M5 Carbon Lowracer - Buyer Beware!



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I don't know Bram, but you certainly fit the description of a pompous ass!

"bluphoton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dickwad, How would you feel if some asshole took your $7000 and delivered a product that is
> defective?
>
> Maybe you've never had the $7000 to spend on a bike!
>
>
> "harv" <harv*no_spam*@spininternet.com> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Yo bluephoton ( as in blue light special, Kmart shoppers?), you sound
like
> > the kinda guy or gal who can't eat in a restaraunt more than once
without
> > having the kitchen spit in your order. Bon Apetitie and happy trails.
> >
> >
> > "bluphoton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According
> > > to Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx
> > > bill that is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any
> > > costs associated with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie
> > > as I have yet to receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
> > >
> > > When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that
> > > lying thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are
> > > mine to handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff!
> > > Additionally, I've assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of
> > > Bram's deception.
> > >
> > > As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six
> > > months, and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises
> > > to deliver a product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from
> > > the crate. This frame is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs
> > > to me.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and
repair? I
> > > > assume your M5 came with a one year warranty as my steel LR did.
Seems
> > like
> > > > he is offering an extended warranty on the two year old bikes. You
could
> > > > probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is unreasonable. Your caution about
> > > > buyer beware is good advice on any new product,
but
> > > > especially on anything made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
> >
 
[email protected] ('BentRider) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I can understand your anger, but TREK wouldn't just REPLACE a carbon frame. They always tried to
> fix them first. Trust me... I broke four while I worked at a dealer AND was semi-sponsored b them.
> They still had to see the frame. The big T has a bit more cash to throw about than M5 does.
> Unfortunately for Trek, I did total all four of my OCLV's. Carbon is expensive to produce a whole
> frame but quite often, repairs can be much more economical. I think if you ask any major carbon
> fiber bicycle manifacturer you'll find that their policy is to return the frame for
> inspection/repair before replacing.
>
Bryan, I don't how much of a "repair" I would accept on a carbon fiber bike. Cabon fiber parts that
are assembled before the resin has "set up" form a "primary bond". A primary bond would be analogous
to a high quality TIG weld. A repair made after the original resin has cured would form a "secondary
bond". A secondary bond would be analogous to glueing two objects together. The integrity of a
secondary bond is extremely dependent on technique and surface preperation. In general, a primary
bond is almost always preferable to a secondary bond. So if the primary bond failed, it is far from
certain that a weaker secondary bond "repair" would provide a durable and permanent fix.
 
"Robert Siegel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> This sounds eerily familiar. A year or so back there were some angry newsgroup posts from owners
> who were very unhappy with their reportedly crumbling carbon Lightning R-84s and Lighting owner
> Tim Brummer's reportedly stonewalling their complaints. I have zero personal knowledge about this
> ... but I sure cancelled my plan to order a carbon R-84. Ended up with a Ti Rush. I spent the same
> $6,000 for a recumbent ... but I'm a happy owner.
> --
> Gator Bob Siegel
>

It also sounds the same as the lengthy thread last year from the guy who complained about not being
able to buy a Bacchetta by mail order. Also similar to the woman who refused to deal with RANS again
because they didn't answer an email. Problems are totally different but the vehemence expressed by
the commentator is the same. This is not to downplay the problem that Bluphoto is encountering. No
one would be happy about feeling they were taken for $7000. I think he accomplished his goal when he
posted his initial comment which warned us of the problem. I am sure someone considering an M5
purchase may reconsider based on his experience. I believe we can all thank him for that. But his
argument diminishes in effectiveness when it becomes a personal attack against that "asshole" or
that person who is full of "bull" because it shifts the spotlight from the problem, which I think
all of us agree ought to be addressed, to the mindset, motive and rationality of the speaker. In any
discussion it is always best to occupy the moral high ground when espousing one's position. I think
all of us sympathized with the speaker initially. But when the argument then becomes name calling
and character assasination it changes. Please let the experience speak for itself. It says loads. I
don't know, nor have I spoken with, Mr. Moens. But I would think there are many others out there,
including those who use his seat, who don't share in the speaker's personal characterization of him.
That doesn't reduce his responsibiliy to stand behind his product. But the purchaser knew when he
was buying that this was foreign built and he would have to deal directly with a foreign company. I
would hope they will rectify the situation. I understand where he is coming from. I would not like
to be in his position. But maybe, just maybe, the strident demand for a particular solution as
opposed to a consideration of alternative ones may have some influence on the problem? If I have
$7000 at stake, I don't know if I would be fretting about the shipping bill. But that is me. Good
luck on ironing this out, and thank you for putting me on notice about this company.

Mike S. St.Louis, Mo.
 
[email protected] (mike s) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> It also sounds the same as the lengthy thread last year from the guy who complained about not
> being able to buy a Bacchetta by mail order. Also similar to the woman who refused to deal with
> RANS again because they didn't answer an email. Problems are totally different but the vehemence
> expressed by the commentator is the same. This is not to downplay the problem that Bluphoto is
> encountering. No one would be happy about feeling they were taken for $7000. I think he
> accomplished his goal when he posted his initial comment which warned us of the problem. I am sure
> someone considering an M5 purchase may reconsider based on his experience. I believe we can all
> thank him for that. But his argument diminishes in effectiveness when it becomes a personal attack
> against that "asshole" or that person who is full of "bull" because it shifts the spotlight from
> the problem, which I think all of us agree ought to be addressed, to the mindset, motive and
> rationality of the speaker. In any discussion it is always best to occupy the moral high ground
> when espousing one's position. I think all of us sympathized with the speaker initially. But when
> the argument then becomes name calling and character assasination it changes.

Nonsense! He is ****** because he spent $7000. on a bike which proved defective and he now has to
deal with an asshole who won't stand behind it. I appreciate the personal attack and the high moral
ground be damned. All these posts that lack any emotional dimension might as well be written by
machines. Why not call a spade a spade? I don't know about you, but as a result of getting a human
message here I would not go anywhere near Mr. Moen and his Carbon M5 bike. If I listened to you I
would perhaps have second thoughts and who knows where I might end up. I totally sympathized with
the speaker initially, now and always and I thank him for giving us his mindset. What you call
character assassination I call courage. He has burned his bridges behind him by his level of
complaint and I for one greatly respect him for that.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Nonsense! He is ****** because he spent $7000. on a bike which proved defective and he now has to
> deal with an asshole who won't stand behind it. I appreciate the personal attack and the high
> moral ground be damned. All these posts that lack any emotional dimension might as well be written
> by machines. Why not call a spade a spade? I don't know about you, but as a result of getting a
> human message here I would not go anywhere near Mr. Moen and his Carbon M5 bike. If I listened to
> you I would perhaps have second thoughts and who knows where I might end up. I totally sympathized
> with the speaker initially, now and always and I thank him for giving us his mindset. What you
> call character assassination I call courage. He has burned his bridges behind him by his level of
> complaint and I for one greatly respect him for that.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

But you have only heard one side of the story?? A little vague for a categoric rejection of M5 I
would think.

Torben * trying to be objective * Scheel
 
Ye Gods, Dolan, we must be clones. I usually say what I gotta say, in plain English sentences. Let
the bodies strewn by the wayside be damned. ;-))

--
Gator Bob Siegel "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (mike s) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > It also sounds the same as the lengthy thread last year from the guy who complained about not
> > being able to buy a Bacchetta by mail order. Also similar to the woman who refused to deal with
> > RANS again because they didn't answer an email. Problems are totally different but the vehemence
> > expressed by the commentator is the same. This is not to downplay the problem that Bluphoto is
> > encountering. No one would be happy about feeling they were taken for $7000. I think he
> > accomplished his goal when he posted his initial comment which warned us of the problem. I am
> > sure someone considering an M5 purchase may reconsider based on his experience. I believe we can
> > all thank him for that. But his argument diminishes in effectiveness when it becomes a personal
> > attack against that "asshole" or that person who is full of "bull" because it shifts the
> > spotlight from the problem, which I think all of us agree ought to be addressed, to the mindset,
> > motive and rationality of the speaker. In any discussion it is always best to occupy the moral
> > high ground when espousing one's position. I think all of us sympathized with the speaker
> > initially. But when the argument then becomes name calling and character assasination it
> > changes.
>
> Nonsense! He is ****** because he spent $7000. on a bike which proved defective and he now has to
> deal with an asshole who won't stand behind it. I appreciate the personal attack and the high
> moral ground be damned. All these posts that lack any emotional dimension might as well be written
> by machines. Why not call a spade a spade? I don't know about you, but as a result of getting a
> human message here I would not go anywhere near Mr. Moen and his Carbon M5 bike. If I listened to
> you I would perhaps have second thoughts and who knows where I might end up. I totally sympathized
> with the speaker initially, now and always and I thank him for giving us his mindset. What you
> call character assassination I call courage. He has burned his bridges behind him by his level of
> complaint and I for one greatly respect him for that.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
> > What you call character assassination I call courage. He has burned his bridges behind him by
> > his level of complaint and I for one greatly respect him for that.

This is what is wrong with the U.S. Right or wrong, at least he was LOUD about it! U-S-A! U-S-A!

Now you all know how Jesse Ventura got elected.

S-proud to be from Mn, but scared of some of his former neighbors - J

Torben, I can't remember where you live, but this should give you some insight into our culture...
 
"Torben Scheel" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> But you have only heard one side of the story?? A little vague for a categoric rejection of M5 I
> would think.
>
> Torben * trying to be objective * Scheel

I understand Eli perfectly. The one I don't understand is this Moen character. I would never want to
be told after spending $7000. on a bike that any problems I am having with the bike are now mine to
handle. If Wal-Mart wants to say something like that to me after I have spent $70. on one of their
bikes, that is OK by me - but $7000.? But of course you are right about objectivity and I am waiting
for Moen to give his side of the story.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
[email protected] (Seth Jayson) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> > > What you call character assassination I call courage. He has burned his bridges behind him by
> > > his level of complaint and I for one greatly respect him for that.
>
> This is what is wrong with the U.S. Right or wrong, at least he was LOUD about it! U-S-A! U-S-A!
>
> Now you all know how Jesse Ventura got elected.
>
> S-proud to be from Mn, but scared of some of his former neighbors - J
>
> Torben, I can't remember where you live, but this should give you some insight into our culture...

The US, and most of the rest of the world I suspect, are full of sheep, those who do not complain or
else complain so mildly that they are objects of ridicule. It is better to complain like a roaring
lion than ba-ba like a sheep. The danger of this is that you so ******** the one you are complaining
to that they he would rather be dead than help you with your problem. So be it! There is immense
satisfaction in letting off some steam rather than holding it in and thereby not being able to sleep
nights. Eli may or may not be correct in his complaint but the point is that he thinks he is correct
and he has acted accordingly. I have nothing but admiration and respect for how he has dealt with
the matter. I wish the world were full of Elis.

Non-professional politicians like Ventura generally make a mess of everything sooner or later but he
was nonetheless a breath of fresh air compared to what we had been putting up with previously here
in Minnesota. Looks like the same thing may soon happen in California. But if I go on and on about
this I will be off-topic and I promised this newsgroup that I would never do that unless the thread
were so labeled.

As to my being from Minnesota, well, everyone has to be from somewhere. I have never understood some
of the names that others are using to identify themselves to this newsgroup. As far as I know none
of us here are anonymous and who wants or needs to be anyway. I think it is interesting to know
where folks are from and what their real names are. I much prefer to respond to people with real
names from real places.

Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is a
complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the world to
know it. It is my impression that the over whelming majority of members of this newsgroup are
Americans and for that reason alone I very much enjoy reading what non-Americans have to say about
recumbents and other matters.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The US, and most of the rest of the world I suspect, are full of sheep, those who do not complain
> or else complain so mildly that they are objects of ridicule. It is better to complain like a
> roaring lion than ba-ba like a sheep. The danger of this is that you so ******** the one you are
> complaining to that they he would rather be dead than help you with your problem. So be it! There
> is immense satisfaction in letting off some steam rather than holding it in and thereby not being
> able to sleep nights. Eli may or may not be correct in his complaint but the point is that he
> thinks he is correct and he has acted accordingly. I have nothing but admiration and respect for
> how he has dealt with the matter. I wish the world were full of Elis.

True although sometimes they let off steam when there is no problem (that isn't the case here)

> Non-professional politicians like Ventura generally make a mess of everything sooner or later but
> he was nonetheless a breath of fresh air compared to what we had been putting up with previously
> here in Minnesota.

Agreed although someone like Ventura can't do much since the legislature is who makes the laws, same
thing that would have happened if Perot has won in 1992

> Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is a
> complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the world
> to know it. It is my impression that the over whelming majority of members of this newsgroup are
> Americans and for that reason alone I very much enjoy reading what non-Americans have to say about
> recumbents and other matters.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Agreed, it is hard to recommend a bike when it isn't offered in the country they live in :)

Mark Leuck - Texas
 
Don't get me wrong Ed, I like to ***** as much as the next guy. A lot more, I'll bet. But there's a
time for *****ing and a time for diplomacy. To suggest that anyone's angry outbursts are to be
respected is downright silly.

Did you say the same thing about sheep and complaining when there were a few thousand people
protesting the war in Iraq, in the face of overwhelming opposition from the rest of the country?

How 'bout a more extreme example? Would you congratulate a dozen ******-off middle-easterners for
finally taking a stand against a system and government (US) that, they believe, has held them down
their whole lives? Better they do something, like fly an airplane into a building or two, than
remain sheep like the rest of their countrymen?

Personally, I think these M5 owners have a lot to be angry about, if what they report is true. That
doesn't mean that splattering Bram in this newsgroup is the best, or even a decent way to approach
the problem. I'm sure it felt good, just like I got some satisfaction in flipping off that *******
who almost hit me with his giant buick last night. Of course, I later realized that that was a
stupid thing to do.

> The US, and most of the rest of the world I suspect, are full of sheep, those who do not complain
> or else complain so mildly that they are objects of ridicule. It is better to complain like a
> roaring lion than ba-ba like a sheep.
 
[email protected] (Seth Jayson) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Don't get me wrong Ed, I like to ***** as much as the next guy. A lot more, I'll bet. But there's
> a time for *****ing and a time for diplomacy. To suggest that anyone's angry outbursts are to be
> respected is downright silly.

It seems that I recall Eli saying that he spent something like 6 months building up to his outrage.
That was the period of "diplomacy", after which came the "outburst". However, I would characterize
his reaction as more controlled anger than outburst. After all, he is not going after this Moen
character with a baseball bat is he?

> Did you say the same thing about sheep and complaining when there were a few thousand people
> protesting the war in Iraq, in the face of overwhelming opposition from the rest of the country?

Liberal extremist left-wing wacko nuts are never sheep. They bray like jackasses and make a super
fuss about everything when they don't get their way.

> How 'bout a more extreme example? Would you congratulate a dozen ******-off middle-easterners for
> finally taking a stand against a system and government (US) that, they believe, has held them down
> their whole lives? Better they do something, like fly an airplane into a building or two, than
> remain sheep like the rest of their countrymen?

Those poor benighted bastards living under tyrannical governments in the Middle East ought to take
their stand against their own governments and not against the US which has absolutely nothing to do
with their misery and discontent. But in any event, complaining loudly and acting criminally are two
entirely different things.

> Personally, I think these M5 owners have a lot to be angry about, if what they report is true.
> That doesn't mean that splattering Bram in this newsgroup is the best, or even a decent way to
> approach the problem. I'm sure it felt good, just like I got some satisfaction in flipping off
> that ******* who almost hit me with his giant buick last night. Of course, I later realized that
> that was a stupid thing to do.

I say roar like a lion when offended. All that is necessary for evil to prevail is that good people
do nothing. Flipping off a ******* is nothing compared to what I would like to do sometimes. But you
are right, it is better not to do it.

I have been told by an expert that 1 out of 10 people are crazy at any given time and this must be
taken into account. The important thing is not to go crazy ourselves dealing with the crazies. I
ride my bike as much for mental reasons as I do for physical reasons. It is all therapy to keep me
sane and sound.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Edward Dolan wrote:

> Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is a
> complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the world
> to know it.

I thought that the domain doofers ending .uk, and the word "British", in my .sig were enough of a
giveaway. Clearly not...

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ BRITON
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> > Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is a
> > complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the world
> > to know it.

Okay

Mikael Outer Mongolia
 
On 8 Aug 2003 11:03:02 -0700, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
>Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is a
>complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the world to
>know it. It is my impression that the over whelming majority of members of this newsgroup are
>Americans and for that reason alone I very much enjoy reading what non-Americans have to say about
>recumbents and other matters.

Why do you think non-Americans WANT to be treated differently? I'm not here as a representative of
my country, I'm here as just another 'bent lover. In fact you'd be very wrong to assume that my
views are represenative of people in my country. I always mention my location when I think it is
relevant to the discussion or when people ask about my country in particular, but otherwise I don't
see why it matters.

- just Ken Ken Kobayashi [email protected] http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/
 
"Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> > Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > > Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is
> > > a complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the
> > > world to know it.
>
> Okay
>
> Mikael Outer Mongolia

No, you can't fool me. I know you are from one of those small Scandinavian countries which are about
the size of our Midwestern states. The trouble is I can never remember which one of those small
Scandinavian countries you are from. Denmark, I think?

Everyone knows where Dave Larrington is from in as much as he advertises the fact on his every
posting. But some of the others from the UK are not so outspoken. They should be as I believe about
95% of the postings to ARBR are from Americans. I have taken my cue partially from Mr. Tom Sherman.
He identifies his town (Quad Cities - probably Moline) and state (Illinois). As I am from a small
town I figure the state I am from is all anyone ever has to know. But why not know it? And why not
know about Denmark if that is where you are from? None of this location stuff is vital information
but it is interesting nonetheless, at least to me.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Edward Dolan must be edykated coz e writed:

> "Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is a
>>>> complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the
>>>> world to know it.
>>
>> Okay
>>
>> Mikael Outer Mongolia
>
> No, you can't fool me. I know you are from one of those small Scandinavian countries which are
> about the size of our Midwestern states. The trouble is I can never remember which one of those
> small Scandinavian countries you are from. Denmark, I think?
>
> Everyone knows where Dave Larrington is from in as much as he advertises the fact on his every
> posting. But some of the others from the UK are not so outspoken. They should be as I believe
> about 95% of the postings to ARBR are from Americans. I have taken my cue partially from Mr. Tom
> Sherman. He identifies his town (Quad Cities - probably Moline) and state (Illinois). As I am from
> a small town I figure the state I am from is all anyone ever has to know. But why not know it? And
> why not know about Denmark if that is where you are from? None of this location stuff is vital
> information but it is interesting nonetheless, at least to me.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

I'm not in the USA, you colonists can work the rest out.

Ian
 
"Ian" skrev

> I'm not in the USA, you colonists can work the rest out.

Your name sounds suspiciously french to me.

Mikael

55.40N 12.35E
 
Ken Kobayashi <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> On 8 Aug 2003 11:03:02 -0700, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
> >Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is a
> >complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the world
> >to know it. It is my impression that the over whelming majority of members of this newsgroup are
> >Americans and for that reason alone I very much enjoy reading what non-Americans have to say
> >about recumbents and other matters.
>
> Why do you think non-Americans WANT to be treated differently? I'm not here as a representative of
> my country, I'm here as just another 'bent lover. In fact you'd be very wrong to assume that my
> views are represenative of people in my country. I always mention my location when I think it is
> relevant to the discussion or when people ask about my country in particular, but otherwise I
> don't see why it matters.
>
> - just Ken Ken Kobayashi [email protected] http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/

It always matters where someone is from. I see you are from Japan. Your views on recumbents and
everything else under the sun are going to be somewhat influenced by the fact that you are Japanese
just as my views are going to be influenced somewhat by the fact that I am an American from the
Upper Midwest.

Have you ever noticed how much chit-chat goes on in this newsgroup that has very little if anything
to do with recumbents? You are not as "guilty" of this as some others, but it is just human nature
to want to know a bit about others that we are relating to however casually.
Mr. Joshua Goldberg of Toronto, Canada has complained to this

nature about myself. What do you think of that I wonder? I think it is enough that I tell one and
all that I am from Minnesota.

Now that I know you are Ken Kobayashi from Japan it will slightly influence how I will relate to
you. How could it not? We are not yet one world and I don't think we ever will be, at least not in
my lifetime.

My posts are sui generis as far as I am concerned but when you find yourself repeatedly responding
to someone you can't help but treat that person somewhat differently than you otherwise would. Most
people like to be treated differently if possible and a place location helps make it possible. For
instance, I can't think of Mr. Tom Sherman without thinking of the Quad Cities (Illinois Side). Is
it relevant? Maybe not but it sure helps me to identify him. He has acquired personality and is not
just a name, like for example just Ken would be.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Ian" skrev
>
> > I'm not in the USA, you colonists can work the rest out.
>
> Your name sounds suspiciously french to me.
>
> Mikael
>
> 55.40N 12.35E

No, I am not going to look up those coordinates (but must be Sjaelland). I know there is more to
Denmark than Copenhagen but if you don't want to tell me for reasons of your own that is OK by me.

By the way, I think Ian is a common Irish name but it is probably common in England too. Ian? But
speaking of the French, any Frenchmen in this newsgroup? I suspect not as they would never deign to
speak and/or write in any other language than French.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
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