a destination having been dependent on ones own ability at conventional
navigation. As you get older though it becomes a chore to perform and as Paul says using a GPS
permits a person to wander off course and to explore virtually anywhere without worrying too much
about getting back on the footpath. A useful addition is the ETA, sunset features which help in
preventing being stuck on a hillside after dark. Having had GPSs for years no-one will convince me
that they are inferior to the conventional approach to navigation. A GPS is a modern technological
wonder and requires skill in its usage. In poor visibility and at night it has no equal. Remember
that the US Military would not have spent billions of dollars installing it if a soldier could out
perform it in the field.

Given the average grunt's intelligence that is highly unlikely. :-)

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In 20 yrs time the compass will be as the slide rule or the logarithm book are to today, a bygone
curiosity handed to a grandchild.

Same with morse and signal flags.

I would like to think that I can use either compass or GPS to fall back on should the other fail.
Aircraft and vessels at sea have to have multiple redundancy but it gets a bit heavy when you have
to carry it.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

"Norman" <[email hidden]> wrote <snip> In 20 yrs time the compass will be

Quoted message said:

as the slide rule or the logarithm book are to today, a bygone curiosity handed to a grandchild.

Doubt it. A lot of enjoyment can be had using a map and compass. My central heating will NEVER
replace the warm glow of mi coal fire either. Anyway, marshmallows stick to the radiators.....

Graham

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] (Chris Malcolm) contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there's any risk of hill fog or night nav I always pre-load at least a few useful waypoints
before I set out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's ok in a restricted area for a limited time but say you finally got round to visiting the
Lake District and because of the distance you decided to have a whole week there. Without an in-
car charger you are likely to run short of batteries

Quoted message said:

Likely? You ought to be able to calculate how many you'll need for the use you want to make of the
GPSR. Note that you only need to have the thing switched on all the time if you want a continuous
tracklog. Do you really need a tracklog telling you that you've followed the track for 10km?
Lithium cells are particularly light and long lasting, but expensive, so can serve as emergency
reserve batteries.

I think Paul, like me, likes to have a track record which is as likely as not will not be
continuously along any recognised track. He also uses Nimh batteries which, apart from not lasting
very long, don't hold their charge very long either.

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and without a companion PC you would be limited to what you had planned prior to setting out.

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Rubbish. You *can* enter points manually you know. Are you so busy in the evenings in your tent or
B&B that you have no time to look at the map and enter some waypoints for the morrow?

You obviously have a real liking for tedious and unrewarding tasks. You also haven't paid any
attention to what Paul has said in the past about his GPS habits nor his lack of ready cash.

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No room for any real flexibility in what to do. (There are 214 Wainwrights, numerous other even
more insignificant summits and countless cols, path junctions, etc. No way you could pre load
more than a small proportion of those).

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That's what maps are for. You enter waypoints and routes into the GPSR after you've decided what
map pages to look at, not before.

And if you do that (as Paul would do) before setting out then in order to do something unplanned it
would be necessary to input further waypoints manually. That is something I would certainly never
waste my time doing and I don't think Paul would either.

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If the manual entering of waypoints horrifies you too much, then you can simply buy any suitable
portable PDA and do the map clicking stuff in that.

My annual expenditure already exceeds my net annual income so I am reluctant to dip further into my
savings unless I really have to. A PDA (whatever that might be) is not on my list of essential
equipment.

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

AndyP said:

I can remember spending a few hours in a plastic survival bag as a 14 yr old army cadet at
Sennybridge. As I remember It was bloody cold and I was a lot warmer as soon as we got up and
started walking.

Thank you, Andy, for writing something sensible. I've spent a few nights out in the orange bag, and
it's vile. Practically worthless IMHO.

If you haven't spent a night out in one of those ridiculous orange sacks, and still think that
they're going to save you if things go a bit wrong in bad conditions, then I suggest that you try it
somewhere nice and safe (and warm) first! And don't go cheating with blankets, sleeping bags, warm
cups of tea and supplies of torrid sensuous nymphs.

Martin.