Lubing Campy Record Hubs

[Mark]

Hi Folks. I have new Campy Record Hubs/Mavic Open Pro Rims on my new
Paramount build up. What specific Lube should be OK to use?

I have no idea if all basic Bike Greases will be safe for use with
these? I'm worried about possible damage to Seals if I use the wrong
type grease. (I have Park Grease, and Triflow Grease on hand)

Another question I have is about the Oil Ports on board. Should a
Couple of drops of oil be added after re-greasing to very slightly
"Cut" the viscosity of the grease, or should I basically ignore these
for 'Normal" use?
Thanks all, Mark

 

[Pete Biggs]

Mark, Replies have been posted to your thread entitled "Lube question
about Record hubs".

~PB

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

<< Hi Folks. I have new Campy Record Hubs/Mavic Open Pro Rims on my new
Paramount build up. What specific Lube should be OK to use? >><BR><BR>

Times 2...Grease is oil in soap. Use any decent grease, whether 'synthetic' or
petroleum based. Mix and match, you aren't going to hurt anything. keeping them
adjusted well, and giving them a complete takeapart, clean and adjust regularly
is most important.

DO NOT try to thin grease. It has 'soap' in it so that it stays put.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
<[email protected]>...
><< Hi Folks. I have new Campy Record Hubs/Mavic Open Pro Rims on my new
>Paramount build up. What specific Lube should be OK to use? >><BR><BR>
>
>Times 2...Grease is oil in soap. Use any decent grease, whether 'synthetic'
or
>petroleum based. Mix and match, you aren't going to hurt anything. keeping
them
>adjusted well, and giving them a complete takeapart, clean and adjust
regularly
>is most important.
>
>DO NOT try to thin grease. It has 'soap' in it so that it stays put.

Adding oil to the grease is not to thin it. It is to ensure that the grease
is loaded with oil and not drying out. Grease can be deemed important in a
rolling bearing because it traps the wear debris so preventing its
entrapment between ball and race and encouraging an early fatigue failure of
the race surface. Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.

Trevor

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.
>><BR><BR>

oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs that
are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a tub
of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried out.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message >
>oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs
that
>are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a
tub
>of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried
out.
>
yes, but would that grease adequately protect the bearings at 10,000 miles
per years?
My experience says it does not always protect the bearing for one year.

Trevor

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
<[email protected]>...
>trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
>will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
>the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.
>>><BR><BR>
>
>oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs
that
>are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a
tub
>of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried
out.
>

How many miles have these 5 year old hubs covered? What grease? How do you
know they haven't dried out? How do you know the condition of the bearings?
A tub of grease is not the same as grease in a rotating bearing.

Trevor

 

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:00:00 +0100, "Trevor Jeffrey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
><[email protected]>...
>>trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
>>will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
>>the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.
>>>><BR><BR>
>>
>>oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs
>that
>>are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a
>tub
>>of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried
>out.
>>
>
>How many miles have these 5 year old hubs covered? What grease? How do you
>know they haven't dried out? How do you know the condition of the bearings?
>A tub of grease is not the same as grease in a rotating bearing.
>
>Trevor

Dear Trevor,

Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

Carl Fogel

 

[A Muzi]

[email protected] wrote:
> Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
> sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
, leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
than a plastic tub affords.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:40:59 -0500, A Muzi
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
>> sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?
>
>By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
>, leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
>than a plastic tub affords.

Dear Andrew,

So it's the slight but steady venting through the imprefect
seals that lets grease dry out?

What I was wondering was whether it was a couple of other
things.

Heat degrading the grease and cooking off volatile oils
seemed unlikely, since I doubt that it gets warmer than the
metal hub, but then we're heard about the point contacts of
steering head bearing micro-welding and fretting if they
lose lubricant, so I wondered about tiny local heating.

Churning and aerating the grease seemed more plausible,
since the balls slide in endless circles through the soap.

I also wondered about water leaking in and emulsifying the
grease into the odd gray mess that I see on my chain after a
rainy ride and then seeping out, carrying the lighter oils
with it.

Since I've got someone with a fair amount of experience
handy, what are your thoughts on grease versus oil in a hub?
After five years or ten or whatever the dry-out period is
for grease in hubs, would you expect the oil to have dried
out sooner, later, or roughly the same?

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

trevor-<< yes, but would that grease adequately protect the bearings at 10,000
miles
per years?
My experience says it does not always protect the bearing for one year.
>><BR><BR>

It has so far. Only grease I use on my own hubs, HS and BB(cup and ball).

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

[email protected] wrote in message ...
>
>Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
>sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?
>

A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls wipe
the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will be
a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to reduced
oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.

Trevor

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

[email protected] wrote in message ...
>Churning and aerating the grease seemed more plausible,
>since the balls slide in endless circles through the soap.
>
Yes. See previous reply to you.

>I also wondered about water leaking in and emulsifying the
>grease into the odd gray mess that I see on my chain after a
>rainy ride and then seeping out, carrying the lighter oils
>with it.

Bearing wear particles as well as dust contamination will tend to provide
substance for water to cling to. This will cause emulsification with the
moisture assisting in the retention of air so accelerating corrosion. I
feel this is the reason a relatively new hub can be suseptible to corrosion
and not the loss of oil of the grease. There is plenty of wear particles
until the bearings have worn in ang become smooth.

>
>Since I've got someone with a fair amount of experience
>handy, what are your thoughts on grease versus oil in a hub?
>After five years or ten or whatever the dry-out period is
>for grease in hubs, would you expect the oil to have dried
>out sooner, later, or roughly the same?

I do not propose operating bearings without grease, it collects and retains
wear particles and contaminants, only to supplement it with oil at regular
intervals.

Trevor

 

[Jim Adney]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:40:59 -0500 A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
>> sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?
>
>By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
>, leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
>than a plastic tub affords.

Grease is a mixture of oil and soap. The oil lubricates while the soap
is merely a medium to contain and dispense the oil. Oil will separate
from most greases even sitting in a sealed can, and can be seen as a
small puddle of oil sitting on the grease when the can is opened. This
won't be evident unless the can has been unused for a year or so.

At any rate, once the oil is released it will migrate out into the
bearing where it does its job. From there it migrates further, where
it is eventually wiped off with a rag in the process of cleaning up
the bike.

It doesn't really "dry" out, but it does leave behind the soap.

A more complete explanaion can be found in "The Machinerys Handbook."

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Jim Adney]

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:04:12 +0100 "Trevor Jeffrey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
>constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls wipe
>the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will be
>a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to reduced
>oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
>of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
>fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.

I think you might learn something by reading the section on grease and
lubrication in "The Machinerys Handbook."

The deformation that eventually results in fatigue has nothing to do
with wear particles and occurs even with perfectly clean, oil
lubricated bearings.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

Jim Adney wrote in message ...
>On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:04:12 +0100 "Trevor Jeffrey"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
>>constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls
wipe
>>the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will
be
>>a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to
reduced
>>oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
>>of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
>>fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.
>
>I think you might learn something by reading the section on grease and
>lubrication in "The Machinerys Handbook."
>
>The deformation that eventually results in fatigue has nothing to do
>with wear particles and occurs even with perfectly clean, oil
>lubricated bearings.

Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid with
sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of the
bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
particles.

Trevor

 

[Tom Nakashima]

"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
> build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
> deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid
with
> sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
> unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
> bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of the
> bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
> particles.
>
> Trevor
>
Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates, but
for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot of
30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I inspect
the race and balls, they look fine.
-tom

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...
>
>"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
>> build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
>> deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid
>with
>> sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
>> unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
>> bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of
the
>> bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
>> particles.
>>
>> Trevor
>>
>Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
>hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
>oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates, but
>for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot
of
>30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
>old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
>years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
>the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I
inspect
>the race and balls, they look fine.
>-tom
>

Therefore each time you are giving them a squirt, you're flushing the debris
out. The use of grease with the routine drop of oil will not be so messy.

Trevor

 

[Tom Nakashima]

"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...
> >
> >"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear
particle
> >> build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
> >> deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid
> >with
> >> sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
> >> unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
> >> bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of
> the
> >> bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
> >> particles.
> >>
> >> Trevor
> >>
> >Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
> >hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
> >oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates,
but
> >for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot
> of
> >30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
> >old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
> >years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
> >the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I
> inspect
> >the race and balls, they look fine.
> >-tom
> >
>
> Therefore each time you are giving them a squirt, you're flushing the
debris
> out. The use of grease with the routine drop of oil will not be so messy.
>
> Trevor
>
With grease, it retain most of the debris in the hub, while using just oil,
it flushes most of the debris out of the hub.
A good example, is to take apart a "grease only" Campagnolo Record hub after
riding 1k-2k mi. or so, and try to clean out all the grease. It's a lot of
work, trying to do so, you will also find fine bits of debris. Cleaning the
30w motor oil out of a Campagnolo Record hub is easier with hardly any
debris.
-tom

 

[Trevor]

Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...
>With grease, it retain most of the debris in the hub, while using just oil,
>it flushes most of the debris out of the hub.
>A good example, is to take apart a "grease only" Campagnolo Record hub
after
>riding 1k-2k mi. or so, and try to clean out all the grease. It's a lot of
>work, trying to do so, you will also find fine bits of debris. Cleaning
the
>30w motor oil out of a Campagnolo Record hub is easier with hardly any
>debris.

I'm still not convinced about Campag's instructions to grease. I grease a
frying pan with oil. Campag's use of the word I expect is similar.

Trevor