Lucky kid!

Quoted message said:

For pity's sake, I get enough pointless arguing from my marriage, I'm
not looking for it here!

The trick is to not read the threads that don't interest you. It's
not hard to master!

- Frank Krygowski

On Feb 2, 12:41 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote: (clip) Moreover, we know about the actual harm (in

reduced cycling) that helmet> laws universally do.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We do?

There's certainly plenty of evidence of such reductions. Whether the
reductions are universal is hard to say, because there are some places
where counts haven't been done. (Helmet law promoters in the US seem
to be taking special pains to prevent before-after surveys.)

But AFAIK, a significant reduction in cycling has occurred in every
place where a helmet law is enforced, and realistic counts have been
performed.

See http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html?1096 for some summaries.

- Frank Krygowski

Bill Sornson said:

Sigh. One more time: COMMON SENSE AND PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HAVE NO PLACE IN
HELMET WARS, BECAUSE TO AHZs IT'S A RELIGIOUS ISSUE AND THEY'RE TRUE (NON)
BELIEVERS!

Talk about backwards thinking!

For years, the helmet skeptics have been the ones producing the reams
of data in these discussions. The true-believer helmet fans have been
the ones typing all in caps, and making quips that sound like they're
written by Paris Hilton.

Understand, I used to be a helmet fan. It was the data that changed
my mind. The same learning has happened for many others who were once
helmet fans. But of course, this happens only if one questions the
"true faith" in helmets, and actually does some research. Oh, and
actually understands numbers.

Prove me wrong, Bill. Show us the data proving significant decreases
in serious head injuries per rider that's resulted from a significant
increase in helmet use.

You might want to start with http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html?1038

- Frank Krygowski

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Sornson said:

Quoted message said:

I was wearing a helmet when I was hit by a truck mirror---in the back
of the head. My helmet cracked, yet my skull was uninjured. If
nothing else, the helmet prevented me from having my head laid open
by the impact.

Sigh. One more time: COMMON SENSE AND PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HAVE NO PLACE IN
HELMET WARS,

War? There's another war? Whomever's doing it -- please stop.
As the song says: love the one you're with.

Quoted message said:

BECAUSE TO AHZs IT'S A RELIGIOUS ISSUE AND THEY'RE TRUE (NON)
BELIEVERS! (Exactly like /another/ leading issue of the day, initials
"G.W."😉

I don't mind GWGs but I prefer Levis. (boot cut.)
I've got a GAP denim jacket that everybody covets.
The inner pockets are oh so kewl.

Where were we? Oh, yeah -- helmets. I'm of two
minds about 'em. Maybe I should buy a second one.
Then I could be at odds with myself.

Life should be interesting anyways.

Hi-vis/reflective vests are a good thing too.
Everybody should wear 'em at all times.
But so many idjits are so religiously against 'em,
and it's their own durned fault if they get clobbered.
But we don't need to start yet another war about it.
Those who get pasted while not wearing a hi-vis vest
are simply unworthy of attaining paradise. They instead
end up in East St Louis or Cleveland or Akron or Enid.
It is so written. We must leave the lost to their
respective fates.

Heck, we've gotta shut-down some old wars, in order
to clear-out some room for new ones -- if ya really
want new ones.

How's the war on poverty and the war on drugs going?
(Or is that the same, tired ol' war?)

You conservatives sure like to think in terms of
War and Religion. Kinda like some folks in parts
of the Middle East.

Jihad on the styrofoam bicycle helmet skeptics,
heretics & doubters! Heh :-)

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Leo Lichtman wrote:
: > "Ryan Cousineau" wrote: (clip) Moreover, we know about the actual
harm (in
: > reduced cycling) that helmet
: >> laws universally do.
: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > We do?
: >
: Yes, whenever mandatory helmet laws are introduced, the level of cycling
: activities drops.

that certainly is not the case in Australia

--

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: On Feb 2, 12:41 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]>
: wrote:
: > "Ryan Cousineau" wrote: (clip) Moreover, we know about the actual
harm (in
: >
: > reduced cycling) that helmet> laws universally do.
: >
: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > We do?
:
: There's certainly plenty of evidence of such reductions. Whether the
: reductions are universal is hard to say, because there are some places
: where counts haven't been done. (Helmet law promoters in the US seem
: to be taking special pains to prevent before-after surveys.)
:
: But AFAIK, a significant reduction in cycling has occurred in every
: place where a helmet law is enforced, and realistic counts have been
: performed.
:
: See http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html?1096 for some summaries.
:
: - Frank Krygowski

more statistical hoo ha - significant reduction - realistic counts

of course there are going to be reductions in cycling usage immediately
after helmet laws are introduced - if for no other reason that cyclists have
not been equipped with helmets up to that point in time - a secondary
reason for initial rejection of compulsory helmet laws is the natural human
tendency to reject and resent change

--

---

a friendly growl from the bear on the Zephyr that roars

__ __ __ _ __
/__/ / /__/ /_ /_\ /_ /
/_ / _ / /__/ /__ / \ / \ ....Kawasaki Zephyr

barry j taylor < [email hidden] >
Ulysses #25871: netrider #549
Skype: ursusaustralis

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

: No reasonable person has denied that the Bicycle Foam Hat can work as a
: scratch and bump protector. To believe the Bicycle Foam Hat provides
: significant protection against skull fracture and/or serious brain
: injury indicates an ignorance of how little energy said hat can absorb.
:
: --
: Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
: "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
: - A. Derleth

and once upon a time science had the statistics to prove that the world is
flat

--

---

a friendly growl from the bear on the Zephyr that roars

__ __ __ _ __
/__/ / /__/ /_ /_\ /_ /
/_ / _ / /__/ /__ / \ / \ ....Kawasaki Zephyr

barry j taylor < [email hidden] >
Ulysses #25871: netrider #549
Skype: ursusaustralis

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
:: >
: Pro-foam bicycle hat zealots do not believe in science.
:
and anti-foam hat zealots do not believe in experiences of the real world

--

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barry Taylor said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Leo Lichtman wrote:
: > "Ryan Cousineau" wrote: (clip) Moreover, we know about the actual
harm (in
: > reduced cycling) that helmet
: >> laws universally do.
: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > We do?
: >
: Yes, whenever mandatory helmet laws are introduced, the level of cycling
: activities drops.

that certainly is not the case in Australia

Some reading material that disagrees: <http://www.cycle-helmets.com/>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Barry Taylor said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

: No reasonable person has denied that the Bicycle Foam Hat can work as a
: scratch and bump protector. To believe the Bicycle Foam Hat provides
: significant protection against skull fracture and/or serious brain
: injury indicates an ignorance of how little energy said hat can absorb.
:
: --
: Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
: "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
: - A. Derleth

and once upon a time science had the statistics to prove that the world is
flat

Huh? No such event ever occurred. The belief in a flat world was not
obtained by scientific methods, but by religious superstition.

Most of the Liddite position is also based on a blind faith in the
Bicycle Foam Hat that is not backed by proper scientific research.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Barry Taylor said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
:: >
: Pro-foam bicycle hat zealots do not believe in science.
:
and anti-foam hat zealots do not believe in experiences of the real world

Nonsense. It is the real world experience of the cycling population that
shows that bicycle foam hats have not provided a net safety benefit.

The Liddites prefer to ignore the science of the real world for their
intuition.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Barry Taylor wrote:
: > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: > news:[email hidden]...
: > : Leo Lichtman wrote:
: > : > "Ryan Cousineau" wrote: (clip) Moreover, we know about the
actual
: > harm (in
: > : > reduced cycling) that helmet
: > : >> laws universally do.
: > : > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > : > We do?
: > : >
: > : Yes, whenever mandatory helmet laws are introduced, the level of
cycling
: > : activities drops.
: >
: > that certainly is not the case in Australia
: >
: Some reading material that disagrees: <http://www.cycle-helmets.com/>.

in the immediate short term maybe

in the long term definitely NO

--

---

a friendly growl from the bear on the Zephyr that roars

__ __ __ _ __
/__/ / /__/ /_ /_\ /_ /
/_ / _ / /__/ /__ / \ / \ ....Kawasaki Zephyr

barry j taylor < [email hidden] >
Ulysses #25871: netrider #549
Skype: ursusaustralis

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: > : Yes, whenever mandatory helmet laws are introduced, the level of
cycling
: > : activities drops.
: >
: > that certainly is not the case in Australia
: >
: Some reading material that disagrees: <http://www.cycle-helmets.com/>.

that would have to be the worst argued article I have ever read
and the most blatant misuse of statistics I have come across

if that is what you call science in action I will remain a 'Liddite'
but I'd prefer to be known as a non Luddite

---

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Barry Taylor wrote:
: > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: > news:[email hidden]...
: >
: > : No reasonable person has denied that the Bicycle Foam Hat can work
as a
: > : scratch and bump protector. To believe the Bicycle Foam Hat
provides
: > : significant protection against skull fracture and/or serious brain
: > : injury indicates an ignorance of how little energy said hat can
absorb.
: > :
: > : --
: > : Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
: > : "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
: > : - A. Derleth
: >
: > and once upon a time science had the statistics to prove that the
world is
: > flat
: >
: Huh? No such event ever occurred. The belief in a flat world was not
: obtained by scientific methods, but by religious superstition.

that's what the next generation of scientists always argue

: Most of the Liddite position is also based on a blind faith in the
: Bicycle Foam Hat that is not backed by proper scientific research.

if you weren't so serious that would be humorous if not ludicrous

are you prepared to be the subject of a study to back up your claims ?
I am sure that I could find a legitimate science department at one of the
local unviersities or technical institutes that would be prepared to use you
and your head as a control for a study of the effectiveness of bicycle
helmets in reducing head injuries and brain damage

BTWEMWTK what is a Liddite ?

--

---

a friendly growl from the bear on the Zephyr that roars

__ __ __ _ __
/__/ / /__/ /_ /_\ /_ /
/_ / _ / /__/ /__ / \ / \ ....Kawasaki Zephyr

barry j taylor < [email hidden] >
Ulysses #25871: netrider #549
Skype: ursusaustralis

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barry Taylor said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Barry Taylor wrote:
: > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: > news:[email hidden]...
: > : Leo Lichtman wrote:
: > : > "Ryan Cousineau" wrote: (clip) Moreover, we know about the
actual
: > harm (in
: > : > reduced cycling) that helmet
: > : >> laws universally do.
: > : > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > : > We do?
: > : >
: > : Yes, whenever mandatory helmet laws are introduced, the level of
cycling
: > : activities drops.
: >
: > that certainly is not the case in Australia
: >
: Some reading material that disagrees: <http://www.cycle-helmets.com/>.

in the immediate short term maybe

in the long term definitely NO

Citation for this contention?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Barry Taylor said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: > : Yes, whenever mandatory helmet laws are introduced, the level of
cycling
: > : activities drops.
: >
: > that certainly is not the case in Australia
: >
: Some reading material that disagrees: <http://www.cycle-helmets.com/>.

that would have to be the worst argued article I have ever read
and the most blatant misuse of statistics I have come across

if that is what you call science in action I will remain a 'Liddite'
but I'd prefer to be known as a non Luddite

This from a person who believes in anecdotal evidence with no control
case as proof???

Look at the linked articles.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Barry Taylor said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Barry Taylor wrote:
: > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: > news:[email hidden]...
: >
: > : No reasonable person has denied that the Bicycle Foam Hat can work
as a
: > : scratch and bump protector. To believe the Bicycle Foam Hat
provides
: > : significant protection against skull fracture and/or serious brain
: > : injury indicates an ignorance of how little energy said hat can
absorb.
: > :
: > : --
: > : Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
: > : "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
: > : - A. Derleth
: >
: > and once upon a time science had the statistics to prove that the
world is
: > flat
: >
: Huh? No such event ever occurred. The belief in a flat world was not
: obtained by scientific methods, but by religious superstition.

that's what the next generation of scientists always argue

: Most of the Liddite position is also based on a blind faith in the
: Bicycle Foam Hat that is not backed by proper scientific research.

if you weren't so serious that would be humorous if not ludicrous

No, what is ludicrous is the blind faith in a lightweight web of
expanded polystyrene actually preventing serious head injury or death.

Quoted message said:

are you prepared to be the subject of a study to back up your claims ?
I am sure that I could find a legitimate science department at one of the
local unviersities or technical institutes that would be prepared to use you
and your head as a control for a study of the effectiveness of bicycle
helmets in reducing head injuries and brain damage

No, since the outcome is obvious in either case - with or without the
foam bicycle hat.

Quoted message said:

BTWEMWTK what is a Liddite ?

A Liddite is a person with faith in the effectiveness of foam bicycle
hats to prevent serious head injury or death.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Barry Taylor wrote:
: > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: > news:[email hidden]...
: > : Barry Taylor wrote:
: > : > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
: > : > news:[email hidden]...
: > : > : Leo Lichtman wrote:
: > : > : > "Ryan Cousineau" wrote: (clip) Moreover, we know about
the
: > actual
: > : > harm (in
: > : > : > reduced cycling) that helmet
: > : > : >> laws universally do.
: > : > : > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > : > : > We do?
: > : > : >
: > : > : Yes, whenever mandatory helmet laws are introduced, the
level of
: > cycling
: > : > : activities drops.
: > : >
: > : > that certainly is not the case in Australia
: > : >
: > : Some reading material that disagrees:
<http://www.cycle-helmets.com/>.
: >
: > in the immediate short term maybe
: >
: > in the long term definitely NO
: >
: Citation for this contention?

thanks for asking - from cycle-helmets.com
"The opening of a northern railway and widening of the freeway during
intervening years would influence these figures. However, they suggest
cyclist numbers fell dramatically after the bicycle helmet law was
introduced with the increase in numbers since 1998 compensating for that
fall."
:

--

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Barry Taylor wrote:
: > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: > news:[email hidden]...
: > : > : Yes, whenever mandatory helmet laws are introduced, the
level of
: > cycling
: > : > : activities drops.
: > : >
: > : > that certainly is not the case in Australia
: > : >
: > : Some reading material that disagrees:
<http://www.cycle-helmets.com/>.
: >
: > that would have to be the worst argued article I have ever read
: > and the most blatant misuse of statistics I have come across
: >
: > if that is what you call science in action I will remain a 'Liddite'
: > but I'd prefer to be known as a non Luddite
: >
: This from a person who believes in anecdotal evidence with no control
: case as proof???

I'm waiting for you to volunteer to act as a subject in a control case

: Look at the linked articles.

I did - and seeing as they don't take into consideration things like
population growth, changes in public transport etc I'll remein a sceptic
about pseudo science and manipulated statistics

:
: --
: Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
: "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
: - A. Derleth

--

---

a friendly growl from the bear on the Zephyr that roars

__ __ __ _ __
/__/ / /__/ /_ /_\ /_ /
/_ / _ / /__/ /__ / \ / \ ....Kawasaki Zephyr

barry j taylor < [email hidden] >
Ulysses #25871: netrider #549
Skype: ursusaustralis

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Barry Taylor wrote:
: > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: > news:[email hidden]...
: > : Barry Taylor wrote:
: > : > "Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
: > : > news:[email hidden]...
: > : >
: > : > : No reasonable person has denied that the Bicycle Foam Hat
can work
: > as a
: > : > : scratch and bump protector. To believe the Bicycle Foam Hat
: > provides
: > : > : significant protection against skull fracture and/or serious
brain
: > : > : injury indicates an ignorance of how little energy said hat
can
: > absorb.
: > : > :
: > : > : --
: > : > : Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
: > : > : "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all
people."
: > : > : - A. Derleth
: > : >
: > : > and once upon a time science had the statistics to prove that
the
: > world is
: > : > flat
: > : >
: > : Huh? No such event ever occurred. The belief in a flat world was
not
: > : obtained by scientific methods, but by religious superstition.
: >
: > that's what the next generation of scientists always argue
: >
: > : Most of the Liddite position is also based on a blind faith in the
: > : Bicycle Foam Hat that is not backed by proper scientific research.

nor is there any proper scientific research to prove that bicycle helmets
do not prevent serious head injury or death

what there is, is a large body of evidence that bicycle helmets have
prevented some serious head injuries and/or death

: >
: > if you weren't so serious that would be humorous if not ludicrous
: >
: No, what is ludicrous is the blind faith in a lightweight web of
: expanded polystyrene actually preventing serious head injury or death.

oh ye of little faith
pray that you never get to be the empirical evidence that it your unfaith
is misplaced

:
: > are you prepared to be the subject of a study to back up your claims
?
: > I am sure that I could find a legitimate science department at one
of the
: > local unviersities or technical institutes that would be prepared to
use you
: > and your head as a control for a study of the effectiveness of bicycle
: > helmets in reducing head injuries and brain damage
: >
: No, since the outcome is obvious in either case - with or without the
: foam bicycle hat.

obvious to you maybe - but then you have a closed mind
whereas I only had my eyes closed when I hit the dirt

:
: > BTWEMWTK what is a Liddite ?
: >
: A Liddite is a person with faith in the effectiveness of foam bicycle
: hats to prevent serious head injury or death.

guilty as charged
and that's why I have bought a new helmet to replace the one damaged in my
crash

---
bjt

a man of words and
not of deeds
is like a garden full of weeds.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------