Lubing Campy Record Hubs

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Mark, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. Mark

    Mark Guest

    Hi Folks. I have new Campy Record Hubs/Mavic Open Pro Rims on my new
    Paramount build up. What specific Lube should be OK to use?

    I have no idea if all basic Bike Greases will be safe for use with
    these? I'm worried about possible damage to Seals if I use the wrong
    type grease. (I have Park Grease, and Triflow Grease on hand)

    Another question I have is about the Oil Ports on board. Should a
    Couple of drops of oil be added after re-greasing to very slightly
    "Cut" the viscosity of the grease, or should I basically ignore these
    for 'Normal" use?
    Thanks all, Mark
     
    Tags:


  2. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Mark, Replies have been posted to your thread entitled "Lube question
    about Record hubs".

    ~PB
     
  3. << Hi Folks. I have new Campy Record Hubs/Mavic Open Pro Rims on my new
    Paramount build up. What specific Lube should be OK to use? >><BR><BR>

    Times 2...Grease is oil in soap. Use any decent grease, whether 'synthetic' or
    petroleum based. Mix and match, you aren't going to hurt anything. keeping them
    adjusted well, and giving them a complete takeapart, clean and adjust regularly
    is most important.

    DO NOT try to thin grease. It has 'soap' in it so that it stays put.

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  4. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
    <[email protected]>...
    ><< Hi Folks. I have new Campy Record Hubs/Mavic Open Pro Rims on my new
    >Paramount build up. What specific Lube should be OK to use? >><BR><BR>
    >
    >Times 2...Grease is oil in soap. Use any decent grease, whether 'synthetic'

    or
    >petroleum based. Mix and match, you aren't going to hurt anything. keeping

    them
    >adjusted well, and giving them a complete takeapart, clean and adjust

    regularly
    >is most important.
    >
    >DO NOT try to thin grease. It has 'soap' in it so that it stays put.


    Adding oil to the grease is not to thin it. It is to ensure that the grease
    is loaded with oil and not drying out. Grease can be deemed important in a
    rolling bearing because it traps the wear debris so preventing its
    entrapment between ball and race and encouraging an early fatigue failure of
    the race surface. Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
    will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
    the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.

    Trevor
     
  5. trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
    will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
    the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.
    >><BR><BR>


    oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs that
    are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a tub
    of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried out.

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  6. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message >
    >oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs

    that
    >are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a

    tub
    >of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried

    out.
    >

    yes, but would that grease adequately protect the bearings at 10,000 miles
    per years?
    My experience says it does not always protect the bearing for one year.

    Trevor
     
  7. Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
    <[email protected]>...
    >trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
    >will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
    >the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.
    >>><BR><BR>

    >
    >oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs

    that
    >are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a

    tub
    >of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried

    out.
    >


    How many miles have these 5 year old hubs covered? What grease? How do you
    know they haven't dried out? How do you know the condition of the bearings?
    A tub of grease is not the same as grease in a rotating bearing.

    Trevor
     
  8. On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:00:00 +0100, "Trevor Jeffrey"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
    ><[email protected]>...
    >>trevor-<< Oil is essential to lubrication, grease contains oil, but
    >>will dry out. Periodic addition of oil will extend the service period when
    >>the old grease require stripping out due to saturation with wear material.
    >>>><BR><BR>

    >>
    >>oh please, maybe if you overhaul your hubs once per decade. I have hubs

    >that
    >>are 5 years old that have grease in them that hasn't 'dried out'. I have a

    >tub
    >>of Campagnolo grease that I have been using for 10 years that isn't dried

    >out.
    >>

    >
    >How many miles have these 5 year old hubs covered? What grease? How do you
    >know they haven't dried out? How do you know the condition of the bearings?
    >A tub of grease is not the same as grease in a rotating bearing.
    >
    >Trevor


    Dear Trevor,

    Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
    sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

    Carl Fogel
     
  9. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
    > sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?


    By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
    , leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
    than a plastic tub affords.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  10. On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:40:59 -0500, A Muzi
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:
    >> Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
    >> sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

    >
    >By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
    >, leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
    >than a plastic tub affords.


    Dear Andrew,

    So it's the slight but steady venting through the imprefect
    seals that lets grease dry out?

    What I was wondering was whether it was a couple of other
    things.

    Heat degrading the grease and cooking off volatile oils
    seemed unlikely, since I doubt that it gets warmer than the
    metal hub, but then we're heard about the point contacts of
    steering head bearing micro-welding and fretting if they
    lose lubricant, so I wondered about tiny local heating.

    Churning and aerating the grease seemed more plausible,
    since the balls slide in endless circles through the soap.

    I also wondered about water leaking in and emulsifying the
    grease into the odd gray mess that I see on my chain after a
    rainy ride and then seeping out, carrying the lighter oils
    with it.

    Since I've got someone with a fair amount of experience
    handy, what are your thoughts on grease versus oil in a hub?
    After five years or ten or whatever the dry-out period is
    for grease in hubs, would you expect the oil to have dried
    out sooner, later, or roughly the same?

    Thanks,

    Carl Fogel
     
  11. trevor-<< yes, but would that grease adequately protect the bearings at 10,000
    miles
    per years?
    My experience says it does not always protect the bearing for one year.
    >><BR><BR>


    It has so far. Only grease I use on my own hubs, HS and BB(cup and ball).

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  12. [email protected] wrote in message ...
    >
    >Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
    >sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?
    >


    A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
    constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls wipe
    the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will be
    a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to reduced
    oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
    of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
    fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.

    Trevor
     
  13. [email protected] wrote in message ...
    >Churning and aerating the grease seemed more plausible,
    >since the balls slide in endless circles through the soap.
    >

    Yes. See previous reply to you.

    >I also wondered about water leaking in and emulsifying the
    >grease into the odd gray mess that I see on my chain after a
    >rainy ride and then seeping out, carrying the lighter oils
    >with it.


    Bearing wear particles as well as dust contamination will tend to provide
    substance for water to cling to. This will cause emulsification with the
    moisture assisting in the retention of air so accelerating corrosion. I
    feel this is the reason a relatively new hub can be suseptible to corrosion
    and not the loss of oil of the grease. There is plenty of wear particles
    until the bearings have worn in ang become smooth.

    >
    >Since I've got someone with a fair amount of experience
    >handy, what are your thoughts on grease versus oil in a hub?
    >After five years or ten or whatever the dry-out period is
    >for grease in hubs, would you expect the oil to have dried
    >out sooner, later, or roughly the same?


    I do not propose operating bearings without grease, it collects and retains
    wear particles and contaminants, only to supplement it with oil at regular
    intervals.

    Trevor
     
  14. Jim Adney

    Jim Adney Guest

    On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:40:59 -0500 A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:
    >> Why would grease "dry out" differently inside a fairly well
    >> sealed tub and inside a fairly well sealed hub?

    >
    >By whatever process, grease in hubs does indeed lose its oil
    >, leaving the dried crusty soap. There is more of a vent
    >than a plastic tub affords.


    Grease is a mixture of oil and soap. The oil lubricates while the soap
    is merely a medium to contain and dispense the oil. Oil will separate
    from most greases even sitting in a sealed can, and can be seen as a
    small puddle of oil sitting on the grease when the can is opened. This
    won't be evident unless the can has been unused for a year or so.

    At any rate, once the oil is released it will migrate out into the
    bearing where it does its job. From there it migrates further, where
    it is eventually wiped off with a rag in the process of cleaning up
    the bike.

    It doesn't really "dry" out, but it does leave behind the soap.

    A more complete explanaion can be found in "The Machinerys Handbook."

    -
    -----------------------------------------------
    Jim Adney [email protected]
    Madison, WI 53711 USA
    -----------------------------------------------
     
  15. Jim Adney

    Jim Adney Guest

    On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:04:12 +0100 "Trevor Jeffrey"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
    >constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls wipe
    >the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will be
    >a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to reduced
    >oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
    >of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
    >fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.


    I think you might learn something by reading the section on grease and
    lubrication in "The Machinerys Handbook."

    The deformation that eventually results in fatigue has nothing to do
    with wear particles and occurs even with perfectly clean, oil
    lubricated bearings.

    -
    -----------------------------------------------
    Jim Adney [email protected]
    Madison, WI 53711 USA
    -----------------------------------------------
     
  16. Jim Adney wrote in message ...
    >On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:04:12 +0100 "Trevor Jeffrey"
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>A hub that is being used has air inside no matter how well sealed. The
    >>constant exposure of the oil, from the grease, to the air as the balls

    wipe
    >>the grease allows a greater surface area exposed. Eventually there will

    be
    >>a relatively small contact with the grease as it shrinks back due to

    reduced
    >>oil loading. Lubrication becomes minimal and the grease has little chance
    >>of collecting bearing wear and so the bearing races usually fail through
    >>fatigue with wear particles impacted into the races.

    >
    >I think you might learn something by reading the section on grease and
    >lubrication in "The Machinerys Handbook."
    >
    >The deformation that eventually results in fatigue has nothing to do
    >with wear particles and occurs even with perfectly clean, oil
    >lubricated bearings.


    Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
    build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
    deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid with
    sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
    unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
    bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of the
    bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
    particles.

    Trevor
     
  17. "Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
    > build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
    > deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid

    with
    > sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
    > unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
    > bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of the
    > bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
    > particles.
    >
    > Trevor
    >

    Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
    hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
    oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates, but
    for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot of
    30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
    old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
    years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
    the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I inspect
    the race and balls, they look fine.
    -tom
     
  18. Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...
    >
    >"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear particle
    >> build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
    >> deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid

    >with
    >> sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
    >> unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
    >> bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of

    the
    >> bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
    >> particles.
    >>
    >> Trevor
    >>

    >Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
    >hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
    >oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates, but
    >for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot

    of
    >30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
    >old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
    >years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
    >the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I

    inspect
    >the race and balls, they look fine.
    >-tom
    >


    Therefore each time you are giving them a squirt, you're flushing the debris
    out. The use of grease with the routine drop of oil will not be so messy.

    Trevor
     
  19. "Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...
    > >
    > >"Trevor Jeffrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]
    > >>
    > >> Localised fatigue spots do occur prematurely when there is wear

    particle
    > >> build up within a rolling bearing. I am well aware of rolling bearing
    > >> deformation due to load and how this causes fatigue. Balls wear ovoid

    > >with
    > >> sufficient use, due to wear loss, the debris is deposited upon the race
    > >> unless it is otherwise washed away or collected by the grease. Most
    > >> bearings fail prematurely within a bicycle due to the contamination of

    > the
    > >> bearing races. The soap acts as a reservoir for both the oil and wear
    > >> particles.
    > >>
    > >> Trevor
    > >>

    > >Wasn't that the reason for the oil holes on the older Campagnolo Record
    > >hubs, to replenish the oil? I'll have to say it is a bit messy when the
    > >oil gets forced out of the side holes on the hub as the wheel rotates,

    but
    > >for me, the oil prolongs the life of the balls and race. By giving a shot

    > of
    > >30w motor oil in the center fill slot every two weeks, it replenishes the
    > >old oil with the new. A quart of 30w has lasted 4+ years. It's been 5
    > >years since I changed the balls, and only inspected the hubs and adjusted
    > >the bearings twice since then after riding 4k-5k a year. Each time I

    > inspect
    > >the race and balls, they look fine.
    > >-tom
    > >

    >
    > Therefore each time you are giving them a squirt, you're flushing the

    debris
    > out. The use of grease with the routine drop of oil will not be so messy.
    >
    > Trevor
    >

    With grease, it retain most of the debris in the hub, while using just oil,
    it flushes most of the debris out of the hub.
    A good example, is to take apart a "grease only" Campagnolo Record hub after
    riding 1k-2k mi. or so, and try to clean out all the grease. It's a lot of
    work, trying to do so, you will also find fine bits of debris. Cleaning the
    30w motor oil out of a Campagnolo Record hub is easier with hardly any
    debris.
    -tom
     
  20. Trevor

    Trevor Guest

    Tom Nakashima wrote in message ...
    >With grease, it retain most of the debris in the hub, while using just oil,
    >it flushes most of the debris out of the hub.
    >A good example, is to take apart a "grease only" Campagnolo Record hub

    after
    >riding 1k-2k mi. or so, and try to clean out all the grease. It's a lot of
    >work, trying to do so, you will also find fine bits of debris. Cleaning

    the
    >30w motor oil out of a Campagnolo Record hub is easier with hardly any
    >debris.


    I'm still not convinced about Campag's instructions to grease. I grease a
    frying pan with oil. Campag's use of the word I expect is similar.

    Trevor
     
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