MA3 rim durability

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Kwalters, Feb 20, 2003.

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  1. Kwalters

    Kwalters Guest

    Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so than the
    MA2 & MA40. In 9/01 I replaced a shot MA40 with a MA3, 32h, rear. It currently has ~7000 miles on
    it. It also has 4 cracks radiating out from 4 eyelets. Each crack is 3-5 mm long, all are on the
    drive side in a 17-spoke semi-circle, and all radiate out in the same direction.

    I used to get 12K-14K on my rear MA2s & MA40s at a time when I was weighing in at 205-210 lbs. I
    currently weigh 185ish, and have always been a conservative rider: slow down for RR tracks, dodge
    potholes, no curb jumping.

    Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?

    Thanks for your thoughts. Ken
     
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  2. kwalters wrote:
    > Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so than the
    > MA2 & MA40. In 9/01 I replaced a shot MA40 with a MA3, 32h, rear. It currently has ~7000 miles on
    > it. It also has 4 cracks radiating out from 4 eyelets. Each crack is 3-5 mm long, all are on the
    > drive side in a 17-spoke semi-circle, and all radiate out in the same direction.
    >
    > I used to get 12K-14K on my rear MA2s & MA40s at a time when I was weighing in at 205-210 lbs. I
    > currently weigh 185ish, and have always been a conservative rider: slow down for RR tracks, dodge
    > potholes, no curb jumping.
    >
    > Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?

    You don't say what kind of spokes were used. This sort of failure is much more common with
    straight-gauge spokes, less common with butted spokes.

    Can also be related to a wheelbuilder getting overenthusiastic about high tension.

    Sheldon "Not Too Tight, Not Too Loose" Brown +---------------------------------------------------+
    | Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. | --Salvor Hardin (Isaac Asimov) |
    +---------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  3. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, kwalters <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so than the
    > MA2 & MA40.

    Whoever said that was wrong. And there are always multiple posts explaining why it is wrong to
    equate the MA3 with the MA2. The MA2 was one of the best bike rims of all time, being good for
    20,000 miles (unless you wore through the sidewalls braking in wet conditions). The MA40, which was
    the same rim as the MA2 but anodized, was prone to cracking just like your rim.

    Despite the similarity in names, the rims are designed very differently from each other. First off,
    the MA3 is a single ferrule design whereas the MA2 is a socketed design. The socketed design is
    better because spoke loads are distributed to the rim bed and the rim top; with the single ferrule
    design the spoke loads are all loaded on the rim top. Second, the MA3 is anodized whereas the MA2
    was polished aluminum. Anodizing- even so-called "soft" anodizing- increases the likelihood of
    failure by cracking. Third, the MA3 has the sidewalls preworn out by the manufacturer machining of
    the sidewalls, whereas the MA2 still had the full thickness of the extrusion.

    IMHO it's no contest- the MA2 was a great rim and the MA3 is a dog just like all the rest of the
    rims currently on the market (that I know about anyway; I'd love to hear otherwise).

    > Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?

    If the rim is cracked, it's shot. I wish I had a good recommendation to make as a replacement. IMHO
    the last good rim on the market was the MA2. As far as I know there are no 700C socketed, polished,
    non-machined rims on the market currently.

    Until the marketplace wises up and stops buying products with an unconsionably short lifespan, we'll
    keep getting ripped off with products that are crap. It's as much our own fault- for believing the
    hype and buying accordingly- as it is theirs.
     
  4. Robin Hubert

    Robin Hubert Guest

    "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > kwalters wrote:
    > > Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so than
    > > the MA2 & MA40. In 9/01 I replaced a shot MA40 with a MA3, 32h, rear. It currently has ~7000
    > > miles on
    > > it. It also has 4 cracks radiating out from 4 eyelets. Each crack is 3-5 mm long, all are on the
    > > drive side in a 17-spoke semi-circle, and all radiate out in the same direction.
    > >
    > > I used to get 12K-14K on my rear MA2s & MA40s at a time when I was weighing in at 205-210 lbs. I
    > > currently weigh 185ish, and have always been a conservative rider: slow down for RR tracks,
    > > dodge potholes, no curb jumping.
    > >
    > > Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?
    >
    > You don't say what kind of spokes were used. This sort of failure is much more common with
    > straight-gauge spokes, less common with butted
    spokes.

    Also, is that an MA-3CD?

    >
    > Can also be related to a wheelbuilder getting overenthusiastic about high tension.
    >
    > Sheldon "Not Too Tight, Not Too Loose" Brown

    Robin Hubert
     
  5. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Tim McNamara wrote:
    > The MA40, which was the same rim as the MA2 but anodized, was prone to cracking just like
    > your rim.

    The MA40 was hard anodised. The MA3 is not, so is not so prone to cracking.

    > Second, the MA3 is anodized whereas the MA2 was polished aluminum. Anodizing- even so-called
    > "soft" anodizing- increases the likelihood of failure by cracking.

    By how much? Do MA3s and Open Pros fail through cracking as often as MA40s?

    > Third, the MA3 has the sidewalls preworn out by the manufacturer machining of the sidewalls,
    > whereas the MA2 still had the full thickness of the extrusion.

    Are the sidewalls not made thicker in the first place to allow for the machining? In any case, is
    sidewall wear a serious issue for the average MA3 owner?

    ~PB
     
  6. What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?

    --
    ==================
    Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
    ==================
    "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, kwalters <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so than
    > > the MA2 & MA40.
    >
    > Whoever said that was wrong. And there are always multiple posts explaining why it is wrong to
    > equate the MA3 with the MA2. The MA2 was one of the best bike rims of all time, being good for
    > 20,000 miles (unless you wore through the sidewalls braking in wet conditions). The MA40, which
    > was the same rim as the MA2 but anodized, was prone to cracking just like your rim.
    >
    > Despite the similarity in names, the rims are designed very differently from each other. First
    > off, the MA3 is a single ferrule design whereas the MA2 is a socketed design. The socketed design
    > is better because spoke loads are distributed to the rim bed and the rim top; with the single
    > ferrule design the spoke loads are all loaded on the rim top. Second, the MA3 is anodized whereas
    > the MA2 was polished aluminum. Anodizing- even so-called "soft" anodizing- increases the
    > likelihood of failure by cracking. Third, the MA3 has the sidewalls preworn out by the
    > manufacturer machining of the sidewalls, whereas the MA2 still had the full thickness of the
    > extrusion.
    >
    > IMHO it's no contest- the MA2 was a great rim and the MA3 is a dog just like all the rest of the
    > rims currently on the market (that I know about anyway; I'd love to hear otherwise).
    >
    > > Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?
    >
    > If the rim is cracked, it's shot. I wish I had a good recommendation to make as a replacement.
    > IMHO the last good rim on the market was the MA2. As far as I know there are no 700C socketed,
    > polished, non-machined rims on the market currently.
    >
    > Until the marketplace wises up and stops buying products with an unconsionably short lifespan,
    > we'll keep getting ripped off with products that are crap. It's as much our own fault- for
    > believing the hype and buying accordingly- as it is theirs.
     
  7. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 03:34:12 GMT, "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?

    A trick question!!! As I recall, the MA 2 has *always* had a satin silver anodized finish. The "2"
    in the model name distinguished it from the MA model which was a plain, (polished, not anodized) but
    now highly prized trophy.

    Sorry, I don't recall the years in which the various models (MA, MA 2, MA 40) first appeared.

    -------------------------------
    http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twentieth year.
    Our catalog of track equipment: seventh year online
    -------------------------------
     
  8. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Kraig Willett writes:

    > What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?

    Not at all as far as I can tell because I bought all the last ones I could find around here and they
    all have only a shiny polished finish.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  9. Kwalters

    Kwalters Guest

    Sheldon Brown wrote:

    > kwalters wrote:
    > > Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so than
    > > the MA2 & MA40. In 9/01 I replaced a shot MA40 with a MA3, 32h, rear. It currently has ~7000
    > > miles on
    > > it. It also has 4 cracks radiating out from 4 eyelets. Each crack is 3-5 mm long, all are on the
    > > drive side in a 17-spoke semi-circle, and all radiate out in the same direction.
    > >
    > > I used to get 12K-14K on my rear MA2s & MA40s at a time when I was weighing in at 205-210 lbs. I
    > > currently weigh 185ish, and have always been a conservative rider: slow down for RR tracks,
    > > dodge potholes, no curb jumping.
    > >
    > > Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?
    >
    > You don't say what kind of spokes were used. This sort of failure is much more common with
    > straight-gauge spokes, less common with butted spokes.
    >

    Didn't think spoke type would make a difference, but they are 14g DT.

    Ken
     
  10. <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Kraig Willett writes:
    >
    > > What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?
    >
    > Not at all as far as I can tell because I bought all the last ones I could find around here and
    > they all have only a shiny polished finish.

    The only reason I ask is because I have this old Mavic catalog without a year on it that says the
    MA2 has an anodized finish.

    I have scanned the page section and posted it here:

    http://makeashorterlink.com/?N41123C83

    from what I remember, I got this catalog in the mid 90's, and judging from the many Indurain pics in
    it, that timeframe makes sense.

    --
    ==================
    Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
    ==================
     
  11. Kwalters

    Kwalters Guest

    Robin Hubert wrote:

    > "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > kwalters wrote:
    > > > Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so than
    > > > the MA2 & MA40. In 9/01 I replaced a shot MA40 with a MA3, 32h, rear. It currently has ~7000
    > > > miles on
    > > > it. It also has 4 cracks radiating out from 4 eyelets. Each crack is 3-5 mm long, all are on
    > > > the drive side in a 17-spoke semi-circle, and all radiate out in the same direction.
    > > >
    > > > I used to get 12K-14K on my rear MA2s & MA40s at a time when I was weighing in at 205-210 lbs.
    > > > I currently weigh 185ish, and have always been a conservative rider: slow down for RR tracks,
    > > > dodge potholes, no curb jumping.
    > > >
    > > > Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?
    > >
    > > You don't say what kind of spokes were used. This sort of failure is much more common with
    > > straight-gauge spokes, less common with butted
    > spokes.
    >
    > Also, is that an MA-3CD?
    >

    No, just plain, brushed(?) aluminum ($30).

    Ken
     
  12. walters-<< Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so
    than the MA2 & MA40

    I agree that the MA-3 is a good rim but i wouldn't agree that is is 'better' than the MA-2.

    << it. It also has 4 cracks radiating out from 4 eyelets. Each crack is 3-5 mm

    We have built loads of these w/o this issue..

    << Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?

    Adequate/proper tension and proper number of spokes(36 at least in the rear is what i would
    rec. for you)-

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  13. Tim-<< IMHO it's no contest- the MA2 was a great rim and the MA3 is a dog just like all the rest of
    the rims currently on the market.

    Altho I agree that the MA-3 is not the rim of the MA-2-I have built many and if done properly, make
    for a long lasting wheelset(proper tension, spoke count, etc).

    The CXP-33, new CXP-22, Torelli master, Velocity Deep V and Aerohead, and Ambrosio Excellence can
    all make for a good wheelset. are also all good rims.

    << we'll keep getting ripped off with products that are crap

    The cuurent crop of rims are not what they used to be but can still be made into a long lasting
    wheelset...all is not that bad.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  14. David Ornee

    David Ornee Guest

    "kwalters" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Some months ago, it was mentioned here that the MA3 was a good, durable rim, much more so than the
    > MA2 & MA40. In 9/01 I replaced a shot MA40 with a MA3, 32h, rear. It currently has ~7000 miles on
    > it. It also has 4 cracks radiating out from 4 eyelets. Each crack is 3-5 mm long, all are on the
    > drive side in a 17-spoke semi-circle, and all radiate out in the same direction.
    >
    > I used to get 12K-14K on my rear MA2s & MA40s at a time when I was weighing in at 205-210 lbs. I
    > currently weigh 185ish, and have always been a conservative rider: slow down for RR tracks, dodge
    > potholes, no curb jumping.
    >
    > Do I need a new wheel builder? Can anything be done to prevent more cracks from developing?
    >
    > Thanks for your thoughts. Ken

    Ken,

    Tension balancing and proper spoke tension are the keys. Double butted spokes also help by spreading
    the dynamic loads. We are talking about over 100 kgf in spoke tension on the drive side of a
    properly built wheel. Each of those spokes must have the same tension. The author of the book "The
    Art of Wheel Building", Gerd Schraner, is quoted at the DT Swiss websit at URL:
    http://www.dtswiss.com/en/laufradbau-faq.html "Why are some spokes, especially those on expensive
    bikes, thinner in the middle section?

    The use of these "reduced" spokes allow longer-life wheels to be built. Spokes with a thinner
    mid-section aren't just lighter and more aerodynamic but, more importantly, are much more elastic
    than normal straight-edged spokes. When placed under extreme overloads, they react in a similar way
    to resiliant bolts used in the machine industry. If a wheel undergoes rapid radial forces, for
    example a bump, the spokes spring as they take up the overload, thus protecting the hub."

    Gerd talks about protecting the hub, but I know that at the otner end of the more elastic spoke is
    the rim. The elasticity of th spoke helps protect the rim as well.

    I still think that the statement at the Wheelsmith website at URL
    http://www.wheelsmith.com/page4.html bears repeating: "Wheelsmith's wheelbuilding philosophy
    emphasizes strength and durability, and the key is high, uniform spoke tension. Spoke tension is the
    most difficult and elusive aspect of wheelbuilding. It is the characteristic of the wheel most
    difficult to evaluate, yet the most critical to its performance. This approach to wheelbuilding,
    based on combining both art and science, and focusing on tension rather than cosmetic trueness, was
    pioneered by Wheelsmith and remains at the foundation of our process. Cosmetic trueness can actually
    come at the expense of a wheel's strength because it can result in unbalanced tension. So do not be
    misled by some builders' claims about trueness, because what really matters is not how true a wheel
    is now, but how true it is 1,000 miles from now."

    If you wheelbuilder understands these things and applies them properly, stick with him. If you need
    another wheelbuilder make sure your budget allows for double butted spokes and the time it takes to
    have them properly tensioned and tension balanced. Jobst Brandt's book, Sheldon Brown's website, and
    Barnett's Chapter 17 cover these items in detail.

    David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

    David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
     
  15. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    >On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 03:34:12 GMT, "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?

    So on Thu, 20 Feb 2003 23:51:29 -0500, I blurted out:
    >
    >A trick question!!! As I recall, the MA 2 has *always* had a satin silver anodized finish. The "2"
    >in the model name distinguished it from the MA model which was a plain, (polished, not anodized)
    >but now highly prized trophy.

    Oops.

    On checking further, the info above is incorrect (and they said that *short term* memory would be
    the first to go...).

    The MA model was a single eyelet design. The eyelets in the MA 2 were socket types and had a simple
    polished finish. There was also a MA 2 Argent which added satin silver anodizing to the MA 2. The MA
    2 Argent model existed as a discrete model at least through Mavic's '90/'91 catalogue.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://www.businesscycles.com John Dacey Business Cycles
    Miami, Florida
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now in our twentieth year. Our catalogue of track equipment: seventh
    year online
     
  16. John Everett

    John Everett Guest

    On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:35:21 GMT, "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote:

    ><[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> Kraig Willett writes:
    >>
    >> > What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?
    >>
    >> Not at all as far as I can tell because I bought all the last ones I could find around here and
    >> they all have only a shiny polished finish.
    >
    >The only reason I ask is because I have this old Mavic catalog without a year on it that says the
    >MA2 has an anodized finish.
    >
    >I have scanned the page section and posted it here:
    >
    >http://makeashorterlink.com/?N41123C83

    Funny thing, I read John Dacey's first post, asserting that MA2s were anodized, and went downstairs
    to look at mine. They "looked" anodized to me, but then I read Jobst's post and thought "Jobst is
    never wrong about these things." Then I followed the above url, and I guess at least some MA2s were
    anodized, and I think my pair are among them.

    jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3
     
  17. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote:

    > Tim McNamara wrote:
    > > The MA40, which was the same rim as the MA2 but anodized, was prone to cracking just like
    > > your rim.
    >
    > The MA40 was hard anodised. The MA3 is not, so is not so prone to cracking.

    As has been explained previously by the engineering types, in this effect anodizing is anodizing.

    > > Second, the MA3 is anodized whereas the MA2 was polished aluminum. Anodizing- even so-called
    > > "soft" anodizing- increases the likelihood of failure by cracking.
    >
    > By how much? Do MA3s and Open Pros fail through cracking as often as MA40s?

    IME yes. Obviously I can't quantify it and the industry doesn't collect data on this- only on sales.
    Well, they don't collect failure rate data and share it, anyway.

    > > Third, the MA3 has the sidewalls preworn out by the manufacturer machining of the sidewalls,
    > > whereas the MA2 still had the full thickness of the extrusion.
    >
    > Are the sidewalls not made thicker in the first place to allow for the machining?

    As has been previously explained in one of the many threads on the topic, extrusions are not
    perfectly straight. Even if the sidewalls are made thicker in the die for the extrusion, when you
    machine them some places will be thinner than others.

    > In any case, is sidewall wear a serious issue for the average MA3 owner?

    How the hell would I know? :) What's an "average" MA3 owner vs. any other rim?
     
  18. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?

    My final year MA2s have no anodizing on them.
     
  19. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, John Dacey
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 03:34:12 GMT, "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?
    >
    > A trick question!!! As I recall, the MA 2 has *always* had a satin silver anodized finish.

    No MA2 I have ever seen has had any type of anodizing whatsoever. They are polished aluminum.
     
  20. Harris

    Harris Guest

    Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Kraig Willett" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > What year did Mavic start clear cosmetic anodizing the MA2?

    > My final year MA2s have no anodizing on them.

    This may be a stupid question, but how can you tell if a rim has "clear" anodizing?

    Art Harris
     
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