M5 Carbon Lowracer - Buyer Beware!



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Edward Dolan must be edykated coz e writed:

> "Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> "Ian" skrev
>>
>>> I'm not in the USA, you colonists can work the rest out.
>>
>> Your name sounds suspiciously french to me.
>>
>> Mikael
>>
>> 55.40N 12.35E
>
> No, I am not going to look up those coordinates (but must be Sjaelland). I know there is more to
> Denmark than Copenhagen but if you don't want to tell me for reasons of your own that is OK by me.
>
> By the way, I think Ian is a common Irish name but it is probably common in England too. Ian? But
> speaking of the French, any Frenchmen in this newsgroup? I suspect not as they would never deign
> to speak and/or write in any other language than French.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
I'm almost English and am definitely in England as some of my previous posts will testify.

Ian
 
I must tell everyone that posting information to these newsgroups is a great way to inform other
consumers about vendors - both good and bad. Today, following weeks of silence from Bram, I received
an email from Bram. I'll include his message, as well as my reply, with this posting.

-----Original Message----- From: M5-Ligfietsen [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday,
August 13, 2003 8:18 AM To: eli Subject: Re: Slight problems...

Eli,

Have gone through all the E-mails and seen the anynomous!!!!!!!!! writings from you on a
certain website.

This makes very clear that it doesn't make any sense to communicate any further from now on with
people acting like you.

So pack the complete bike proper and send it back with Fedex , add your bank data etc. and we will
return you the money.We all here are really happy to don't have shouting and with mud throwing
people like you as a customer anymore.

Bram Moens

M5 Recumbents & Handbikes

My reply:

Bram,

trust you. You sold me a product that you knew was defective for two years. Then you send a letter
telling me if I don't respond in eight days, repairs to the M5 would be billed to me! I believe you
have this scenario backwards.

First you return my money and then I'll return the bike. Additionally, upon receipt of my money:
1. I'll inform the newsgroups of your efforts to satisfy this customer.
2. I'll notify the FTC (Federal Trace Commission - their job is to protect US citizens from
international fraud) you've refunded my money. 3. I'll ask that the complaint filed against your
fine organization by my international trade attorney be removed from your record. 4. I'll notify
the fine folks at Interbike and VNU Expositions of your decision to refund my money. 5. The new
www.M5_Ripoff.org website is almost ready! When I receive my money, I'll discontinue work on its
construction.

Welcome to marketing in the US. <Smile> How many marketing dollars do you feel are required to
overcome such publicity?

Eli

My bank:
 
[email protected] (bluphoton) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> I must tell everyone that posting information to these newsgroups is a great way to inform other
> consumers about vendors - both good and bad. Today, following weeks of silence from Bram, I
> received an email from Bram. I'll include his message, as well as my reply, with this posting.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: M5-Ligfietsen [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday,
> August 13, 2003 8:18 AM To: eli Subject: Re: Slight problems...
>
> Eli,
>
> Have gone through all the E-mails and seen the anynomous!!!!!!!!! writings from you on a certain
> website.
>
> This makes very clear that it doesn't make any sense to communicate any further from now on with
> people acting like you.
>
> So pack the complete bike proper and send it back with Fedex , add your bank data etc. and we will
> return you the money.We all here are really happy to don't have shouting and with mud throwing
> people like you as a customer anymore.
>
> Bram Moens
>
>
>
> M5 Recumbents & Handbikes
>
> My reply:
>
> Bram,

> trust you. You sold me a product that you knew was defective for two years. Then you send a letter
> telling me if I don't respond in eight days, repairs to the M5 would be billed to me! I believe
> you have this scenario backwards.
>
> First you return my money and then I'll return the bike. Additionally, upon receipt of my money:
> 1. I'll inform the newsgroups of your efforts to satisfy this customer.
> 2. I'll notify the FTC (Federal Trace Commission - their job is to protect US citizens from
> international fraud) you've refunded my money. 3. I'll ask that the complaint filed against
> your fine organization by my international trade attorney be removed from your record. 4. I'll
> notify the fine folks at Interbike and VNU Expositions of your decision to refund my money. 5.
> The new www.M5_Ripoff.org website is almost ready! When I receive my money, I'll discontinue
> work on its construction.
>
> Welcome to marketing in the US. <Smile> How many marketing dollars do you feel are required to
> overcome such publicity?
>
> Eli

Eli, you make me proud to be an American. I could tell from your initial post on this subject and
your subsequent posts that this character Bram Moens was an asshole and he confirmed it with his
email to you. Congratulations on a battle well fought. The only thing I am going to miss is your new
website www.M5_Ripoff.org as I was so looking forward to it. You are one smart cookie to ask for
your money back first and then he gets back his junk bike. May you live long and prosper!

Best Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Edward Dolan must be edykated coz e writed:
>
> Eli, you make me proud to be an American. I could tell from your initial post on this subject and
> your subsequent posts that this character Bram Moens was an asshole and he confirmed it with his
> email to you. Congratulations on a battle well fought. The only thing I am going to miss is your
> new website www.M5_Ripoff.org as I was so looking forward to it. You are one smart cookie to ask
> for your money back first and then he gets back his junk bike. May you live long and prosper!
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Ed, I take it all back, you seem to have mastered English sarcasm after all!

Ian
 
Ian, or Dave L., if you're lurking about, how would you blokes across the pond tell someone he's a
smarmy toady and make it sound like a huge complement? "Ian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BB61053E.C979%[email protected]...
> Edward Dolan must be edykated coz e writed:
> >
> > Eli, you make me proud to be an American. I could tell from your initial post on this subject
> > and your subsequent posts that this character Bram Moens was an asshole and he confirmed it with
> > his email to you. Congratulations on a battle well fought. The only thing I am going to miss is
> > your new website www.M5_Ripoff.org as I was so looking forward to it. You are one smart cookie
> > to ask for your money back first and then he gets back his junk bike. May you live long and
> > prosper!
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>
> Ed, I take it all back, you seem to have mastered English sarcasm after
all!
>
> Ian
 
Ian <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BB61053E.C979%[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan must be edykated coz e writed:
> >
> > Eli, you make me proud to be an American. I could tell from your initial post on this subject
> > and your subsequent posts that this character Bram Moens was an asshole and he confirmed it with
> > his email to you. Congratulations on a battle well fought. The only thing I am going to miss is
> > your new website www.M5_Ripoff.org as I was so looking forward to it. You are one smart cookie
> > to ask for your money back first and then he gets back his junk bike. May you live long and
> > prosper!
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>
> Ed, I take it all back, you seem to have mastered English sarcasm after all!
>
> Ian

What is this sarcasm business? I have never been more sincere and honest about anything in my life
than what I wrote above. Moreover, I am willing to defend every syllable if necessary. You are too
devious by far to be looking for anything ulterior. I pride myself on my directness above all and to
say exactly what I think without a lot of hang-ups about complexity.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
harv must be edykated coz e writed:

> Ian, or Dave L., if you're lurking about, how would you blokes across the pond tell someone he's a
> smarmy toady and make it sound like a huge complement? "Ian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:BB61053E.C979%[email protected]...
>> Edward Dolan must be edykated coz e writed:
>>>
>>> Eli, you make me proud to be an American. I could tell from your initial post on this subject
>>> and your subsequent posts that this character Bram Moens was an asshole and he confirmed it with
>>> his email to you. Congratulations on a battle well fought. The only thing I am going to miss is
>>> your new website www.M5_Ripoff.org as I was so looking forward to it. You are one smart cookie
>>> to ask for your money back first and then he gets back his junk bike. May you live long and
>>> prosper!
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>>
>> Ed, I take it all back, you seem to have mastered English sarcasm after
> all!
>>
>> Ian
>>
>
>
Exactly the way Ed said it.

Ian
 
Ian <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BB61B90C.CAA6%[email protected]>...

> harv must be edykated coz e writed:

Ian must be an idiot because he can't spell, but Harv must be an idiot too for not taking offense at
the insult (are you edykated Harv?).

> > Ian, or Dave L., if you're lurking about, how would you blokes across the pond tell someone he's
> > a smarmy toady and make it sound like a huge complement?

> Exactly the way Ed said it.
>
> Ian

As always a man a few words, redundant and boring. You and Harv ought to get together for a
love feast. You could spend at least several seconds complimenting one another before you ran
out of words.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
If I were to buy a new MTB, I probably would look at one. Not the road bike though. Never liked the
way they felt.

On 5 Aug 2003 13:06:07 -0700, [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote:

>Bryan, Thanks for your comment. Would you purchase a Trek today? Kestrel replaced my carbon frame
>in three days in 1987.
>
>Eli
>
>
>[email protected] ('BentRider) wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> I can understand your anger, but TREK wouldn't just REPLACE a carbon frame. They always tried to
>> fix them first. Trust me... I broke four while I worked at a dealer AND was semi-sponsored b
>> them. They still had to see the frame. The big T has a bit more cash to throw about than M5 does.
>> Unfortunately for Trek, I did total all four of my OCLV's. Carbon is expensive to produce a whole
>> frame but quite often, repairs can be much more economical. I think if you ask any major carbon
>> fiber bicycle manifacturer you'll find that their policy is to return the frame for
>> inspection/repair before replacing.
>>
>> On 30 Jul 2003 07:17:04 -0700, [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote:
>>
>> >I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According
>> >to Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill
>> >that is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs
>> >associated with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I
>> >have yet to receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
>> >
>> >When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
>> >thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
>> >handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
>> >assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.
>> >
>> >As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six
>> >months, and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises to
>> >deliver a product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from the
>> >crate. This frame is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs to me.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:<[email protected]>...
>> >> Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came
>> >> with a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems like he is offering an extended warranty on
>> >> the two year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is
>> >> unreasonable. Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on any new product, but
>> >> especially on anything made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
>> >>
>>
>> Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com
 
Tek OCLV's are actually a bonded tube set. Not one piece. They'd only repair if they could simply
replace a tube. If it was more than that they trashed it. I always broke mine REAL good. Never got a
repair. Had to throw them all away

On 5 Aug 2003 19:29:47 -0700, [email protected] (Steve in SC) wrote:

>[email protected] ('BentRider) wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> I can understand your anger, but TREK wouldn't just REPLACE a carbon frame. They always tried to
>> fix them first. Trust me... I broke four while I worked at a dealer AND was semi-sponsored b
>> them. They still had to see the frame. The big T has a bit more cash to throw about than M5 does.
>> Unfortunately for Trek, I did total all four of my OCLV's. Carbon is expensive to produce a whole
>> frame but quite often, repairs can be much more economical. I think if you ask any major carbon
>> fiber bicycle manifacturer you'll find that their policy is to return the frame for
>> inspection/repair before replacing.
>>
>Bryan, I don't how much of a "repair" I would accept on a carbon fiber bike. Cabon fiber parts that
>are assembled before the resin has "set up" form a "primary bond". A primary bond would be
>analogous to a high quality TIG weld. A repair made after the original resin has cured would form a
>"secondary bond". A secondary bond would be analogous to glueing two objects together. The
>integrity of a secondary bond is extremely dependent on technique and surface preperation. In
>general, a primary bond is almost always preferable to a secondary bond. So if the primary bond
>failed, it is far from certain that a weaker secondary bond "repair" would provide a durable and
>permanent fix.

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com
 
Ian <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<BB61053E.C979%[email protected]>...
> Edward Dolan must be edykated coz e writed:
> >
> > Eli, you make me proud to be an American. I could tell from your initial post on this subject
> > and your subsequent posts that this character Bram Moens was an asshole and he confirmed it with
> > his email to you. Congratulations on a battle well fought. The only thing I am going to miss is
> > your new website www.M5_Ripoff.org as I was so looking forward to it. You are one smart cookie
> > to ask for your money back first and then he gets back his junk bike. May you live long and
> > prosper!
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>
> Ed, I take it all back, you seem to have mastered English sarcasm after all!
>
> Ian

Hey guys, you're going to love this email I just received from Bram. I'll include my reply for kicks
and giggles:

Taken from Bram's email to me:

"Eli,

This is exactly why the Americans make themselves so beloved in the rest of the world I think.

If you are goiing on with acting and planning like this we will not doubt to publish our
conversation on the website as well, so people can judge by their own what to think about
this issue.

Bram"

I forgot to mention whenever I inform Bram of problems, he always attacks the Americans as in his
first sentence. Does Bram have problems with me or does he have problems with all Americans? Here
is my reply:

Bram, You just keep on writing Bozo. With a Euro-centric attitude like yours, marketing Bram and his
M5 trash to the US consumer is a losing effort and will certainly cost you $$$$. Is your apparent
dislike of the Americans the result of jealousy/envy of us Americans? <Smile>

Let's allow the beloved American consumer decide if engaging in capitalistic exchange with you is a
'win-win' situation. At the very least, my efforts will certainly cause potential customers to
carefully consider their options for carbon low riders, especially those manufactured abroad.

It costs me nothing to post true information about you and your deception. Furthermore, there are
two other local M5 owners who are not only very dissatisfied with their M5s, but also are willing to
tell others of their displeasure for you and your product.

Just think, all you have to do to end my postings is either refund my money, or send a non-defective
M5 frame and nose piece with the redesigned bottom bracket. Simple!

Love and kisses, Eli

PS: Let the games begin.
 
[email protected] (mike s) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Robert Siegel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > This sounds eerily familiar. A year or so back there were some angry newsgroup posts from owners
> > who were very unhappy with their reportedly crumbling carbon Lightning R-84s and Lighting owner
> > Tim Brummer's reportedly stonewalling their complaints. I have zero personal knowledge about
> > this ... but I sure cancelled my plan to order a carbon R-84. Ended up with a Ti Rush. I spent
> > the same $6,000 for a recumbent ... but I'm a happy owner.
> > --
> > Gator Bob Siegel
> >
>
> It also sounds the same as the lengthy thread last year from the guy who complained about not
> being able to buy a Bacchetta by mail order. Also similar to the woman who refused to deal with
> RANS again because they didn't answer an email. Problems are totally different but the vehemence
> expressed by the commentator is the same. This is not to downplay the problem that Bluphoto is
> encountering. No one would be happy about feeling they were taken for $7000. I think he
> accomplished his goal when he posted his initial comment which warned us of the problem. I am sure
> someone considering an M5 purchase may reconsider based on his experience. I believe we can all
> thank him for that. But his argument diminishes in effectiveness when it becomes a personal attack
> against that "asshole" or that person who is full of "bull" because it shifts the spotlight from
> the problem, which I think all of us agree ought to be addressed, to the mindset, motive and
> rationality of the speaker. In any discussion it is always best to occupy the moral high ground
> when espousing one's position. I think all of us sympathized with the speaker initially. But when
> the argument then becomes name calling and character assasination it changes. Please let the
> experience speak for itself. It says loads. I don't know, nor have I spoken with, Mr. Moens. But I
> would think there are many others out there, including those who use his seat, who don't share in
> the speaker's personal characterization of him. That doesn't reduce his responsibiliy to stand
> behind his product. But the purchaser knew when he was buying that this was foreign built and he
> would have to deal directly with a foreign company. I would hope they will rectify the situation.
> I understand where he is coming from. I would not like to be in his position. But maybe, just
> maybe, the strident demand for a particular solution as opposed to a consideration of alternative
> ones may have some influence on the problem? If I have $7000 at stake, I don't know if I would be
> fretting about the shipping bill. But that is me. Good luck on ironing this out, and thank you for
> putting me on notice about this company.
>
> Mike S. St.Louis, Mo.

Mike, You are certainly reasonable in your distaste for such tactics. Please pardon my personal
attacks on Bram. I first attempted to remedy this situation by writing to Bram as I would write to a
friend. However I've written Bram for six months attempting to remedy the situation and the only
replies I receive from Bram are when I use expletives and personal attacks.

I'm sorry to utilize such techniques. Thus far 'rude and crude' is the only manner to generate some
reply from Bram.

Eli
 
"Torben Scheel" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Nonsense! He is ****** because he spent $7000. on a bike which proved defective and he now has
> > to deal with an asshole who won't stand behind it. I appreciate the personal attack and the high
> > moral ground be damned. All these posts that lack any emotional dimension might as well be
> > written by machines. Why not call a spade a spade? I don't know about you, but as a result of
> > getting a human message here I would not go anywhere near Mr. Moen and his Carbon M5 bike. If I
> > listened to you I would perhaps have second thoughts and who knows where I might end up. I
> > totally sympathized with the speaker initially, now and always and I thank him for giving us his
> > mindset. What you call character assassination I call courage. He has burned his bridges behind
> > him by his level of complaint and I for one greatly respect him for that.
> >
> > Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Guys, You are correct - you've only heard one side of the story. Bram is well aware where I'm
posting. He can reply at any time. Remember - Bram sold three of his M5s to riders in New Orleans.
All three of us experienced the same problems. Bram knows the other owners are less than happy with
their purchase. I think Bram wants to run for cover.

I'm not asking for a categorical rejection of M5. I'm attempting to:
1. Educate the American consumer about international trade and our total lack of any recourse.
2. Inform the US consumer of the problems that exist, and have existed, with the M5 for over
two years.
3. Motivate Bram to repair the bugs and stand behind his product, or refund my money.

Eli

>
> But you have only heard one side of the story?? A little vague for a categoric rejection of M5 I
> would think.
>
> Torben * trying to be objective * Scheel
 
[email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Seth Jayson) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > > > What you call character assassination I call courage. He has burned his bridges behind him
> > > > by his level of complaint and I for one greatly respect him for that.
> >
> > This is what is wrong with the U.S. Right or wrong, at least he was LOUD about it! U-S-A! U-S-A!
> >
> > Now you all know how Jesse Ventura got elected.
> >
> > S-proud to be from Mn, but scared of some of his former neighbors - J
> >
> > Torben, I can't remember where you live, but this should give you some insight into our
> > culture...
>
> The US, and most of the rest of the world I suspect, are full of sheep, those who do not complain
> or else complain so mildly that they are objects of ridicule. It is better to complain like a
> roaring lion than ba-ba like a sheep. The danger of this is that you so ******** the one you are
> complaining to that they he would rather be dead than help you with your problem. So be it! There
> is immense satisfaction in letting off some steam rather than holding it in and thereby not being
> able to sleep nights. Eli may or may not be correct in his complaint but the point is that he
> thinks he is correct and he has acted accordingly. I have nothing but admiration and respect for
> how he has dealt with the matter. I wish the world were full of Elis.
>
> Non-professional politicians like Ventura generally make a mess of everything sooner or later but
> he was nonetheless a breath of fresh air compared to what we had been putting up with previously
> here in Minnesota. Looks like the same thing may soon happen in California. But if I go on and on
> about this I will be off-topic and I promised this newsgroup that I would never do that unless the
> thread were so labeled.
>
> As to my being from Minnesota, well, everyone has to be from somewhere. I have never understood
> some of the names that others are using to identify themselves to this newsgroup. As far as I know
> none of us here are anonymous and who wants or needs to be anyway. I think it is interesting to
> know where folks are from and what their real names are. I much prefer to respond to people with
> real names from real places.
>
> Why the Europeans on this newsgroup do not identify the countries from which they are from is a
> complete mystery to me. I think if I were from the UK, Denmark or Finland I would want the world
> to know it. It is my impression that the over whelming majority of members of this newsgroup are
> Americans and for that reason alone I very much enjoy reading what non-Americans have to say about
> recumbents and other matters.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Ed, You are correct. Maybe I'm totally insane and the M5 is a well designed machine. Anyone can
inspect the three bikes or question the three M5 owners in question. We ride atop the Mississippi
River levee between Audubon and Armond Plantation most every morning at sunrise.

Eli
 
[email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Seth Jayson) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Don't get me wrong Ed, I like to ***** as much as the next guy. A lot more, I'll bet. But
> > there's a time for *****ing and a time for diplomacy. To suggest that anyone's angry outbursts
> > are to be respected is downright silly.
>
> It seems that I recall Eli saying that he spent something like 6 months building up to his
> outrage. That was the period of "diplomacy", after which came the "outburst". However, I would
> characterize his reaction as more controlled anger than outburst. After all, he is not going after
> this Moen character with a baseball bat is he?
>
> > Did you say the same thing about sheep and complaining when there were a few thousand people
> > protesting the war in Iraq, in the face of overwhelming opposition from the rest of the country?
>
> Liberal extremist left-wing wacko nuts are never sheep. They bray like jackasses and make a super
> fuss about everything when they don't get their way.
>
> > How 'bout a more extreme example? Would you congratulate a dozen ******-off middle-easterners
> > for finally taking a stand against a system and government (US) that, they believe, has held
> > them down their whole lives? Better they do something, like fly an airplane into a building or
> > two, than remain sheep like the rest of their countrymen?
>
> Those poor benighted bastards living under tyrannical governments in the Middle East ought to take
> their stand against their own governments and not against the US which has absolutely nothing to
> do with their misery and discontent. But in any event, complaining loudly and acting criminally
> are two entirely different things.
>
> > Personally, I think these M5 owners have a lot to be angry about, if what they report is true.
> > That doesn't mean that splattering Bram in this newsgroup is the best, or even a decent way to
> > approach the problem. I'm sure it felt good, just like I got some satisfaction in flipping off
> > that ******* who almost hit me with his giant buick last night. Of course, I later realized that
> > that was a stupid thing to do.
>
> I say roar like a lion when offended. All that is necessary for evil to prevail is that good
> people do nothing. Flipping off a ******* is nothing compared to what I would like to do
> sometimes. But you are right, it is better not to do it.
>
> I have been told by an expert that 1 out of 10 people are crazy at any given time and this must be
> taken into account. The important thing is not to go crazy ourselves dealing with the crazies. I
> ride my bike as much for mental reasons as I do for physical reasons. It is all therapy to keep me
> sane and sound.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

If I could find that asshole, I wouldn't require a baseball bat!

Eli
 
[email protected] (bluphoton) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Ed, You are correct. Maybe I'm totally insane and the M5 is a well designed machine. Anyone can
> inspect the three bikes or question the three M5 owners in question. We ride atop the Mississippi
> River levee between Audubon and Armond Plantation most every morning at sunrise.
>

>
> Eli

Hang in there Eli, we are all on your side. One thing is for sure, this Moen character won't be
selling any more $7000. M5's to anyone who follows this forum.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
[email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Ed, You are correct. Maybe I'm totally insane and the M5 is a well designed machine. Anyone can
> > inspect the three bikes or question the three M5 owners in question. We ride atop the
> > Mississippi River levee between Audubon and Armond Plantation most every morning at sunrise.
> >

> >
> > Eli
>
> Hang in there Eli, we are all on your side. One thing is for sure, this Moen character won't be
> selling any more $7000. M5's to anyone who follows this forum.
>

Ed, Thanks for the support. In prior emails, did you notice how Bram refers to Americans? Did you
catch an attitude? Today I received more email from Bram. This newsgroup is having an effect. Below
is Bram's latest attempt to remedy his situation. Some may say he's not a very humble human. Any
how, today's edition follows:

Eli,

It is indeed simple.

I do not understand why you spend that much anger and time on this matter.

Offcourse I understand that you want to have a quality product for your money, that is why we
offered to have the bike to be picked up for free (two ways!!) and have the quality checked and
where necessary replaced!! All this without any costs What do you mean? NO SERVICE!!!!!???????????

(First offer)

On this offer you didn't want to go on as far as I know (this was during my vacation)

Second offer/attempt: I proposed the money refund which you refused (you did not trust...........)

Third attempt: Money refund from an account of a third impartial party; as soon as the bike has been
received. This you did not trust either.

By offering this we have given even more guarantees then we are legally obligated to.

There is absolute not one single firm in the whole world (including the USA) which would refund
until the product has been returned, AND YOU KNOW THAT.

If, unless these proposals to solve this case on a decent way, you go on with refusing, we will
certainly publish these bare facts and your nice correspondence towards us, on Google and related
stuff newsgroups and inform the (related) computerbusiness you are working in as well.

Bram

Notice he thretens to attack my computer business. <Hee Hee> I've been involved in several business
throughout my life, always based in New Orleans. My reputation speaks for itself. My successful
computer business is now ten years old. I look my clients in the eye almost daily. The success of my
business, as well as any business, depends on integrity. Period.

I conduct business on a handshake. It is certainly an efficient, win-win situation for both my
clients, as well as my organization. It's an economic law that the cornerstone of capitalism is
trust. Without trust captialism fails. However, there are some who do not operate their businesses
with such wisdom!

Here's my reply to Bram's email:

Dear asshole Bram,

of ~$7000.00 by selling me a defective product that you knew was defective for years before you
shipped the trash. Now you want to repair the ****? What a generous offer. Am I supposed to be
happy? So far I think you, your product, and your offers suck. Put yourself in my position. What
would you do - bend over and allow some asshole

Again Bram, your proposed solutions stack the deck in your favor at my inconvenience. Indeed thief,
I do not trust you. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! The only remedies you
propose involve trusting you again. I trusted you in the past and every time

generous offers, but no thanks. I don't want to visit you. I don't want to trust you. Simply
refund my money, and then I'll return the bike. Or, send a non-defective, new frame and bottom
bracket assembly
- I'll have my mechanic rebuild the bike with no charge to you for my mechanic's bill! From past
experience, although you promise to reimburse my expenses, you have yet to reimburse a penny.
Additionally, you can keep the pair of $2 garbage riding shorts for my inconvenience.

first repairing those known defects or informing me of those problems. You were aware of my
dissatisfaction since the bottom bracket fell out of the nose piece during the first 100 miles of
riding. You promised to repair the bike with no costs to me; however you've never repaid me for my
mechanic's costs or FedEx charges. Bram is BIG on promises; thus far from my experience you've not
fully honored any promise.

I've wasted enough time and money on Bram's lies. You were aware of the problems long before you
shipped my bike. Yet you still took my money and shipped the defective M5. Now you want me to bear
the inconvenience associated with repairing a product that you knew was defective before you shipped
the M5. Send me a new frame - don't repair the defective garbage you sold me. By the way, the $500
carbon mono-fork is also defective. However you and I know that you were well aware of this fact
when you shipped the defective fork, also. <Wink Wink>

Baby, you can kiss the US market good bye! The newsgroups love this information regarding your
business practices. Did you know I'm not the only dissatisfied Bram customer in the US? Are you
aware the US bike shops will not sell your products because you historically do not stand behind
your garbage?

You know what you must do to convert me to a satisfied M5 owner. I'm not changing. This is how we
conduct business in the US. However we know how you feel about us Americans don't we? <Smile>

There is a positive side. Convert me to a satisfied M5 owner, and I'll inform the newsgroup readers,
the FTC, the promoters at Interbike, and all other interested parties of your change in business
practices and ethics. Then maybe you can successfully market to the Americans. Until that time,
you're wasting time and money attempting to sell your trash in this market.

When's the bike show? <Hee Hee>

Good luck thief, Eli


> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Eli,

I've read all the posts on this thread and noted Braum willing to refund your money fully with
several options and stipulation of which none were agreed upon.

How about using a buying service like the one Jim Wronski at People Movers Bike shop in Orange
California offers to hold the money till the bike arrives and is inspected to "reasonably" represent
what is specified in the offer to sell. Then the money is released and the bike shipped.

I think he charges a flat fee for the service. Perhaps this may be a remedy for you two to consider?

Ed Gin

bluphoton wrote:

> [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> > > Ed, You are correct. Maybe I'm totally insane and the M5 is a well designed machine. Anyone
> > > can inspect the three bikes or question the three M5 owners in question. We ride atop the
> > > Mississippi River levee between Audubon and Armond Plantation most every morning at sunrise.
> > >

> > >
> > > Eli
> >
> > Hang in there Eli, we are all on your side. One thing is for sure, this Moen character won't be
> > selling any more $7000. M5's to anyone who follows this forum.
> >
>
> Ed, Thanks for the support. In prior emails, did you notice how Bram refers to Americans? Did you
> catch an attitude? Today I received more email from Bram. This newsgroup is having an effect.
> Below is Bram's latest attempt to remedy his situation. Some may say he's not a very humble human.
> Any how, today's edition follows:
>
> Eli,
>
> It is indeed simple.
>
> I do not understand why you spend that much anger and time on this matter.
>
> Offcourse I understand that you want to have a quality product for your money, that is why we
> offered to have the bike to be picked up for free (two ways!!) and have the quality checked and
> where necessary replaced!! All this without any costs What do you mean? NO SERVICE!!!!!???????????
>
> (First offer)
>
> On this offer you didn't want to go on as far as I know (this was during my vacation)
>
> Second offer/attempt: I proposed the money refund which you refused (you did not trust...........)
>
> Third attempt: Money refund from an account of a third impartial party; as soon as the bike has
> been received. This you did not trust either.
>
> By offering this we have given even more guarantees then we are legally obligated to.
>
> There is absolute not one single firm in the whole world (including the USA) which would refund
> until the product has been returned, AND YOU KNOW THAT.
>
> If, unless these proposals to solve this case on a decent way, you go on with refusing, we will
> certainly publish these bare facts and your nice correspondence towards us, on Google and related
> stuff newsgroups and inform the (related) computerbusiness you are working in as well.
>
> Bram
>
> Notice he thretens to attack my computer business. <Hee Hee> I've been involved in several
> business throughout my life, always based in New Orleans. My reputation speaks for itself. My
> successful computer business is now ten years old. I look my clients in the eye almost daily. The
> success of my business, as well as any business, depends on integrity. Period.
>
> I conduct business on a handshake. It is certainly an efficient, win-win situation for both my
> clients, as well as my organization. It's an economic law that the cornerstone of capitalism is
> trust. Without trust captialism fails. However, there are some who do not operate their businesses
> with such wisdom!
>
> Here's my reply to Bram's email:
>
> Dear asshole Bram,
>

> of ~$7000.00 by selling me a defective product that you knew was defective for years before you
> shipped the trash. Now you want to repair the ****? What a generous offer. Am I supposed to be
> happy? So far I think you, your product, and your offers suck. Put yourself in my position. What
> would you do - bend over and allow some asshole

>
> Again Bram, your proposed solutions stack the deck in your favor at my inconvenience. Indeed
> thief, I do not trust you. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! The only
> remedies you propose involve trusting you again. I trusted you in the past and every time

> generous offers, but no thanks. I don't want to visit you. I don't want to trust you. Simply
> refund my money, and then I'll return the bike. Or, send a non-defective, new frame and bottom
> bracket assembly
> - I'll have my mechanic rebuild the bike with no charge to you for my mechanic's bill! From past
> experience, although you promise to reimburse my expenses, you have yet to reimburse a penny.
> Additionally, you can keep the pair of $2 garbage riding shorts for my inconvenience.
>

> first repairing those known defects or informing me of those problems. You were aware of my
> dissatisfaction since the bottom bracket fell out of the nose piece during the first 100 miles of
> riding. You promised to repair the bike with no costs to me; however you've never repaid me for my
> mechanic's costs or FedEx charges. Bram is BIG on promises; thus far from my experience you've not
> fully honored any promise.
>
> I've wasted enough time and money on Bram's lies. You were aware of the problems long before you
> shipped my bike. Yet you still took my money and shipped the defective M5. Now you want me to bear
> the inconvenience associated with repairing a product that you knew was defective before you
> shipped the M5. Send me a new frame - don't repair the defective garbage you sold me. By the way,
> the $500 carbon mono-fork is also defective. However you and I know that you were well aware of
> this fact when you shipped the defective fork, also. <Wink Wink>
>
> Baby, you can kiss the US market good bye! The newsgroups love this information regarding your
> business practices. Did you know I'm not the only dissatisfied Bram customer in the US? Are you
> aware the US bike shops will not sell your products because you historically do not stand behind
> your garbage?
>
> You know what you must do to convert me to a satisfied M5 owner. I'm not changing. This is how we
> conduct business in the US. However we know how you feel about us Americans don't we? <Smile>
>
> There is a positive side. Convert me to a satisfied M5 owner, and I'll inform the newsgroup
> readers, the FTC, the promoters at Interbike, and all other interested parties of your change in
> business practices and ethics. Then maybe you can successfully market to the Americans. Until that
> time, you're wasting time and money attempting to sell your trash in this market.
>
> When's the bike show? <Hee Hee>
>
> Good luck thief, Eli
>
> > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Ed --

Your assessment of offers made and refused appears accurate. Your suggested solution sounds
sensible. So what are those of us watching this cat fight to conclude? Right!

Gator Bob Siegel

"Ed Gin & Shirleen Kajiwara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Eli,
>
> I've read all the posts on this thread and noted Braum willing to refund
your money fully
> with several options and stipulation of which none were agreed upon.
>
> How about using a buying service like the one Jim Wronski at People Movers Bike shop in Orange
> California offers to hold the money till the bike arrives and is inspected to "reasonably"
> represent what is
specified in the
> offer to sell. Then the money is released and the bike shipped.
>
> I think he charges a flat fee for the service. Perhaps this may be a
remedy for
> you two to consider?
>
> Ed Gin
>
> bluphoton wrote:
>
> > [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > > [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > >
> > > > Ed, You are correct. Maybe I'm totally insane and the M5 is a well designed machine. Anyone
> > > > can inspect the three bikes or question
the
> > > > three M5 owners in question. We ride atop the Mississippi River
levee
> > > > between Audubon and Armond Plantation most every morning at sunrise.
> > > >

groups.
> > > >
> > > > Eli
> > >
> > > Hang in there Eli, we are all on your side. One thing is for sure, this Moen character won't
> > > be selling any more $7000. M5's to anyone who follows this forum.
> > >
> >
> > Ed, Thanks for the support. In prior emails, did you notice how Bram refers to Americans? Did
> > you catch an attitude? Today I received more email from Bram. This newsgroup is having an
> > effect. Below is Bram's latest attempt to remedy his situation. Some may say he's not a very
> > humble human. Any how, today's edition follows:
> >
> > Eli,
> >
> > It is indeed simple.
> >
> > I do not understand why you spend that much anger and time on this matter.
> >
> > Offcourse I understand that you want to have a quality product for your money, that is why we
> > offered to have the bike to be picked up for free (two ways!!) and have the quality checked and
> > where necessary replaced!! All this without any costs What do you mean? NO
> > SERVICE!!!!!???????????
> >
> > (First offer)
> >
> > On this offer you didn't want to go on as far as I know (this was during my vacation)
> >
> > Second offer/attempt: I proposed the money refund which you refused (you did not
> > trust...........)
> >
> > Third attempt: Money refund from an account of a third impartial party; as soon as the bike has
> > been received. This you did not trust either.
> >
> > By offering this we have given even more guarantees then we are legally obligated to.
> >
> > There is absolute not one single firm in the whole world (including the USA) which would refund
> > until the product has been returned, AND YOU KNOW THAT.
> >
> > If, unless these proposals to solve this case on a decent way, you go on with refusing, we will
> > certainly publish these bare facts and your nice correspondence towards us, on Google and
> > related stuff newsgroups and inform the (related) computerbusiness you are working in as well.
> >
> > Bram
> >
> > Notice he thretens to attack my computer business. <Hee Hee> I've been involved in several
> > business throughout my life, always based in New Orleans. My reputation speaks for itself. My
> > successful computer business is now ten years old. I look my clients in the eye almost daily.
> > The success of my business, as well as any business, depends on integrity. Period.
> >
> > I conduct business on a handshake. It is certainly an efficient, win-win situation for both my
> > clients, as well as my organization. It's an economic law that the cornerstone of capitalism is
> > trust. Without trust captialism fails. However, there are some who do not operate their
> > businesses with such wisdom!
> >
> > Here's my reply to Bram's email:
> >
> > Dear asshole Bram,
> >

> > of ~$7000.00 by selling me a defective product that you knew was defective for years before you
> > shipped the trash. Now you want to repair the ****? What a generous offer. Am I supposed to be
> > happy? So far I think you, your product, and your offers suck. Put yourself in my position. What
> > would you do - bend over and allow some asshole

> >
> > Again Bram, your proposed solutions stack the deck in your favor at my inconvenience. Indeed
> > thief, I do not trust you. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! The only
> > remedies you propose involve trusting you again. I trusted you in the past and every time

> > generous offers, but no thanks. I don't want to visit you. I don't want to trust you. Simply
> > refund my money, and then I'll return the bike. Or, send a non-defective, new frame and bottom
> > bracket assembly
> > - I'll have my mechanic rebuild the bike with no charge to you for my mechanic's bill! From past
> > experience, although you promise to reimburse my expenses, you have yet to reimburse a penny.
> > Additionally, you can keep the pair of $2 garbage riding shorts for my inconvenience.
> >

> > first repairing those known defects or informing me of those problems. You were aware of my
> > dissatisfaction since the bottom bracket fell out of the nose piece during the first 100 miles
> > of riding. You promised to repair the bike with no costs to me; however you've never repaid me
> > for my mechanic's costs or FedEx charges. Bram is BIG on promises; thus far from my experience
> > you've not fully honored any promise.
> >
> > I've wasted enough time and money on Bram's lies. You were aware of the problems long before you
> > shipped my bike. Yet you still took my money and shipped the defective M5. Now you want me to
> > bear the inconvenience associated with repairing a product that you knew was defective before
> > you shipped the M5. Send me a new frame - don't repair the defective garbage you sold me. By the
> > way, the $500 carbon mono-fork is also defective. However you and I know that you were well
> > aware of this fact when you shipped the defective fork, also. <Wink Wink>
> >
> > Baby, you can kiss the US market good bye! The newsgroups love this information regarding your
> > business practices. Did you know I'm not the only dissatisfied Bram customer in the US? Are you
> > aware the US bike shops will not sell your products because you historically do not stand behind
> > your garbage?
> >
> > You know what you must do to convert me to a satisfied M5 owner. I'm not changing. This is how
> > we conduct business in the US. However we know how you feel about us Americans don't we? <Smile>
> >
> > There is a positive side. Convert me to a satisfied M5 owner, and I'll inform the newsgroup
> > readers, the FTC, the promoters at Interbike, and all other interested parties of your change in
> > business practices and ethics. Then maybe you can successfully market to the Americans. Until
> > that time, you're wasting time and money attempting to sell your trash in this market.
> >
> > When's the bike show? <Hee Hee>
> >
> > Good luck thief, Eli
> >
> > > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
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