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MA3 rim failure

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Cycling Equipment
Published
13 November 2005
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19 November 2005
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maxo
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  1. Qui si parla Campagnolo said:


    Warren Block said:
    Michael Press said:


    You still have the hubs? Get Sun CR-18 rims and build them up.

    For those of us with otherwise-good wheels with MA3 rims:

    Is there a decent, easy-to-get rim with the same ERD (607.5mm) as the
    MA3?

    I believe that the new for 2006 mavic Open Sport is...I'll check today.
    It is the replacement for the MA-3..made better according to the rep
    and Mavic....we'll see,,,

    Interesting, but the probably the only way I'd be tempted to get new
    rims from Mavic would be if Mavic offered a credit for the MA3s.

    --
    Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA

  2. quote='Qui si parla Campagnolo'Warren Block said:
    Michael Press said:


    You still have the hubs? Get Sun CR-18 rims and build them up.

    For those of us with otherwise-good wheels with MA3 rims:

    Is there a decent, easy-to-get rim with the same ERD (607.5mm) as the
    MA3?

    --
    Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA

    I believe that the new for 2006 mavic Open Sport is...I'll check today.
    It is the replacement for the MA-3..made better according to the rep
    and Mavic....we'll see,,,[/QUOTE]
    Yes, take a close look at the Open Sport extrusion and compare it to the MA3. Same dimensions, but the Open Sport has an External Wear Indicator (small groove in braking surface). My eyes may be tricking me, but it appears that the material thickness of the top wall, where the eyelets, are is thicker on the Open Sport than the MA3. This would be a good idea.
    Internally, the extrusion has a couple of other details that are different in the "hidden" round sections of the MA3 now irregular ovals in the Open Sport, and the bottom wall where the inner tube rests is now flat instead of rounded.

  3. Chalo said:

    But don't you think that folks used to run before the advent of molded
    plastic shoes? Did Roger Bannister have EVA insoles and patented
    pneumatic bladders in his shoes when he ran the four minute mile in
    1954?

    Well, I'll admit I don't know anything about the modern weird shoes
    with sproings and so on. The ones I get are very straightforward.

    I don't know what Paavo Nurmi's reindeer-skin shoes were like, but
    Jesse Owen's 1936 shoes, made in the factory of a certain Herr Dassler
    which you seem to dislike particularly, are said to have weighed about
    a pound, presumably for the pair. If true that would put them in the
    same league as a very lightweight trainer or sturdy racing flat today.
    Sprint spikes had gotten down to 4.5 oz in size 9 by the late 1970s
    (there's been no improvement since then). For running, that's a major
    difference.

    Roger Bannister's are in a museum in England, I haven't seen them, and
    Kolehmainen's (1912) are in the Sports Museum of Finland. I hope to one
    day pass by. Very lightweight shoes can be made of thin suede leather
    with a stitched sole, but the first problem is that without spikes,
    leather soles are way too slippery, and if tough enough to provide
    protection, they are heavy and stiff. So, rubber has been bonded to the
    bottom for probably as long as rubber has been around, certainly more
    than a century, and the problem then is how to make that bond stick and
    how to make that rubber last. I believe the weight reduction that first
    got sprint spikes down to 4.5oz (Adistar) from what must have been
    about an ounce or two more in the 1960s was replacement of the rubber
    outsole with some synthetic, not change of the upper from suede to
    nylon.

    Quoted message said:

    Adidas pu t a flimsy upper on their shoe because the sole will
    quickly wear out anyway.

    In my experience, the running shoes of today are vastly more durable
    than those of say, 15-35 years ago and more. Suede uppers cracked and
    split with foul weather abuse, smooth leather would too if not greased
    or waxed, which no one did, and gum rubber soles required constant
    applications of hot glue or shoe goo to last. Thin carbon rubber
    outsoles have made a huge difference (although once in a while they
    unglue), as have plastic heel counters (instead of cardboard? leather?)
    and polyester mesh uppers, and the glues are stronger. The only weak
    spot is the lining at the heel, since nowadays it is stuffed fabric
    instead of smooth vinyl or leather. Even 50 years ago and more,
    training shoes had bonded rubber outsoles, not leather.

    I have medium-thick leather upper running shoes (Adidas Country) and
    they are great, I doubt I will every wear through the upper, but they
    would be hot for the summer, and they're not as easy-care as polyester
    mesh. Running shoes have to be used in ALL conditions, including salty
    slush. Since they have fast-wearing gum rubber outsoles, I use them for
    bicycling instead.

  4. 41 said:

    Well, I'll admit I don't know anything about

    So you just KNOW something long-winded will follow!

    Quoted message said:

    the modern weird shoes
    with sproings and so on. The ones I get are very straightforward.

    I don't know what Paavo Nurmi's reindeer-skin shoes were like, but
    Jesse Owen's 1936 shoes, made in the factory of a certain Herr Dassler
    which you seem to dislike particularly, are said to have weighed about
    a pound, presumably for the pair. If true that would put them in the
    same league as a very lightweight trainer or sturdy racing flat today.
    Sprint spikes had gotten down to 4.5 oz in size 9 by the late 1970s
    (there's been no improvement since then). For running, that's a major
    difference.

    Roger Bannister's are in a museum in England, I haven't seen them, and
    Kolehmainen's (1912) are in the Sports Museum of Finland. I hope to
    one day pass by. Very lightweight shoes can be made of thin suede
    leather with a stitched sole, but the first problem is that without
    spikes, leather soles are way too slippery, and if tough enough to
    provide protection, they are heavy and stiff. So, rubber has been
    bonded to the bottom for probably as long as rubber has been around,
    certainly more than a century, and the problem then is how to make
    that bond stick and how to make that rubber last. I believe the
    weight reduction that first got sprint spikes down to 4.5oz (Adistar)
    from what must have been about an ounce or two more in the 1960s was
    replacement of the rubber outsole with some synthetic, not change of
    the upper from suede to nylon.

    Quoted message said:

    Adidas pu t a flimsy upper on their shoe because the sole will
    quickly wear out anyway.

    In my experience, the running shoes of today are vastly more durable
    than those of say, 15-35 years ago and more. Suede uppers cracked and
    split with foul weather abuse, smooth leather would too if not greased
    or waxed, which no one did, and gum rubber soles required constant
    applications of hot glue or shoe goo to last. Thin carbon rubber
    outsoles have made a huge difference (although once in a while they
    unglue), as have plastic heel counters (instead of cardboard?
    leather?) and polyester mesh uppers, and the glues are stronger. The
    only weak spot is the lining at the heel, since nowadays it is
    stuffed fabric instead of smooth vinyl or leather. Even 50 years ago
    and more, training shoes had bonded rubber outsoles, not leather.

    I have medium-thick leather upper running shoes (Adidas Country) and
    they are great, I doubt I will every wear through the upper, but they
    would be hot for the summer, and they're not as easy-care as polyester
    mesh. Running shoes have to be used in ALL conditions, including salty
    slush. Since they have fast-wearing gum rubber outsoles, I use them
    for bicycling instead.

    Told ya so.

    N&F :-P

  5. Dave Ornee said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > You still have the hubs? Get Sun CR-18 rims and build them up.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    For those of us with otherwise-good wheels with MA3 rims:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Is there a decent, easy-to-get rim with the same ERD (607.5mm) as
    the MA3?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I believe that the new for 2006 Mavic Open Sport is...I'll check
    today. It is the replacement for the MA-3..made better according
    to the rep and Mavic... we'll see,

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, take a close look at the Open Sport extrusion and compare it to
    the MA3. Same dimensions, but the Open Sport has an External Wear
    Indicator (small groove in braking surface). My eyes may be
    tricking me, but it appears that the material thickness of the top
    wall, where the eyelets, are is thicker on the Open Sport than the
    MA3. This would be a good idea.

    The inner wall of the rim has been made heavier to avoid having to use
    sockets for spoke support as the MA-2 did. The MA-3 just ignored that
    and relied on the infinite goodness of users to not put any load on
    these "beginner (aka entry level) rims". To make up for that, the rim
    is anodized, welded and machined and weighs an advertised 490g.
    That's what you get for only eyelets without spoke sockets.

    Quoted message said:

    Internally, the extrusion has a couple of other details that are
    different in the "hidden" round sections of the MA3 now irregular
    ovals in the Open Sport, and the bottom wall where the inner tube
    rests is now flat instead of rounded.

    I see no functional effect of that shape other than that a central
    trench is provided for easier tire mounting. What the inner tube does
    is immaterial, it being a highly flexible and adaptive bladder that
    conforms to almost any shape at inflation pressures.

    So how much are they asking for this jewel?

    Jobst Brandt

  6. Jay Beattie wrote:
    <snip to good bit>

    Quoted message said:


    Go to http://www.bikeville.com/tires.html and check the clincher
    rims. They have the E2s and MA2 (and Gentlemen) which all look
    polished to me. -- Jay Beattie.

    that's a good blast from the past.

    fwics;

    ma2 looks anodized
    mod-e looks polished
    super champ looks polished but dusty
    gentleman looks polished

    and don't forget, rim alloys have changed over time. some are more
    susceptible to corrosion than others, hence the need to anodize.

  7. jim beam said:

    and don't forget, rim alloys have changed over time. some are more
    susceptible to corrosion than others, hence the need to anodize.

    What do they use now? I thought 6061 was the standard choice for rims.

    --
    Dave
    dvt at psu dot edu

  8. I found this amusing, though the funny part is really about the MA40.
    Here's what Nashbar says about these two rims:

    Mavic MA3 Road Rim
    A great high quality rim for all types of road riding.

    Mavic MA40 CD Road Rim
    These won’t last long!

  9. On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:55:13 -0800, "Jay Beattie"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [cut out 270+lines of quoted material]

    Quoted message said:

    Go to http://www.bikeville.com/tires.html and check the clincher
    rims. They have the E2s and MA2 (and Gentlemen) which all look
    polished to me. -- Jay Beattie.

    Jesus man, learn to snip.

    Jasper

  10. Chalo said:


    I had a problem with a T519 rim recently where the rims started to fail
    in compression from the tension of 48 spokes. This wouldn't be all
    that unusual, except for where the failure occurred: Not at the valve
    hole, but at the weld. The weld began to bulge and ripple, which was
    quite visible due to the machined finish traversing that area.

    Quoted message said:


    Chalo Colina

    What was the tension of the right side spokes? I have built more than a
    few tandem wheels with 48/40 and have not seen this problem.

  11. quote='dvt'jim beam said:

    and don't forget, rim alloys have changed over time. some are more
    susceptible to corrosion than others, hence the need to anodize.

    What do they use now? I thought 6061 was the standard choice for rims.

    --
    Dave
    dvt at psu dot edu[/QUOTE]

    6106
    David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

  12. dvt said:
    jim beam said:

    and don't forget, rim alloys have changed over time. some are more
    susceptible to corrosion than others, hence the need to anodize.

    What do they use now? I thought 6061 was the standard choice for rims.


    don't know what everyone uses. mavic use 6106 on lower end stuff and
    something they call "maxtal" on the higher end. not sure what that's
    equivalent to. these are generally Al/Mg/Zn/Si alloys. fwiu, old style
    rims are predominantly 2000 series alloys which are basically Al/Cu.

  13. jim beam said:
    dvt said:

    jim beam wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and don't forget, rim alloys have changed over time. some are more
    susceptible to corrosion than others, hence the need to anodize.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What do they use now? I thought 6061 was the standard choice for rims.

    Quoted message said:

    don't know what everyone uses. mavic use 6106 on lower end stuff and
    something they call "maxtal" on the higher end. not sure what that's
    equivalent to. these are generally Al/Mg/Zn/Si alloys. fwiu, old style
    rims are predominantly 2000 series alloys which are basically Al/Cu.

    From MIL-HDBK-5H, 1 December 1998, MILITARY HANDBOOK, METALLIC
    MATERIALS AND ELEMENTS FOR AEROSPACE VEHICLE STRUCTURES:

    "The high-strength heat treatable wrought aluminum alloys in certain
    tempers are susceptible to stress-corrosion cracking, depending upon
    product, section size, direction and magnitude of stress. These
    alloys include 2014, 2025, 2618, 7075, 7150, 7175, and 7475 in the
    T6-type tempers and 2014, 2024, 2124, and 2219 in the T3 and T4-type
    tempers."

    It doesn't mention 6000 series aluminum as having a problem with SCC.
    All of the 6000 series alloys mentioned in the book (6013, 6061, and
    6151) get high scores for SCC and corrosion resistance.

    Although it isn't explicitly stated, I think the implication is that
    6000 series aluminum is quite resistant to SCC. So if the MA-3 is made
    with 6106 alloy, SCC is probably not the reason for the cracking. And if
    older rims used 2000 series alloy, which are more prone to SCC than the
    6000 series alloys, then it seems like the old timers would have had
    more trouble with cracking.

    --
    Dave
    dvt at psu dot edu

  14. Jasper Janssen said:

    On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:55:13 -0800, "Jay Beattie"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    [cut out 270+lines of quoted material]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Go to http://www.bikeville.com/tires.html and check the clincher
    rims. They have the E2s and MA2 (and Gentlemen) which all look
    polished to me. -- Jay Beattie.

    Quoted message said:

    Jesus man, learn to snip.

    10 months from now, Chalo and/or the D'oh Boy will snipe that you're a 'net
    Nazi for that. (Never mind that you're right, of course.)

    Bill "oops I forgot -- you're not conservative so you'll get a pass" S.

    PS: "JESUS"?!? Are you allowed to say that?!?

  15. SriBikeJi said:

    Mavic MA40 CD Road Rim
    These won't last long!

    I had the same reaction when I read that in Nashbar: Truth in
    advertising!

    Art Harris

  16. dvt said:
    jim beam said:
    dvt said:

    jim beam wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > and don't forget, rim alloys have changed over time. some are more
    > susceptible to corrosion than others, hence the need to anodize.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What do they use now? I thought 6061 was the standard choice for rims.

    Quoted message said:

    don't know what everyone uses. mavic use 6106 on lower end stuff and
    something they call "maxtal" on the higher end. not sure what that's
    equivalent to. these are generally Al/Mg/Zn/Si alloys. fw iu, old style
    rims are predominantly 2000 series alloys which are basically Al/Cu.

    From MIL-HDBK-5H, 1 December 1998, MILITARY HANDBOOK, METALLIC
    MATERIALS AND ELEMENTS FOR AEROSPACE VEHICLE STRUCTURES:

    "The high-strength heat treatable wrought aluminum alloys in certain
    tempers are susceptible to stress-corrosion cracking, depending upon
    product, section size, direction and magnitude of stress. These
    alloys include 2014, 2025, 2618, 7075, 7150, 7175, and 7475 in the
    T6-type tempers and 2014, 2024, 2124, and 2219 in the T3 and T4-type
    tempers."

    It doesn't mention 6000 series aluminum as having a problem with SCC.
    All of the 6000 series alloys mentioned in the book (6013, 6061, and
    6151) get high scores for SCC a nd corrosion resistance.

    Although it isn't explicitly stated, I think the implication is that
    6000 series aluminum is quite resistant to SCC. So if the MA-3 is made
    with 6106 alloy, SCC is probably not the reason for the cracking. And if
    old er rims used 2000 series alloy, which are more prone to SCC than the
    6000 series alloys, then it seems like the old timers would have had
    more trouble with cracking.

    What's this, you're providing proof that Mr. "jim beam" doesn't know
    what he's talking about and is spreading incorrect information? How
    completely shocking & unprecedented!!!!!!!!!!

  17. 41 wrote:
    [snip]

    Please stop your trolling.

    --
    Dave
    dvt at psu dot edu

  18. dvt said:

    41 wrote:
    [snip]

    Please stop your trolling.

    How could I be trolling? He (pretended to have) killfiled me long ago,
    and now that Carl is gone there is no one to support his opinions. What
    I do is provide an informative service to anyone who might be reading
    him for the first time.P

  19. 41 said:
    dvt said:

    Please stop your trolling.

    Quoted message said:

    How could I be trolling?

    I don't believe your post added anything to the discussion at hand. It
    was insulting or deragotory. In my book, that qualifies as a troll.

    --
    Dave
    dvt at psu dot edu

  20. Qui si parla Campagnolo said:


    Chalo said:


    I had a problem with a T519 rim recently where the rims started to fail
    in compression from the tension of 48 spokes. This wouldn't be all
    that unusual, except for where the failure occurred: Not at the valve
    hole, but at the weld. The weld began to bulge and ripple, which was
    quite visible due to the machined finish traversing that area.

    What was the tension of the right side spokes? I have built more than a
    few tandem wheels with 48/40 and have not seen this problem.

    I didn't measure it, but it was low enough that the left side spokes
    wouldn't stay tight. And since it was a disc rear hub, the dish wasn't
    even as extreme as most cassette hubs.

    Chalo

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