Low-glycemic-load diets: impact on obesity and chronic diseases



Matti Narkia wrote:

> Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:21:38 GMT in article
> <[email protected]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
> MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Susan wrote:
> >
> >> x-no-archive: yes
> >>
> >> >That's what I've been hinting to Dr. Chung. Do you possibly have any
> >> >references to prove the difference to him beyond reasonable doubt?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Matti Narkia
> >>
> >> What would be the point? He'll never agree.
> >>

> >
> >Matti looks crestfallen.
> >

> In your dreams perhaps?
>
> Makes me wonder how low you can sink in your desperation.
>


Why should I despair if you were successful convincing folks that ketogenic
low-carb dieting were safe?

If anything, the realization of my concerns will mean more patients to in my
cardiology practice.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
Jim Chinnis wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >
> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >>
> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
> >> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
> >> >>
> >> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
> >> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
> >> >> --
> >> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
> >> >
> >> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.
> >>
> >> Oh...well hang on while I check...
> >>
> >> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
> >> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
> >> deficiencies and stupidity.
> >>
> >> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
> >> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
> >>
> >> So you recommend eating more meat?
> >>

> >
> >Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
> >sources of protein?

>
> More. And research finds that more of it is associated with less, rather than
> more, homocysteine.


Not if intakes of folate, B12, and B6 are controlled.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Matti Narkia wrote:

[...]
> > I think that ketosis does occur in most LC diets at least
> > during first three months,

>
> at least while working.
>
> > but whether this is a problem or not is under
> > dispute.

>
> Go ahead an cite your source for your claim that it is not a problem. You have my sources for why
> hyperketonemia is a concern.
>
> > It certainly has not yet been proven that this transient limited
> > ketosis is harmful in LC diets.

>
> Why subject yourself to the uncertain risk?


I prefer the uncertain risk of ketosis over the known risks of obesity,
high blood pressure und high triglycerides.

> What happened to your mantra of prevention?
>
> >
> > >
> > >There are those who are inherently predisposed to elevated homocysteine levels even in the face of enough
> > >folate, B12, and B6. These folks will have higher levels when ingesting higher levels of animal protein
> > >(higher methionine content).
> > >

> > LC diets don't necessarily have higher levels of animal protein.

>
> Far and away more times they do. It is the rare individual that goes
> ketogenic low-carb combined with vegan.


Sure, vegans on ketogenic diets are rare. That is not to say that the
average low carb dieter eats so much more animal products than persons
on the normal North American or European diet.

For example, when I was eating in a restaurant some time ago I asked if
I could have green beans instead of the french fries that came with the
meal I fancied. I could. So I ate the same amount of meat as I would
haven eaten if not on low carb. I even got less saturated fat (no french
fries). Are you going to tell me that I harmed myself by replacing the
french fries with green beans?

Generally I eat more vegetables on this diet than ever before in my
life. I also do eat a lot of poultry and red meat, but I did so, too,
before low carbing.

[...]
> > >> Having said that, folate needs may be higher than generally assumed, at
> > >> least for some individuals, so it's good to take precaution, IMHO.
> > >
> > >If you are that concerned about it, why subject yourself to a LC diet in the first place?
> > >

> > Other diets have the same concern

>
> Not the 2PD approach.


I would think that people on the 2PD might have a tendency to chose food
high in calories and avoid food like vegetables, so they might have a
lower than usual intake of folate.

> > and LC diets have benefits proven in
> > trials.
> >

>
> What benefits independent of the weight loss?


Lower blood pressure, lower triglglycerides, to name but two.

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
 
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:38:53 +0100, Thorsten Schier
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> > Remember him blaming the death of a priest on a
>> >low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due to his weight loss?


>> Google that for me.

>
>Voila:
>
>http://groups.google.de/groups?q=g:...e=UTF-8&[email protected]


And you took that comment from Chung to mean Chung blames the death
of this priest on a low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due
to his weight loss?

But then you are incredible naive about the realities of all kinds of
things and your ability to corkscrew a comment into what you _think_
it said is well documented.

IOW, you are very near being a TROLL and very near the end of any more
conversation with you.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
Thorsten Schier wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> >
> > Matti Narkia wrote:

> [...]
> > > I think that ketosis does occur in most LC diets at least
> > > during first three months,

> >
> > at least while working.
> >
> > > but whether this is a problem or not is under
> > > dispute.

> >
> > Go ahead an cite your source for your claim that it is not a problem. You have my sources for why
> > hyperketonemia is a concern.
> >
> > > It certainly has not yet been proven that this transient limited
> > > ketosis is harmful in LC diets.

> >
> > Why subject yourself to the uncertain risk?

>
> I prefer the uncertain risk of ketosis over the known risks of obesity,
> high blood pressure und high triglycerides.
>


It would be "on top of" rather than "over".


--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
Mars at the Mu_n's Edge schrieb:
>
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:38:53 +0100, Thorsten Schier
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > Remember him blaming the death of a priest on a
> >> >low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due to his weight loss?

>
> >> Google that for me.

> >
> >Voila:
> >
> >http://groups.google.de/groups?q=g:...e=UTF-8&[email protected]

>
> And you took that comment from Chung to mean Chung blames the death
> of this priest on a low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due
> to his weight loss?


What do you think does it mean?

You know, it would have been easy for Dr. Chung to say: This is only one
case, no diet can guarantee that you don't die from CHD. Or: He might
have died no matter what diet he was on, after all he already had
artherosclerosis before he started on Ornish. But no, it must have been
the ketosis that killed him.

> But then you are incredible naive about the realities of all kinds of
> things and your ability to corkscrew a comment into what you _think_
> it said is well documented.


If I don't share your opinion, that does not make me naive.

> IOW, you are very near being a TROLL and very near the end of any more
> conversation with you.


Now why would I want to have conversation with myself? I prefer to
communicate with others.

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
 
Thorsten Schier wrote:

> Mu_n Of Mars schrieb:
> >
> > On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:36:55 +0200, Thorsten Schier
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Remember him blaming the death of a priest on a
> > >low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due to his weight loss?

> >
> > No.
> >
> > Google that for me.

>
> Voila:
>
> http://groups.google.de/groups?q=g:...e=UTF-8&[email protected]
>
> (http://tinyurl.com/sor6)
>


Thanks for the link proving that I did not blame the death of an Ornish-dieting priest on hyperketonemia.

If anything, it sounds like refusing bypass surgery was what led to the priest's eventual premature cardiac demise.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > Mu_n Of Mars schrieb:
> > >
> > > On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:36:55 +0200, Thorsten Schier
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Remember him blaming the death of a priest on a
> > > >low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due to his weight

> > loss?
> > >
> > > No.
> > >
> > > Google that for me.

> >
> > Voila:
> >
> > http:/
> > groups.google.de/groups?q=g:thl1227282846d&dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3E559E88.2CD6A290%40heartmdphd.com
> >
> > (http://tinyurl.com/sor6)
> >

>
> Thanks for the link proving that I did not blame the death of an
> Ornish-dieting priest on hyperketonemia.
>
> If anything, it sounds like refusing bypass surgery was what led to
> the priest's eventual premature cardiac demise.


However you implied that he was in ketosis due his weight loss and that
the ketosis probably made the bypass surgery necessary in the first
place.


Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Thorsten Schier wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> > >
> > > Matti Narkia wrote:

> > [...]
> > > > I think that ketosis does occur in most LC diets at least
> > > > during first three months,
> > >
> > > at least while working.
> > >
> > > > but whether this is a problem or not is under
> > > > dispute.
> > >
> > > Go ahead an cite your source for your claim that it is not a problem. You have my sources for why
> > > hyperketonemia is a concern.
> > >
> > > > It certainly has not yet been proven that this transient limited
> > > > ketosis is harmful in LC diets.
> > >
> > > Why subject yourself to the uncertain risk?

> >
> > I prefer the uncertain risk of ketosis over the known risks of obesity,
> > high blood pressure und high triglycerides.
> >

>
> It would be "on top of" rather than "over".


Hardly.

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
 
Thorsten Schier wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
> >
> > Thorsten Schier wrote:
> >
> > > Mu_n Of Mars schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:36:55 +0200, Thorsten Schier
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Remember him blaming the death of a priest on a
> > > > >low fat diet to his being allegedly in ketosis due to his weight
> > > loss?
> > > >
> > > > No.
> > > >
> > > > Google that for me.
> > >
> > > Voila:
> > >
> > > http:/
> > > groups.google.de/groups?q=g:thl1227282846d&dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3E559E88.2CD6A290%40heartmdphd.com
> > >
> > > (http://tinyurl.com/sor6)
> > >

> >
> > Thanks for the link proving that I did not blame the death of an
> > Ornish-dieting priest on hyperketonemia.
> >
> > If anything, it sounds like refusing bypass surgery was what led to
> > the priest's eventual premature cardiac demise.

>
> However you implied that he was in ketosis due his weight loss and that
> the ketosis probably made the bypass surgery necessary in the first
> place.
>
> Thorsten


Sounds like you are waffling to me.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>
>> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >>
>> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>> >> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>> >> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
>> >> >
>> >> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.
>> >>
>> >> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>> >>
>> >> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>> >> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
>> >> deficiencies and stupidity.
>> >>
>> >> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
>> >> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>> >>
>> >> So you recommend eating more meat?
>> >>
>> >
>> >Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
>> >sources of protein?

>>
>> More. And research finds that more of it is associated with less, rather than
>> more, homocysteine.

>
>Not if intakes of folate, B12, and B6 are controlled.


I took a little while to review the literature and can't see any evidence for
your statement. Studies which controlled for B-vitamins found a strong inverse
relationship between dietary protein (generally meat and dairy) and
homocysteine.

An example is http://tinyurl.com/ss53

I understand the underlying arguments based on methionine metabolism--I just
don't see any data to support your contention.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:57:01 GMT in article
<[email protected]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>
>> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >>
>> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>> >> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>> >> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
>> >> >
>> >> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.
>> >>
>> >> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>> >>
>> >> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>> >> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
>> >> deficiencies and stupidity.
>> >>
>> >> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
>> >> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>> >>
>> >> So you recommend eating more meat?
>> >>
>> >
>> >Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
>> >sources of protein?

>>
>> More. And research finds that more of it is associated with less, rather than
>> more, homocysteine.

>
>Not if intakes of folate, B12, and B6 are controlled.
>

As someone just said in another context: data talks, ******** walks." Where
is your data?

--
Matti Narkia
 
Jim Chinnis wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >
> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >>
> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
> >> >> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
> >> >> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.
> >> >>
> >> >> Oh...well hang on while I check...
> >> >>
> >> >> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
> >> >> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
> >> >> deficiencies and stupidity.
> >> >>
> >> >> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
> >> >> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
> >> >>
> >> >> So you recommend eating more meat?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
> >> >sources of protein?
> >>
> >> More. And research finds that more of it is associated with less, rather than
> >> more, homocysteine.

> >
> >Not if intakes of folate, B12, and B6 are controlled.

>
> I took a little while to review the literature and can't see any evidence for
> your statement. Studies which controlled for B-vitamins found a strong inverse
> relationship between dietary protein (generally meat and dairy) and
> homocysteine.
>
> An example is http://tinyurl.com/ss53
>


A variable is controlled only when it is actually measured and shown to be controlled.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
>> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>>
>> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >>
>> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
>> >> >> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
>> >> >> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Oh...well hang on while I check...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
>> >> >> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
>> >> >> deficiencies and stupidity.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
>> >> >> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So you recommend eating more meat?
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
>> >> >sources of protein?
>> >>
>> >> More. And research finds that more of it is associated with less, rather than
>> >> more, homocysteine.
>> >
>> >Not if intakes of folate, B12, and B6 are controlled.

>>
>> I took a little while to review the literature and can't see any evidence for
>> your statement. Studies which controlled for B-vitamins found a strong inverse
>> relationship between dietary protein (generally meat and dairy) and
>> homocysteine.
>>
>> An example is http://tinyurl.com/ss53
>>

>
>A variable is controlled only when it is actually measured and shown to be controlled.


An epidemiological study uses multiple regression. That's the way multiple
co-varying factors are "controlled."

You're the one who says to lower protein to lower homocysteine, in opposition
to the published studies. Got any data?
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
 
Jim Chinnis wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
>
> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >
> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >>
> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Jim Chinnis wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> If high protein, low carb does better that's great; if not then
> >> >> >> >> >> I guess I'm not in much worse shape than prior to the diet change.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Except for the hyperketonemia (and possible hyperhomocysteinemia).
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I believe all the published studies show a negative association between %
> >> >> >> >> calories from protein and level of homocysteine... But it's possible...
> >> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> >> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Depends on the source of the protein, Jim.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Oh...well hang on while I check...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It's animal protein that was found to associate negatively with homocysteine.
> >> >> >> And vegans have the highest homocysteine levels, probably due to B12
> >> >> >> deficiencies and stupidity.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The effects of soy seem unclear, because soy is rich in folate and that seems
> >> >> >> to be uncontrolled in the studies.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So you recommend eating more meat?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Does meat have more or less methionine (source of homocysteine) than other
> >> >> >sources of protein?
> >> >>
> >> >> More. And research finds that more of it is associated with less, rather than
> >> >> more, homocysteine.
> >> >
> >> >Not if intakes of folate, B12, and B6 are controlled.
> >>
> >> I took a little while to review the literature and can't see any evidence for
> >> your statement. Studies which controlled for B-vitamins found a strong inverse
> >> relationship between dietary protein (generally meat and dairy) and
> >> homocysteine.
> >>
> >> An example is http://tinyurl.com/ss53
> >>

> >
> >A variable is controlled only when it is actually measured and shown to be controlled.

>
> An epidemiological study uses multiple regression. That's the way multiple
> co-varying factors are "controlled."
>
> You're the one who says to lower protein to lower homocysteine, in opposition
> to the published studies. Got any data?


Didn't we just discuss that study where the switch to soy protein lowered homocysteine?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:57:52 -0500 in article
<[email protected]> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>
>> You're the one who says to lower protein to lower homocysteine, in opposition
>> to the published studies. Got any data?

>
>Didn't we just discuss that study where the switch to soy protein lowered homocysteine?
>

What study was that? Reference? Was in controlled for folate, B6 and B12?

--
Matti Narkia
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in part:

>> The available evidence is that higher protein consumption, meaning in these
>> studies meat and dairy except in one study where it meant soy protein, is
>> associated with lower homocysteine.

>
>You forget the reference to individuals who inherently have defects of folate metabolism whereby
>dietary intakes of folate are ineffective and thereby truly no longer a variable. In those
>individuals dietary intake of methionine predictably elevates homocysteine.


Yes, it does.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA