Lower back pain after ~90minutes of riding. Any suggestions?
- Thread starter Trekrider4812
- Start date
CapeRoadster said:
Yes there are many cyclists who pedal normally and never suffer from back pain but they have perfect lower backs. The lower back is only as strong as its weakest disc and if there is any defect, the continuous cycling strain will soon get to work on it, causing not only pain but also the risk of further injury to that area. That "PEZ" article stated 60 to 70 percent of cyclists suffer from back pain, a lot of pain sufferers for a non contact sport?. Non-vertical pedalling removes the root cause and if the root cause is removed there cannot be any pain, so it is complete removal and not a reduction in the pain. Except for bracing his lower back in the same way as weightlifters do, Anquetil's lower back did not contribute anything to the production of pedal power or the support of upper body weight and as a result he was noted for having the strongest lower back of all cyclists during his racing years. Suffer on, it's your choice.
Hmmm, this is a rather disappointing thing to read.n crowley said:
When you say the lower back is only strong as its weakest disc, are you referring to the disc itself, or the muscles that stabilize it against forces produced from cycling?
I would prefer to correct or alleviate my back pain by strengthening muscles in the lower back, as opposed to incorporating arm use and posture change. I will still look up Anquetil's style of pedaling, and see what I turn up.
I work at a bike shop, and a senior roadie came in the other day. We talked about lower back pain, and he said that humans just weren't made to ride bikes. Evolution made us to walk upright, not bend over for hours at a time, straining a rather small muscle group continuously. I guess his point correlates with the fact that perfect backs may still suffer....
What the heck I love biking!!! It should be comfortable if I want to hammer on the road all day long!
Trekrider4812 said:Hmmm, this is a rather disappointing thing to read.
When you say the lower back is only strong as its weakest disc, are you referring to the disc itself, or the muscles that stabilize it against forces produced from cycling?
I would prefer to correct or alleviate my back pain by strengthening muscles in the lower back, as opposed to incorporating arm use and posture change. I will still look up Anquetil's style of pedaling, and see what I turn up.
I work at a bike shop, and a senior roadie came in the other day. We talked about lower back pain, and he said that humans just weren't made to ride bikes. Evolution made us to walk upright, not bend over for hours at a time, straining a rather small muscle group continuously. I guess his point correlates with the fact that perfect backs may still suffer....
What the heck I love biking!!! It should be comfortable if I want to hammer on the road all day long!
I was referring to the inner discs and whats between them only and not the surrounding muscles. Except for what I have written, you will not find any additional information on Anquetil. The bracing of the lower back that's used with his pedalling has the same effect on the lower back as doing standard lower back crunch exercises and strengthen the surrounding muscles. That explains his mysterious stronger lower back, while all other riders' lower backs were under continuous strain, his strain free lower back was enjoying the continuous benefit of this crunch exercise during the long hours spent training and racing on their bikes.
Until about three years ago, I had more-or-less chronic back pain on every ride of 30 miles or more. The pain was much worse than any leg pains, because once it set in it didn't really go away until I got off the bike. What worked for me was:Trekrider4812 said:Hmmm, this is a rather disappointing thing to read.
When you say the lower back is only strong as its weakest disc, are you referring to the disc itself, or the muscles that stabilize it against forces produced from cycling?
I would prefer to correct or alleviate my back pain by strengthening muscles in the lower back, as opposed to incorporating arm use and posture change. I will still look up Anquetil's style of pedaling, and see what I turn up.
I work at a bike shop, and a senior roadie came in the other day. We talked about lower back pain, and he said that humans just weren't made to ride bikes. Evolution made us to walk upright, not bend over for hours at a time, straining a rather small muscle group continuously. I guess his point correlates with the fact that perfect backs may still suffer....
What the heck I love biking!!! It should be comfortable if I want to hammer on the road all day long!
1. Reduced my saddle-to-bars drop from 5" to 2" by moving from a 56 to 58 frame.
2. Doing ab/low back stretching and strength exercises at home- 5minutes/day.
3. Always keeping the cadence up in 90-100 range or higher when working hard. If you're a big-gear masher that likes to hammer, this can be tough. I got a triple in order to maintain a decent seated cadence on long climbs (ie, 75 vs 50 rpm).
Believe if you're patient and work slowly to heal your back, you'll get there. Don't "go out and hammer on the road all day long" any time soon...take things easy with the big ring loads, especially when in the drops. With careful miles and discipline, bet you can be riding pain-free in 3-6 months. Make pain-free riding your first and only priority for now and you'll get there. It's worth it not to suffer anymore.
Good advice , this was my problem. I was riding a 54cm frame and should have been on a 56 or 58 in a trek. I was having to put too much pressure on my back by leaning that bit too much forward, not alot, but enought to get my back all ****** off after about two hours to the point were it was hurting off the bike as well. Some riders such as Lance armstrong rode bikes that only had a one inch drop from saddle hieght to handle bars because of a stiff lower back. cheersAlex Simmons said:
I don't suffer from LBP on the bike. I do have herniated discs (cured with exercise, not Anquetil).n crowley said:
Saying the lower back is only as strong as the weakest disc is hogwash, sorry, mate. The lower back may only be as strong as its weakest muscle, or muscles, or other spinal ligaments, or cartilage, or tendon (muscle again). It's not composed solely of discs.
85% of HUMANS suffer from low back pain, so when the scientific publication Pez states that 60-70% of cyclists do, that's a statistic that reflects nothing more than the incidence of low back pain in the general population. No big deal there.
You are mistaken about Anquetil's lower back. You also have no proof or even any reasonable hypothesis. Certainly no one has looked at Anquetil scientifically. I fthey have, please share it with us; I would be most interested.
The low back and core is the MOST important thing in cycling, even in an Anquetil. You can't fire a cannon from a canoe! No core strength, no extremity strength, and no cycling strength.
What is an "inner disc"? Abdominal bracing is tensing the abdominal muscles while contracting the diaphragm, in order to increase the intra-abdominal pressure. It is a technique used to protect he spinal discs in Olympic powerlifting. It is used for very short-term high power exercise, and not applicable to endurance cycling except perhaps during sprint accelerations.n crowley said:
You're not trained medically, and so it's hard to decipher exactly what you're trying to sell here. I'm sure we have a lot to learn from an Anquetil, but to state that somehow copying his pedaling technique will cure everyone's low back pain is absurd.
CapeRoadster said:
The low back and core is the most important thing in cycling only because you like all other cyclists when seated use close to vertical pedal pressure to power your bike. As Anquetil did, using a very special (shoe to pedal) power transfer technique, by applying the pressure in a completely different direction at an approx. 45 degree angle to the ground, power is generated in the hip muscles, resistance is also supplied by hips which are stabilized by arm resistance when necessary with the higher gears. There is no need for the use of the low back in this high gear time trial pedalling style. Scientists have not studied his style because they never did discover how he actually did it, how could they, they don't even believe it exists. All they know is that he pedalled with a toes down style but it's knowing the necessity for that special shoe position that makes the all important difference. For that reason, unlike the "Fosbury Flop" in the high jump, Anquetil's style cannot be copied. I have the proof, I can demonstrate exactly how it's done.
Hmmm... with your toes and pedaling force angled at 45 degrees (measured counterclockwise, looking at the rider sideways, while he travels from right to left), you are just using the common ankling technique right? (You know, high cadence pedaling, with your toes tilted down...)
This technique, coupled with using your arms to stabilize yourself, would help back pain (by relieving pressure/strain from the lower back)?
This technique, coupled with using your arms to stabilize yourself, would help back pain (by relieving pressure/strain from the lower back)?
Trekrider4812 said:
Nothing like ankling, the secret lies in the method of power generation and application and especially the transfer of this power from shoe to pedal. Each leg applies max power in almost the same direction for 180 degrees of the pedalling circle. Ankling is a slow cadence technique which uses toe up and down movements in keeping with the rise and fall of the pedal, almost like using powercranks. The bottom line is the lower back is completely removed from the pedalling action and in the process the root cause of cycling's back pain is eliminated.
While I am very interested in what you are saying, I just think you're saying it wrong. I completely agree that there are ways to take pressure off the low back when pedaling. Pedaling easier is the first thing to come to mind, for example.n crowley said:
You also cannot speak for me because I almost always try to use a horizontal pedaling motion when I pedal, and I do not get LBP from riding. Riding relieves my low back pain. And I have had a herniated L5-S1 disc recently as well. So keep me out of it. My low back pain had nothing to do with cycling when I had it.
In order to transfer power to the hips from the arms, or from the arms to the hips, a rider MUST use the core (lumbar spinal muscles). Listen, man, you can't even BLINK AN EYE unless transversus abdominus is engaged. I'll say it again:
You can't shoot a cannon from a canoe!
So, you're just saying it wrong. I think what you're trying to say is that Anquetil's style used the low back or the core "a lot less" due to heavier use of his arms as stabilizers as opposed to using the core as the predominant stabilizing group of muscles.
The hip muscles CANNOT be used without stabilization from the lumbar spinal muscles! Heavy use of the hips (whatever do you mean by "hips", by the way?) means strong gluteal contraction which can ONLY occur with stabilization of the spine. And it makes sense since the spinal musculature is ADJACENT to the hip musculature. You cannot fire a cannon from a canoe. No stabilization from the lumbar spine muscles (core), then ABSOLUTELY NO strong gluteal contraction (hip extension), and no power generated from the hips!
Say it different, my friend from Ireland! Saying: "There is no need for the use of the low back in this high gear time trial pedalling style." just isn't true, medically or biomechanically. I have some expertise in these topics.
It "cannot be copied" yet he can "show you how it's done". Incredible self-contradictory remark suitable for framing!dkrenik said:
NO! Impossible. It may be lessened, but not "completely removed". No way, not possible. Every biomechanics expert in the world is in agreement with me.n crowley said:
Interesting. I recall someone else last year talking about the same thing in another thread, without the claim of completely removing the lower back from the pedalling action. He must have understood that one of the quadriceps, the rectus femoris, attaches to the pelvis via a tendon and is activated during cycling. Obviously he knew that the major lower back muscle that stabilizes the spine, the quadratus lumborum, also attaches to the pelvis. As the quad is applying forces to the pelvis the quadratus lumborum is being fired to stablize spinal movements at the pelvic floor. So unless you can cycle without using your quads, the moral of the story is the back goes along for the ride.n crowley said:
Exactly!Bike N Ski said:
Except I differ in what muscles stabilize the lumbar spine. Quadratus is just one. Transversus abdominus is another. Lumbar multifidi are likely more important than any other, since they work primarily in the sagittal plane as do the quads and the glutes. I realize of course that the pelvis works in the frontal (side-to-side) and transverse (rotational) planes as well, of course, so all the lumbar stabilizers come into play to a certain degree. The multifidi are very susceptible to eccentric loads: they are the reason why humans are low back pain-making machines; i.e., we bend forward with eyes in front of our heads, not backwards. Multifidi attach to the pelvis via the sacrum and also directly to the ilia. The quadratus attaches to the ilia. The rectus abdominus attaches to the pubis. The iliacus works together with the psoas and the "iliopsoas" attaches to the ilia, lumbar vertebrae and femur!
So when using the quads during cycling, is it definitely not possible to isolate hip joint movements from lumbar spine movements: the two always work together.
Clearly, strengthening one's core is paramount. Any help from pedaling technique should be ignored however, and I await a response from Dublin.
Coppi pedaled with downward pointing toes. Maybe we're on to something...
CapeRoadster said:
Easily explained, it has to be independently discovered and I discovered it when I attempted and succeeded in biomechanically combining the upper body muscle power of a hand crank trike rider with the lower body muscles of a road bike rider. I knew I was on a winner and the examples of Anquetil's pedalling on his video confirmed it was identical to his technique. Now frame that. The low back pain that I refer to is cycling related "on the bike only" back pain, which ceases when you get off the bike. As for your canoe, which are stronger and capable of taking the greater strain, the hips or the lower back muscles ?
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