Low carb diet and heart disease...



K

Katra

Guest
For the up-to-date-on-nutrition challenged, I offer the following links:

http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/riskfactors/a/Atkinsvind.htm

http://thecompounder.com/AtkinsVindicated.html

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7400/1166-h

There are far more available for those that want to google it...

Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing people. I've known several
myself that went on that type of diet at the recommendation of their personal physicians that
ended up having to go on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes DID
NOT WORK!!!

is it so hard to believe that the original theories were just plain wrong? And the current crop of
Doctors were trained that way, so they are going to continue to promote it. Sad.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_diets020719.html

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/health/edell/111703_he_badcarbs.html

I like this link as it stresses starch carbs vs. "green" carbs. One reason I prefer the greenwich
diet over Atkins. I'm not a high fat fan, (since calories still count) but eggs only have 5 grams
each and you need up to 25 grams per day to maintain skin health. Eggs are also very rich in trace
minerals which are difficult to get in a regular diet.

http://www.familyhaven.com/health/mineral.html

The thing with plants and trace minerals is if they are lacking in the soil, they will NOT be in the
food that is supposed to have them according to most nutritional charts. The vast majority of
commercial farming is now done in depleted soils using commercial fertilizers that contain just
enough nutrients to get the plants to grow! This is the major reason why organic veggies really are
more nutritious than non-organic.

http://www.mofga.org/food.html

Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy. It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did it.
At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...

K.

--
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>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<[email protected]>,,<
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A

Anthony

Guest
"Katra" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:KatraMungBean-

> Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy. It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did
> it. At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
>
Yup, for me reduced carbs equalled reduced weight, body fat, (now < 12%), bp, improved cholesterol,
triglycerides, reduced meds. Started to eat this way quite a while ago. Now don't weigh or measure
anything, just avoid starchy vegetables, (potatoes, flour, rice, peas etc.), and sugar including
the sugar in fruit. Lots of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, green veg, butter, oil; easy diet to follow,
good results.
 
D

Dan Abel

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Katra
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing people. I've known several
> myself that went on that type of diet at the recommendation of their personal physicians that
> ended up having to go on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes DID
> NOT WORK!!!

In my opinion, any time you see the word "high" in front of a food type that has lots of calories,
you are talking about a diet for those who need to gain weight. High carb, high fat and high protein
diets are not going to work (although sometimes a high protein diet can mess you up enough that you
lose weight, but I'd rather go on statins first) if you are looking to lose weight.

For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a person depends more on
psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some variation works well for you, that's great. That
doesn't mean it will work well for someone else.

Personally, I lose weight by consciously eating more food. At first I thought that a little self-
control in eating less would work. I found that I *had* no self-control. Attempting to eat less just
meant that I ate more of the high calorie stuff. So, I switched to eating more. I would fill my
plate with plain vegies and have extra servings of salad. By filling my stomach like this, I could
more easily resist the temptation to take another serving of the high calorie main dish.

--
Dan Abel Sonoma State University AIS [email protected]
 
D

David

Guest
"Anthony" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:D[email protected]...
>
> "Katra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:KatraMungBean-
>
> > Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy. It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did
> > it. At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
> >
> Yup, for me reduced carbs equalled reduced weight, body fat, (now < 12%), bp, improved
> cholesterol, triglycerides, reduced meds. Started to eat
this
> way quite a while ago. Now don't weigh or measure anything, just avoid starchy vegetables,
> (potatoes, flour, rice, peas etc.), and sugar
including
> the sugar in fruit. Lots of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, green veg, butter, oil; easy diet to follow,
> good results.

So you don't eat any bread, rice or fruit? How can that in any way be easy to follow?
 
N

Nexis

Guest
"Katra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> For the up-to-date-on-nutrition challenged, I offer the following links:
>
> http://heartdisease.about.com/cs/riskfactors/a/Atkinsvind.htm
>
> http://thecompounder.com/AtkinsVindicated.html
>
> http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7400/1166-h
>
> There are far more available for those that want to google it...
>
> Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing people. I've known several
> myself that went on that type of diet at the recommendation of their personal physicians that
> ended up having to go on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes DID
> NOT WORK!!!
>
> is it so hard to believe that the original theories were just plain wrong? And the current crop of
> Doctors were trained that way, so they are going to continue to promote it. Sad.
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_diets020719.html
>
> http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/health/edell/111703_he_badcarbs.html
>
> I like this link as it stresses starch carbs vs. "green" carbs. One reason I prefer the greenwich
> diet over Atkins. I'm not a high fat fan, (since calories still count) but eggs only have 5 grams
> each and you need up to 25 grams per day to maintain skin health. Eggs are also very rich in trace
> minerals which are difficult to get in a regular diet.
>
> http://www.familyhaven.com/health/mineral.html
>
> The thing with plants and trace minerals is if they are lacking in the soil, they will NOT be in
> the food that is supposed to have them according to most nutritional charts. The vast majority of
> commercial farming is now done in depleted soils using commercial fertilizers that contain just
> enough nutrients to get the plants to grow! This is the major reason why organic veggies really
> are more nutritious than non-organic.
>
> http://www.mofga.org/food.html
>
> Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy. It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did
> it. At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
>
> K.
>

Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as individuals they need different
things. What works for one person will not work for every person...it's that simple. In order to
have the best health you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works for Bill, Bob
and Amanda.

kimberly
 
C

Carmen

Guest
--WebTV-Mail-13110-2373
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

Thanks for these articles. I am doing the no bread, potatoes ....starchy carbs. But havent lost this
month. Lost 40 now Im struggling. :( Carmen

--WebTV-Mail-13110-2373 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type:
Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

<html> <bgsound src="http://www.wtv-zone.com/799_5302/Valentine/howdeeplove.mid" autostart="true"loop="-
1"></html

--WebTV-Mail-13110-2373--
 
D

Default User

Guest
Dan Abel wrote:

> For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a person depends more on
> psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some variation works well for you, that's great. That
> doesn't mean it will work well for someone else.

I agree with that strongly. The business with medical studies is extremely tricky. Basically what
they do is amass reams of anecdotal evidence and sort through looking for correlations. That's
because it's difficult to perform controlled experiments on people. You can't get groups of
children, feed them different diets over a span of years, and see which group has the higher
incidence of heart disease. They aren't lab animals. You can do that with medication to a certain
extent, but not so much with diet. You can have the short term studies, "eat oatmeal and your
cholesterol goes down or maybe it doesn't."

Studies in the past seemed to show high fat diets to be deterimental to health. Newer studies seem
to show high carbs may be. Does that mean the old studies were wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
these are wrong. Perhaps these are right. Latching on to any study and saying, "OK, we have the
truth now!" is probably misguided at best.

Studies do seem to show that being overweight is a major contributor to heart disease, no matter how
you got there.

You lose weight by reducing caloric intake. What means you use is highly individual. As I said in a
previous message, the sorry fact is that most people who lose weight by whatever means gain it back,
most within a relatively short period of time. It ain't easy.

Brian Rodenborn
 
K

Katra

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"Anthony" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Katra" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:KatraMungBean-
>
> > Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy. It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally did
> > it. At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
> >
> Yup, for me reduced carbs equalled reduced weight, body fat, (now < 12%), bp, improved
> cholesterol, triglycerides, reduced meds. Started to eat this way quite a while ago. Now don't
> weigh or measure anything, just avoid starchy vegetables, (potatoes, flour, rice, peas etc.), and
> sugar including the sugar in fruit. Lots of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, green veg, butter, oil; easy
> diet to follow, good results.
>
>

Easy to anyone but a starchaholic. <G> But I agree, it's easier than most diets, and there is more
food that you CAN eat than you cannot!

And it works for the vast majority.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<[email protected]>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
 
K

Katra

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Dan Abel) wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Katra
> <[email protected]l.net> wrote:
>
>
> > Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing people. I've known several
> > myself that went on that type of diet at the recommendation of their personal physicians that
> > ended up having to go on statins (which are very hard on the liver) because the diet changes DID
> > NOT WORK!!!
>
>
> In my opinion, any time you see the word "high" in front of a food type that has lots of calories,
> you are talking about a diet for those who need to gain weight. High carb, high fat and high
> protein diets are not going to work (although sometimes a high protein diet can mess you up enough
> that you lose weight, but I'd rather go on statins first) if you are looking to lose weight.
>
>
> For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a person depends more on
> psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some variation works well for you, that's great. That
> doesn't mean it will work well for someone else.
>
>
> Personally, I lose weight by consciously eating more food. At first I thought that a little self-
> control in eating less would work. I found that I *had* no self-control. Attempting to eat less
> just meant that I ate more of the high calorie stuff. So, I switched to eating more. I would fill
> my plate with plain vegies and have extra servings of salad. By filling my stomach like this, I
> could more easily resist the temptation to take another serving of the high calorie main dish.
>
> --
> Dan Abel Sonoma State University

Hi fiber diet... :) Similar to what I do with the Greenwhich diet. It's still low carb!

Then there is the whole concept of "negative calorie foods". Digestion and metabolic processes DO
burn calories, so foods that are low in calories and high in fiber and water, (and are very filling)
tend to burn more calories to digest and process than they have in them.

Lettuce, Bok Choy, Cabbage (and related veggies) are good "bulk" fillers for the tummy.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<[email protected]>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
 
K

Katra

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, "Nexis" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as individuals they need
> different things. What works for one person will not work for every person...it's that simple. In
> order to have the best health you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works for
> Bill, Bob and Amanda.
>
> kimberly
>

Excellent point... ;-) Just get checked out. Many grossly obese people have insulin resistance. It's
as common as dirt. Low carbing seems to be the easiest answer to that problem.

Find a decent family doc or internest that will work with you for the best results!

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<[email protected]>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
 
P

Peter Aitken

Guest
"Nexis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as individuals they need
> different things. What works for one person will not work for every person...it's that simple.
> In order to have the best health you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works
> for Bill,
Bob
> and Amanda.
>
> kimberly
>

True as far as it goes, but one must realize that some things work for a lot of people, some work
for a few people, and some work for nobody. By investigating you can determine what will probably
work for you, what might work for you, and what will not work for you or anyone.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the **** from my email address before using.
 
R

Robert Klute

Guest
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:17:18 GMT, Default User
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Studies in the past seemed to show high fat diets to be deterimental to health. Newer studies seem
>to show high carbs may be. Does that mean the old studies were wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
>these are wrong. Perhaps these are right. Latching on to any study and saying, "OK, we have the
>truth now!" is probably misguided at best.

The problem with any epidemiological study is that you are looking for correlations, not causes.
Sometimes you can wind up with the wrong conclusions if you do your groupings wrong.

For example, you might see that people who ate meat and potatoes, meat and pasta, meat and rice
tended weight problems, while those who ate lots of vegetables and beans didn't. You might conclude
that meat in the diet was the problem, whereas it might be the starches or the lack of vegetables.

>
>Studies do seem to show that being overweight is a major contributor to heart disease, no matter
>how you got there.

The proper word should be correlation. Epidemiological studies can only show correlations.

>You lose weight by reducing caloric intake. What means you use is highly individual. As I said in a
>previous message, the sorry fact is that most people who lose weight by whatever means gain it
>back, most within a relatively short period of time. It ain't easy.

Yes, the 'trick' is finding a diet that you can continue to follow in 'maintenance' mode.
 
A

Anthony

Guest
"david" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> So you don't eat any bread, rice or fruit? How can that in any way be easy to follow?
>
Nor any potatoes, cakes or croissants either. Of course I'd like to eat all of these things but it's
a trade-off between satisfaction of my gourmand tendencies and staying in reasonable shape. Giving
up a whole lot of carbs is easier for me than one of those low fat-high carb diets; it has worked in
the sense that the results are good and I'm able to stick with it. YMMV
 
K

Katra

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
"david" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Anthony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:D[email protected]...
> >
> > "Katra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:KatraMungBean-
> >
> > > Eggs are your freind, bread is your enemy. It's hard to give it up. Very hard, but i finally
> > > did it. At least most of the time. <G> It's been relegated to "treat" status...
> > >
> > Yup, for me reduced carbs equalled reduced weight, body fat, (now < 12%), bp, improved
> > cholesterol, triglycerides, reduced meds. Started to eat
> this
> > way quite a while ago. Now don't weigh or measure anything, just avoid starchy vegetables,
> > (potatoes, flour, rice, peas etc.), and sugar
> including
> > the sugar in fruit. Lots of meat, fish, eggs, cheese, green veg, butter, oil; easy diet to
> > follow, good results.
>
> So you don't eat any bread, rice or fruit? How can that in any way be easy to follow?
>
>

Depends on the individual.....

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<[email protected]>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
 
K

Katra

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Default User <[email protected]> wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> > For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a person depends more on
> > psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some variation works well for you, that's great.
> > That doesn't mean it will work well for someone else.
>
>
> I agree with that strongly. The business with medical studies is extremely tricky. Basically what
> they do is amass reams of anecdotal evidence and sort through looking for correlations. That's
> because it's difficult to perform controlled experiments on people. You can't get groups of
> children, feed them different diets over a span of years, and see which group has the higher
> incidence of heart disease. They aren't lab animals. You can do that with medication to a certain
> extent, but not so much with diet. You can have the short term studies, "eat oatmeal and your
> cholesterol goes down or maybe it doesn't."
>
> Studies in the past seemed to show high fat diets to be deterimental to health. Newer studies seem
> to show high carbs may be. Does that mean the old studies were wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
> these are wrong. Perhaps these are right. Latching on to any study and saying, "OK, we have the
> truth now!" is probably misguided at best.

Gods that is SO true! :) Well stated. <applause>

>
> Studies do seem to show that being overweight is a major contributor to heart disease, no matter
> how you got there.
>
> You lose weight by reducing caloric intake. What means you use is highly individual. As I said in
> a previous message, the sorry fact is that most people who lose weight by whatever means gain it
> back, most within a relatively short period of time. It ain't easy.

"Diets" don't work. Period. It's a matter of changing lifestyles, permanently. Eat less, move more.
The equation is simple.

But the fact remains that in order for your body to function (on it's main fuel of glucose),
protien is a far less efficient fuel than simple carbs. Hence the huge number of folks flocking to
low carb diets.

If you can lose weight on carbs, then KEEP it off, congrats. :)

>
>
>
> Brian Rodenborn

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<[email protected]>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
 
N

Nexis

Guest
"Katra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Nexis" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Some day people will figure out that people are individuals, and as individuals they need
> > different things. What works for one person will
not
> > work for every person...it's that simple. In order to have the best
health
> > you can, you have to find what works for *you*. Not what works for Bill,
Bob
> > and Amanda.
> >
> > kimberly
> >
>
> Excellent point... ;-) Just get checked out. Many grossly obese people have insulin resistance.
> It's as common as dirt. Low carbing seems to be the easiest answer to that problem.
>
> Find a decent family doc or internest that will work with you for the best results!
>
> K.
>

Actually, you don't have to be overweight to have insulin resistance. There are many things that are
believed to be precursors, including polycystic ovarian syndrome. In most cases, low carbing isn't
enough and may not help. The key is less about the number of carbs than the type. Highly processed
flour and sugar based foods are the worst. I honestly believe the abundance of them available is at
least partially to blame for the increase in many health problems, not the least of which is Type II
diabetes, and insulin resistance. I would encourage anyone who is experiencing any of the following
to be checked for insulin resistance and possibly diabetes: frequent bouts of exhaustion frequent
headaches lack of energy frequent thirst dry or pasty feeling mouth lower back pain (can be a sign
of kidney problems) blurred vision (does *not* need to be constant; can be intermittent) tingling in
hands or feet- can be as little as a toe, or the whole appendage frequent urge to urinate feeling
dizzy/lightheaded after an extended period between meals

kimberly
 
P

Peter Aitken

Guest
"Default User" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> > For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a
person
> > depends more on psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some variation works well for you,
> > that's great. That doesn't mean it will work well for someone else.
>
>
> I agree with that strongly. The business with medical studies is extremely tricky. Basically what
> they do is amass reams of anecdotal evidence and sort through looking for correlations. That's
> because it's difficult to perform controlled experiments on people. You can't get groups of
> children, feed them different diets over a span of years, and see which group has the higher
> incidence of heart disease. They aren't lab animals. You can do that with medication to a certain
> extent, but not so much with diet. You can have the short term studies, "eat oatmeal and your
> cholesterol goes down or maybe it doesn't."
>

Medical studies are *not* anecdotal. You are misusing the word. Many do in fact use post-hoc
analysis where you do not tell people what to eat but rather ask them to keep track of what they eat
and then relate that to later measures of health.

> Studies in the past seemed to show high fat diets to be deterimental to health. Newer studies seem
> to show high carbs may be. Does that mean the old studies were wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
> these are wrong. Perhaps these are right. Latching on to any study and saying, "OK, we have the
> truth now!" is probably misguided at best.
>

Most people overlook the fact that the studies that showed high-fat diets to be unhealth did not
limit carbs in any way. There's a lot of evidence that the amount of carbs you eat has a big effect
on what your body does with the fats in your diet and whether or not they impact your health.

The Atkins diet is often misrepresented as "eat all you want of any high-fat food." This is not
true. Neither is the claim that Atkins is a low-vegetable diet. Atkins includes tons of vegetables
with a few high-carb ones (potatoes, carrots, corn, for example) restricted. Atkins does not claim
to be the only effective diet. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who have the "fat is bad"
mantra permanently embedded in their small brains that they refuse to face the evidence.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the **** from my email address before using.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the **** from my email address before using.
 
P

Peter Aitken

Guest
"Katra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Dan Abel) wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
Katra
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Thing is, new evidence shows how a low fat, high carb diet is killing people. I've known
> > > several myself that went on that type of diet at
the
> > > recommendation of their personal physicians that ended up having to go on statins (which are
> > > very hard on the liver) because the diet changes DID NOT WORK!!!
> >
> >
> > In my opinion, any time you see the word "high" in front of a food type that has lots of
> > calories, you are talking about a diet for those who
need
> > to gain weight. High carb, high fat and high protein diets are not
going
> > to work (although sometimes a high protein diet can mess you up enough that you lose weight, but
> > I'd rather go on statins first) if you are looking to lose weight.
> >
> >
> > For my second opinion, I think that whether a diet works well for a
person
> > depends more on psychology than anything else. If Atkins or some variation works well for you,
> > that's great. That doesn't mean it will work well for someone else.
> >
> >
> > Personally, I lose weight by consciously eating more food. At first I thought that a little self-
> > control in eating less would work. I found that I *had* no self-control. Attempting to eat less
> > just meant that I ate more of the high calorie stuff. So, I switched to eating more. I would
> > fill my plate with plain vegies and have extra servings of salad. By filling my stomach like
> > this, I could more easily resist the
temptation
> > to take another serving of the high calorie main dish.
> >
> > --
> > Dan Abel Sonoma State University
>
> Hi fiber diet... :) Similar to what I do with the Greenwhich diet. It's still low carb!
>
> Then there is the whole concept of "negative calorie foods". Digestion and metabolic processes DO
> burn calories, so foods that are low in calories and high in fiber and water, (and are very
> filling) tend to burn more calories to digest and process than they have in them.
>

High-fiber foods certainly have their advantages but requiring more calories to digest is not one of
them. In fact the definition of fiber is that it is *not* digested. One main advantage of fiber is
that it slows the digestion and absorption of carbs and thus levels out your insulin levels. The ads
that claim you will burn more calories digesting certain foods are pure BS.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the **** from my email address before using.