Low-glycemic-load diets: impact on obesity and chronic diseases



Jim Chinnis wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >
> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >>
> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
> >>
> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
> >> --
> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

> >
> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.

>
> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>
> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
> deficiencies and stupidity.
>
> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>
> So you recommend eating more meat?
>


Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
sources of protein?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
Jim Chinnis wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >
> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >>
> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
> >>
> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
> >> --
> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

> >
> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.

>
> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>
> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
> deficiencies and stupidity.
>
> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>
> So you recommend eating more meat?


Consider replacing meat with soy proteins (less methionine):

http://tinyurl.com/sagl


--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > > > If he's eating plenty of protein, how is hyperketonemia likely?
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is still possible if he is eating lots of fat (albeit unsaturated) and
> > > is
> > > hypocaloric (ie burning fat stores).

> >
> > The fat burning would stop however once the desired weight loss was
> > achieved.

>
> Then the fat will return.


My experiences of the last 3 months doesn't jibe with your statement.
During the summer I ate plenty of fresh fruits - watermelon & peaches
are my downfalls. I can (and did) eat entire 15 pound watermelons in
just 2-3 days. My weight loss stopped as summer hit full swing and
stayed plateaued until just this last week when I decided it was time to
lose the last 10 pounds.

The fat burning most certainly stopped and I did *not* gain any weight
back.
 
Valley Of Mu_n wrote:

> On 24 Oct 2003 19:27:29 GMT, [email protected]ospam (Susan ) wrote:
>
>>>That's what I've been hinting to Dr. Chung. Do you possibly have any
>>>references to prove the difference to him beyond reasonable doubt?


Dr. Chung will never concede the tiniest point. Will never admit
error. Will always evade and distort. Will only reply to substantiated
fact with loaded "questions" that are merely intended to deflect.

Matti, you've done a splendid job of making your points with
background support and primary references. Note that you've merely
been given "experience" and "opinion" in return. And the usual ****
from Mu in whatever guise he's roaming these days.

>>>Matti Narkia

>>
>>What would be the point? He'll never agree.

>
> the point is that either you discuss only if you feel that you can
> make a change or you discuss hoping to make a change. The former
> requires little effort, the latter does. Remember, all is Googled so
> there will be the discussion for the ages to see.
>
> Or, in your case, not.


And in your case, there is no contribution. There is no integrity,
there are no credentials, there is no desire to do good. There is
divisiveness, scorn and mockery of your betters and avoidance of
substantive discussion. Probably because you recognize when you're
outclassed.

Hit your macro, lame-boy

Pastorio
 
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:29:29 GMT in article
<[email protected]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>
>> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >>
>> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>> >>
>> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>> >> --
>> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
>> >
>> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.

>>
>> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>>
>> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
>> deficiencies and stupidity.
>>
>> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
>> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>>
>> So you recommend eating more meat?

>
>Consider replacing meat with soy proteins (less methionine):
>
>http://tinyurl.com/sagl


It's nothing wrong with soy protein, IMHO, but methionine or protein intake
in general does not seem to be associated with elevated serum homocysteine
level, see

Haulrik N, Toubro S, Dyerberg J, Stender S, Skov AR, Astrup A.
Effect of protein and methionine intakes on plasma homocysteine
concentrations:
a 6-mo randomized controlled trial in overweight subjects.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Dec;76(6):1202-6.
PMID: 12450883 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12450883&dopt=Abstract>

"... CONCLUSION: A high-protein, high-methionine diet does not raise
homocysteine concentrations compared with a low-protein, low-methionine
diet in overweight subjects."

--
Matti Narkia
 
Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:48:40 -0400 in article
<[email protected]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Matti Narkia wrote:
>
>> Food items with highest folate contents
>> are liver products, which are high protein foods.

>
>There are those who are inherently predisposed to elevated homocysteine levels even in the face of enough
>folate, B12, and B6. These folks will have higher levels when ingesting higher levels of animal protein
>(higher methionine content).
>

Hmmm..., the study

Haulrik N, Toubro S, Dyerberg J, Stender S, Skov AR, Astrup A.
Effect of protein and methionine intakes on plasma homocysteine
concentrations:
a 6-mo randomized controlled trial in overweight subjects.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Dec;76(6):1202-6.
PMID: 12450883 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12450883&dopt=Abstract>

does not seem to support your claim. In this study the protein intake was
increased in the high-protein group mainly through lean meat and low-fat
dairy products. The conclusion:

"... CONCLUSION: A high-protein, high-methionine diet does not raise
homocysteine concentrations compared with a low-protein, low-methionine
diet in overweight subjects."

Do you have any references to support your claim? No, I thought so.

--
Matti Narkia
 
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:41:28 GMT in article
<[email protected]> Matti Narkia
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:29:29 GMT in article
><[email protected]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
>MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>>
>>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>>
>>> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>> >>
>>> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>>> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>>> >>
>>> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>>> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>>> >> --
>>> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
>>> >
>>> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.
>>>
>>> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>>>
>>> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>>> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
>>> deficiencies and stupidity.
>>>
>>> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
>>> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>>>
>>> So you recommend eating more meat?

>>
>>Consider replacing meat with soy proteins (less methionine):
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/sagl

>
>It's nothing wrong with soy protein, IMHO, but methionine or protein intake
>in general does not seem to be associated with elevated serum homocysteine
>level, see
>
>Haulrik N, Toubro S, Dyerberg J, Stender S, Skov AR, Astrup A.
> Effect of protein and methionine intakes on plasma homocysteine
>concentrations:
>a 6-mo randomized controlled trial in overweight subjects.
>Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Dec;76(6):1202-6.
>PMID: 12450883 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12450883&dopt=Abstract>
>
> "... CONCLUSION: A high-protein, high-methionine diet does not raise
> homocysteine concentrations compared with a low-protein, low-methionine
> diet in overweight subjects."
>

A couple of other studies show inverse association between protein intake
and serum homocysteine concentration:

Stolzenberg-Solomon RZ, Miller ER 3rd, Maguire MG, Selhub J, Appel LJ.
Association of dietary protein intake and coffee consumption with serum
homocysteine concentrations in an older population.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Mar;69(3):467-75.
PMID: 10075332 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/69/3/467>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10075332&dopt=Abstract>

" ... The predominant sources of dietary protein among the VITAL
participants were low-fat animal foods. ..."

"... CONCLUSIONS: These results support the hypothesis that increased
protein intake and decreased coffee consumption may reduce tHcy and
potentially prevent atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease and other
disease outcomes."

Ingenbleek Y, Hardillier E, Jung L.
Subclinical protein malnutrition is a determinant of hyperhomocysteinemia.
Nutrition. 2002 Jan;18(1):40-6.
PMID: 11827763 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11827763&dopt=Abstract>

"... CONCLUSIONS: Hyperhomocysteinemia may arise from the shrinking of
endogenous nitrogen pools as a result of decreased protein intake or
stress-induced increased losses. ..."

--
Matti Narkia
 
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 01:37:02 GMT in article
<[email protected]> Jim Chinnis
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
>>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>>
>>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>>
>>> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>>> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>>>
>>> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>>> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>>> --
>>> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

>>
>>Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.

>
>Oh...well hang on while I check...
>
>It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>

Yes, also in the study

Stolzenberg-Solomon RZ, Miller ER 3rd, Maguire MG, Selhub J, Appel LJ.
Association of dietary protein intake and coffee consumption with serum
homocysteine concentrations in an older population.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Mar;69(3):467-75.
PMID: 10075332 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/69/3/467>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10075332&dopt=Abstract>

" ... The predominant sources of dietary protein among the VITAL
participants were low-fat animal foods. ..."

"... CONCLUSIONS: These results support the hypothesis that increased
protein intake and decreased coffee consumption may reduce tHcy and
potentially prevent atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease and other
disease outcomes."

--
Matti Narkia
 
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 04:15:32 GMT in article
<[email protected]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>
>> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >>
>> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>> >>
>> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>> >> --
>> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
>> >
>> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.

>>
>> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>>
>> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
>> deficiencies and stupidity.
>>
>> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
>> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>>
>> So you recommend eating more meat?

>
>Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
>sources of protein?
>

That's irrelevant. See

Haulrik N, Toubro S, Dyerberg J, Stender S, Skov AR, Astrup A.
Effect of protein and methionine intakes on plasma homocysteine
concentrations:
a 6-mo randomized controlled trial in overweight subjects.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Dec;76(6):1202-6.
PMID: 12450883 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12450883&dopt=Abstract>

"... Protein intake was increased in the HP group mainly through lean
meat and low-fat dairy products. ..."

"... CONCLUSION: A high-protein, high-methionine diet does not raise
homocysteine concentrations compared with a low-protein, low-methionine
diet in overweight subjects."

and

Stolzenberg-Solomon RZ, Miller ER 3rd, Maguire MG, Selhub J, Appel LJ.
Association of dietary protein intake and coffee consumption with serum
homocysteine concentrations in an older population.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Mar;69(3):467-75.
PMID: 10075332 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/69/3/467>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10075332&dopt=Abstract>

" ... The predominant sources of dietary protein among the VITAL
participants were low-fat animal foods. ..."

"... CONCLUSIONS: These results support the hypothesis that increased
protein intake and decreased coffee consumption may reduce tHcy and
potentially prevent atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease and other
disease outcomes."

--
Matti Narkia
 
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:21:38 GMT in article
<[email protected]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Susan wrote:
>
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> >That's what I've been hinting to Dr. Chung. Do you possibly have any
>> >references to prove the difference to him beyond reasonable doubt?
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Matti Narkia

>>
>> What would be the point? He'll never agree.
>>

>
>Matti looks crestfallen.
>

In your dreams perhaps?

Makes me wonder how low you can sink in your desperation.


--
Matti Narkia
 
x-no-archive: yes

>>That's what I've been hinting to Dr. Chung. Do you possibly have any
>>>>references to prove the difference to him beyond reasonable doubt?


i didn't write the above, Matti Narkia did.

Susan
 
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:43:57 GMT, Matti Narkia <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>Matti looks crestfallen.
>>

>In your dreams perhaps?
>
>Makes me wonder how low you can sink in your desperation.


Oh, I see. This discussion is some kind of contest. I didn't know
that.

What does the winner get? Are you the only judge of who wins and
loses?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031024.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:07:18 -0400 in article
<[email protected]> Mu_n Of Mars
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:43:57 GMT, Matti Narkia <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>>Matti looks crestfallen.
>>>

>>In your dreams perhaps?
>>
>>Makes me wonder how low you can sink in your desperation.

>
>Oh, I see. This discussion is some kind of contest.
>

Not for me.
>
>I didn't know that.
>

Neither did I before Chung's off-topic comment above. Well, if the one-liner
contest is more important to him than searching for the truth, I was never
in that contest and I'm not going to start now. It's better to stick to the
scientific facts, IMHO. I just wish we would see more of those from _all_
the posters.



--
Matti Narkia
 
Jim Chinnis schrieb:
>
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >> I eat plenty of
> >> meats and protein in general, but it's all low in sat fat. I'm fairly
> >> certain my intake is half or 3/4 of the 10 g. the medical community
> >> advises. So far my lipid panels have improved. It'd be hard to believe
> >> that improvements would be detrimental.

> >
> >Oxidized lipids from hyperketonemia could be. The concern remains that your
> >lipids are lower because they are being oxidized and deposited into your arteries.

>
> If he's eating plenty of protein, how is hyperketonemia likely?
>
> And are you serious that his "lipids are are lower because they are being
> oxidized and deposited into [his] arteries"?! I don't have time now, but if no
> one beats me to it, I'll calculate how much deposition that implies (lipid
> mass) over time...


Dr. Chung will never admit that ketogenic diets are any good, so for
him, any excuse will do to distort the facts, however unlikly his
explanations might be. Remember him blaming the death of a priest on a
low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due to his weight loss?

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
 
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:28:54 GMT, Matti Narkia <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>Oh, I see. This discussion is some kind of contest.
>>

>Not for me.


Doesn't appear that way.

>>I didn't know that.
>>

>Neither did I before Chung's off-topic comment above.
>Well, if the one-liner
>contest is more important to him than searching for the truth,


You don't know Chung like I do. If you did, you would have never typed
that.

>I was never
>in that contest and I'm not going to start now. It's better to stick to the
>scientific facts, IMHO. I just wish we would see more of those from _all_
>the posters.


What are your qualifications to interpret citations? Are you a
researcher?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031024.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>
>> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >>
>> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>> >>
>> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>> >> --
>> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
>> >
>> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.

>>
>> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>>
>> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
>> deficiencies and stupidity.
>>
>> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
>> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>>
>> So you recommend eating more meat?
>>

>
>Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
>sources of protein?


More. And research finds that more of it is associated with less, rather than
more, homocysteine.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>
>> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >>
>> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>> >>
>> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>> >> --
>> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
>> >
>> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.

>>
>> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>>
>> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
>> deficiencies and stupidity.
>>
>> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
>> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>>
>> So you recommend eating more meat?

>
>Consider replacing meat with soy proteins (less methionine):
>
>http://tinyurl.com/sagl


Problem is that the soy treatment group appeared to get more folate. That
could explain the modest effect. And other research shows that high animal
protein consumption is associated with significantly lower homocysteine.

I don't think the experimental research results or the theoretical basis for
homocysteine/protein relationships in the body are that well understood. I did
run a test on myself (n=1) recently substituting soy protein for a good part
of my usual animal protein, with no detectible change in homocysteine (from
12.8 to 12.5). (In both phases, I was supplementing with 1mg of folate and
other B vitamins.)
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
"Thorsten Schier" <> wrote in message firemail.de...
> Dr. Chung will never admit that ketogenic diets are any good, so for
> him, any excuse will do to distort the facts, however unlikly his
> explanations might be. Remember him blaming the death of a priest on a
> low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due to his weight loss?
>
> Thorsten


so........ if you need to lose weight...... how do you accomplish this
withOUT going into ketosis?????

regardless of the form of diet used?