LOWER BACK PAIN

alienator said:

It's impossible to say from the pictures whether anything is wrong with your fit. While you're waiting to see a doc, you should go back to the LBS that did the fit and tell them about your continuing pain. Bike fits often start with a set of assumptions about what makes for a good fit for most people. As you might guess, those assumptions may not work for everyone. It's not unusual that a bike fit needs some adjustments made to it. Consider bike fit to be an excellent starting point. The LBS that did the fit should be willing to work with you until the fit is right, assuming that you don't have a physiological problem that's causing the pain in your back and the odd feeling around your grollies and gouch.

FWIW, I think the dimensions you gave should be centimeters, not millimeters. How long is your stem? An 11.5 cm saddle to handlebar drop is a lot for someone new to cycling. How did the LBS determine your fore/aft saddle position? Fore/aft saddle position is what places your leg/knee in the proper spot over the BB (proper for you), so when the LBS positioned your saddle, it should have been done to get your leg/knee in the right position instead of to shorten the reach to the handlebars. Did they use saddle position to adjust your reach to the bars?

Also, why did you wear a black ski mask during the fit? Were the shop people and customers repulsed by your appearance? Are you wanted by authorities?

I think the ski mask was worn because that suspect massage parlour was next door to the bike store...

Ah, the old ski mask near the massage parlor trick. That could be kinky depending on how it plays out.

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Does the pain feel like it is in the muscle or in the spine? Or both? If you have any kind of sharp pain that feels deep, you might have an aggravated disc pressing against your main nerve, and that can cause the muscles to be aggravated around it. You really do need to see a doctor, but...

Be careful trusting just one doctor too if you go see one. Best to try and see a sports doctor or a physiatrist, because they understand that a person is willing to push through the pain a lot more doing something they love. A general doctor will often give you a bottle of pills, a prescription for some cheap and useless physical therapy, and an order to "don't ride your bike/run/swim/whatever hurts". (That order, in my case, led to a decade of sedentary degeneration) Avoid chiropractors until you know exactly what the injury actually is. personally, since a chiropractor gave me chronic sciatica, I avoid them altogether.

For me, 15 years later and enough money spent on useless therapy to buy a couple top-of-the-line Cervelos....Iyengar Yoga was by back saviour. It's a style of yoga where you spend a long time in each pose, and you really learn your physiology when you do them slow like that, you feel all sorts of tissue releasing and the dynamics of stretching at the same time as exercising does wonders, especially when practicing a sport that requires unnatural postures like road cycling. One time during a light class load, the teacher made the 1.5 hour class devoted to bicycle issues. Careful reverse bends, chest opening, hip flexing, ahh. I have enough experience with it now that I can feel my spine (in a good way) as I ride and use the core muscles as needed to keep it flexible, supportive and springy.

If there's an Iyengar clinic in your town, really try it out. If there isn't, see if there's a Yoga studio that offers a "back care" class. if nothing's available, check out the book "Back Care Basics" available on Amazon. It teaches you how to self-diagnose and then gives you the proper exercises for the injury, which are based on Iyengar methods.

Hope i'm not reiterating too much, but I'd hate for anyone else to get kicked off their bike for decades-to-life like I did, due to one stupid little piece of defective flesh in the spine.

-Court

Quoted post said:

...cheap and useless physical therapy....

Pray tell, what is "cheap and useless physical therapy"?

alienator said:

Pray tell, what is "cheap and useless physical therapy"?

Thanks for catching me in a moment of bias. I had 3 years of physical therapy that did nothing but make the back worse, but I'm sure that hasn't been everyone's experience. However, it was bad enough and so commonly prescribed that I considered it 'cheap and useless'. But i'll eat my words since I probably insulted a few doctors and physical therapists on this forum.

Cheap not because of the cost, but because of the effort and investment the physical therapy office put into it. I found more than one or 2 to take advantage of high prices insurance companies pay out ($8 for ice, $140 for 5 minutes on a Chuck Norris Total Gym (yes, really.), $100 for a 3-minute massage, $160 for 5 minutes on a TENS machine, etc.)

Useless because freezing, squatting, rubbing and shocking, if anything, made the problem worse. one of the clinics I got robbed at specifically told me not to do the exact exercises I now do to keep my back in check. Another one stuck an intern on me, who kept leaving and asking questions.

What I meant my point to be is to get input from multiple sources. There is no one expert on anyone's back problem. All respect to the physical therapists out there who really do make an effort on a tricky problem like lower backs.

-Court

kdelong said:

Thai massage is a form of erotic massage and would probably just make your back problems worse.

I have to disagree. Thai Massage has a stigma of being erotic, but like any massage, it can be made erotic. Since it has its roots in an economically-deprived country, yes, its a big erotic business, but Traditional Thai Massage (and that's how its advertised) is an extremely therapeutic massage that is excellent for lower back issues.

It really works on sciatic issues, tendonitis and other wicked problems: The masseuse uses his/her own body weight to apply full-body pressure to the areas that need it. They utilize elbows & knees, and is very hard work. It's also considered to be "passive yoga" (the masseuse moves you instead of you moving yourself), so the same benefits of yoga are prevalent after a Thai massage done right.

There are many professional masseuses that also specialize in Thai massage. Multi-disciplined masseuses can be very helpful in back issues.

Sam123 said:

I cant get bike fits around here.

In the end you are your own best bike fitter. You can learn what bike fit is best for you by experimentation and adjustment. Listen to the feedback your body gives you. Don't try to copy what others do, especially racers (unless you're looking to race -- still you need to find the position that works best for you).

You may also need to balance your musculature. Core work is never a bad idea for cyclists as we tend to not work the core muscles enough riding. This can lead to imbalances.

Sam you've been given a lot of good advice here and most of it agrees:

Bike fit is important but you may still need to tweak it to be more specific to you rather than a computer program's ideal for your height, reach etc. When buying a new bike I went to get a set of measurements from a triathlon shop who did bike fits so that I got the correct size frame. Guess what? When I got home I compared the measurements to my old bike and they were exactly what I was riding. This after 4 years of tweaking the saddle height, fore/aft position etc. This will come with experience .

Your flexibility seems to be the route cause as a higher saddle/longer reach made it much worse. I concur with Yoga and pilates. They are a hell of a lot cheaper than doctors and you can even do the exercises at home for free after you've been a couple of times. These really work. So much so that in my town there are many cycle/triathlon specific classes.

Physiotherapy - I use an Osteopath who is a triathlete herself. It shouldn't be hard to find sports injury clinics as opposed to the general physiotherapist who may spend most of their time working with arthritis etc.

If i could pick one thing for you right now I would go with the yoga a couple of times a week. I would also suggest doing back stretching (whether yoga based or not) everymorning or before and after a ride.

Oh, and if you can afford it, spend a week on a beach in Thailand and get a massage. You'll thank me for it later.

cloudhead said:

I have to disagree. Thai Massage has a stigma of being erotic, but like any massage, it can be made erotic. Since it has its roots in an economically-deprived country, yes, its a big erotic business, but Traditional Thai Massage (and that's how its advertised) is an extremely therapeutic massage that is excellent for lower back issues.

There are many professional masseuses that also specialize in Thai massage. Multi-disciplined masseuses can be very helpful in back issues.

Sorry, I'm not an expert on massage but a good friend of mine is. She is a trained, licensed, board certified massage therapist and instructor with 25 years experience. She was the one who told me that most massages that are called Thia Massage are just erotic massages masquerading under that name. I called her on it and she said that there is a legitimate Thai Massage that is actually more manually stretching than the traditional kneading massage. But the majority of "Thai Massages" offered around here are little more than the standard fare of the local Asian massage parlors.

Ok this back problem may be not related to your family. It could be in your head. Read a book by John Sarno on healing back pain . Also you bike with your core muscles.

Court,

You also insulted the chiropractors on this forum as well. Just because you a personal misfortune with one particular chiropractor is no reason to trash the whole profession, however, after being in practice for 20 years, I am used to hearing this sort of bias. There are many different types of chiropractors and techniques. In my practice we specialize in in sports and disc injuries which the original poster just happens to be suffering from. The clinic I own also employs physical therapists and medical doctors as well. We all work as a team to tackle problems that couldn't be solved elsewhere. Besides treating discs for 20 years I also suffer from multiple disc herniations ( mostly gymnastics and rugby), and had surgery a year and a half ago. So I know and can relate what it is like from the patient's point of view as well.
Some of the other information given by Court is proven medically wrong and detrimental. Specifically with respect to stretching and yoga prior to exercise. The recent research has shown over and over again that stretching just prior to strenous exercises causes MORE injuries and decreases overall power. Warming up is totally different than stretching though. Warming up on your bike is paramount to performing safely and powerfully. I happen to be a big fan of yoga and proper stretching (minus the head stands), and I recommend it all the time but only AFTER exercise or on a rest day.
With respect to the original poster. There is almost 100% certainty that you are suffering from a disc injury of one or two natures, or both. Either a disc bulge or disc herniations. Discs don't "slip". Contrary to common perception disc injuries are mode common in younger 25-40 people versus older. One of the main indicators pointing to disc is the radiating pain in your leg. If it was just isolated to your lower back it might be a score of other possibilities, however, radiation into the leg in a young cyclist strongly suggest disc.
You should.
A. Stop riding
B. Ice
C. Possibly use some OTC antiimflamatory meds such as ibuprofen .

If it does not resolve in two weeks make an appointment to see a doctor ( MD,chiropractor, osteopath) who specializes in disc injuries where you will most likely be prescribed a MRI to give an accurate diagnosis. If that happens, and you indeed have one or multiple herniations then that is another discussion. The best current treatment for most herniations is non surgical decompression coupled with physical therapy.

Hang in there and good luck🙂

Argos said:

Court,

You also insulted the chiropractors on this forum as well. Just because you a personal misfortune with one particular chiropractor is no reason to trash the whole profession, however, after being in practice for 20 years, I am used to hearing this sort of bias.

Point well taken. However I saw 4 chiropractors, not 1, over a 3 year period before I gave up on the practice. The problem I have with them wasn't necessarily the practice of chiropractic, but the method they conducted to keep me coming back to their offices. None of them recommended anything other than returning to their offices for more therapy by them.

I'll do my best to be less offensive and try to convey my experiences in a more objective manner. I give you my sincere apologies for insulting you or anyone else. Unfortunately I learned my experience is not uncommon. I suppose in this sensitive area (in more ways than one), many can get insulted, but after a decade of extreme pain, i can't help it in some situations. I was unable to walk for months after the 4th chiropractor. Granted, he was young and tried to act more knowledgeable than he really was. Unfortunately I learned this too late, but I was only 24 myself at the time, subjected to the new world of lower back pain, and just wanted the pain to go away. I know this isn't limited to chiropractic, this is in all medical professions and it creates a very bad image for those in the profession who truly know what they are doing. Apologies again.

However, I don't stretch before getting on the bike. I do Iyengar yoga before getting on the bike. Stretching alone doesn't help me. It's the full-body exercise that frees up my myofascia and warms up every muscle in my body that has gotten me on the bike. Iyengar method focuses on full-body alignment via the exercises, and it's that alignment that allows me to ride. The focus is alignment, and the strength and flexibility come about via the alignment.

Basically I have my own flow that I developed that doesn't make me feel worked out, stretched, etc.. It simply makes me feel "normal", and then I'm ready to go. It's definitely a full-body warmup. It's not just cycling I use yoga for, it's every action I do in life now has a Iyengar knowledge to it that keeps me strong and aligned. For example, since I just woke up, I currently have a dull ache in my lumbar from sleeping, and will not ride my bike. However If i can work out that dullness, which I learned to do via Iyengar yoga, then I will, and then I will get on my bike. Simple as that.

I have not read or heard anything about Iyengar being detrimental, unless someone tried to do it improperly, which is done all the time (and then others blast it, I see the point). If anything, a lot of people don't like Iyengar because it starts very slow, takes a while, and can take years before one becomes an expert. Around here, most people are into Vinyasa or Bikram yoga, which moves much faster and doesn't help my back much do to the rapidness. I remember a Bikram student lambasting the class we just took because it was boring and slow, and never returned. There's a good chance she told others that Iyengar is no good, so yes, I see the point of improperly-directed insult again.

Anyways I'll just write once more that I will try not to blast any professions that in particular didn't work for me. My anger should have been directed at the fraud, not the profession. I came on this forum to learn, not to rip on anyone. I'll kick it as a reader only for a while and shut up since I'm new. I'm sorry.

-Court

No worries mate, it's all good. Just trying to help out others with something I do know about, in seeing I can't contribute much about cycling yet🙂

Argos said:

Court,

You also insulted the chiropractors on this forum as well. Just because you a personal misfortune with one particular chiropractor is no reason to trash the whole profession, however, after being in practice for 20 years, I am used to hearing this sort of bias. There are many different types of chiropractors and techniques. In my practice we specialize in in sports and disc injuries which the original poster just happens to be suffering from. The clinic I own also employs physical therapists and medical doctors as well. We all work as a team to tackle problems that couldn't be solved elsewhere. Besides treating discs for 20 years I also suffer from multiple disc herniations ( mostly gymnastics and rugby), and had surgery a year and a half ago. So I know and can relate what it is like from the patient's point of view as well.
Some of the other information given by Court is proven medically wrong and detrimental. Specifically with respect to stretching and yoga prior to exercise. The recent research has shown over and over again that stretching just prior to strenous exercises causes MORE injuries and decreases overall power. Warming up is totally different than stretching though. Warming up on your bike is paramount to performing safely and powerfully. I happen to be a big fan of yoga and proper stretching (minus the head stands), and I recommend it all the time but only AFTER exercise or on a rest day.
With respect to the original poster. There is almost 100% certainty that you are suffering from a disc injury of one or two natures, or both. Either a disc bulge or disc herniations. Discs don't "slip". Contrary to common perception disc injuries are mode common in younger 25-40 people versus older. One of the main indicators pointing to disc is the radiating pain in your leg. If it was just isolated to your lower back it might be a score of other possibilities, however, radiation into the leg in a young cyclist strongly suggest disc.
You should.
A. Stop riding
B. Ice
C. Possibly use some OTC antiimflamatory meds such as ibuprofen .

If it does not resolve in two weeks make an appointment to see a doctor ( MD,chiropractor, osteopath) who specializes in disc injuries where you will most likely be prescribed a MRI to give an accurate diagnosis. If that happens, and you indeed have one or multiple herniations then that is another discussion. The best current treatment for most herniations is non surgical decompression coupled with physical therapy.

Hang in there and good luck🙂

I also had the same experience with the Chiro profession, several visits which ended with severe sciatica, from which I took over a year to recover. The root cause of OP's (on the bike only) lower back pain is the combination of a natural pedalling technique and a permanently defective lower back. A natural pedaller's strong arms are not capable of supporting all his upper body weight in its leaning forward position without all types of arm/hand strain complications, yet a defective lower back is expected to cope with this continuous strain in addition to supplying pedalling resistance while road shock vibration is also having its effect.
That explains why cycling's LBP is so common throughout the world. Knowing how to transfer all this workload from the lower back to the arms without any arm strain is the instant complete solution not only for this type of lower back pain but also for the 12 o'c dead spot area. I call it "linear" pedalling and a free demonstration and detailed explanation will be available for any interested victims of this pain who are prepared to travel when the promised new Powermeter becomes available. The higher the gears used with this very different style of pedalling, the more beneficial the effect on the now strain free lower back.

n crowley said:

I call it "linear" pedalling and a free demonstration and detailed explanation will be available for any interested victims of this pain who are prepared to travel when the promised new Powermeter becomes available. The higher the gears used with this very different style of pedalling, the more beneficial the effect on the now strain free lower back.

Awesome! And then after the tutorial, you can explain how the Moon landings were hoaxed and how the Illuminati rule the world. 🙄

My nan calls it referred pain as its behind the left hip it starts then goes into the lower back.

Sam123 said:

My nan calls it referred pain as its behind the left hip it starts then goes into the lower back.

It is most likely the other way around. Starting from a disc in the lower back (usually L5-S1 or the one above it L4-L5) which in turn in turn causes inflammation of nerves that exit the spine there and travel down your leg via what is known as the lumbar plexus. In this case icing the hip or leg will do no good, you have to treat the inflammation at it's origin. Do you have pain if you cough or sneeze real hard? If so that is another positive sign (Valsalva's Test) of disc injury.

Argos said:

Do you have pain if you cough or sneeze real hard? If so that is another positive sign (Valsalva's Test) of disc injury.

Nope. Not at all.

I do get a bit of pain in the leg behind the knee and in the quad but thats probably because my bum feels like inflammation aswell.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/road-cycling/477199-strange-feeling-below.html#post3955237

alienator said:

Awesome! And then after the tutorial, you can explain how the Moon landings were hoaxed and how the Illuminati rule the world. 🙄

It was very noticeable during today's TT that Contador was forced to push himself backward on his saddle almost every 5 pedal strokes, this amounts to 1000 times (approx.) over the distance. Can you, being the "expert", explain what made this waste of energy necessary.

n crowley said:

It was very noticeable during today's TT that Contador was forced to push himself backward on his saddle almost every 5 pedal strokes, this amounts to 1000 times (approx.) over the distance. Can you, being the "expert", explain what made this waste of energy necessary.

Wow! I'm an expert? Awesome. I can't wait to tell my wife!

I have no idea why Contador was allegedly "forced to push himself backward on his saddle almost every 5 pedal stokes." What did Contador's team tell you when you counseled them about it?