MA3 rim failure

[maxo]

Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
with my anecdotal experience.

So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.

FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar. I
got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
nowhere near overtight.

I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.

Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...

 

[Andy Morris]

maxo wrote:
> Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet
> that got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> with my anecdotal experience.
>
> So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
> recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
>
> FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar.
> I got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
> retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
> the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
> nowhere near overtight.
>
> I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
> of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
>
> Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
> I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
> fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
> single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...

I've had a similar failure on MA3's. I got some Ambrosio Excellence rims to
replace them.

Its purely subjective but they felt a lot more solid when building and the
creaking noises I thought were coming from the BB stopped with the new rims.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

 

[maxo]

Here's a picture of the offending rim:

 

[Llatikcuf]

maxo wrote:
>
> FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar. I
> got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
> retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
> the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
> nowhere near overtight.
>

The infamous dark anodized rims..... You might want to search the
archives concerning these.

-Nate

 

[Callistus Valerius]

> Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
> got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> with my anecdotal experience.
>
> So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
> recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
>

Kind of disappointing, I had a rear MA3 with 3 cracks in the rim, coming
from the holes, and I retired the wheel. Front one works ok, so I got an
open pro on the back. They look like the same wheelset, so it doesn't look
like a mismathed wheelset.

 

[[email protected]]

someone writes:

> Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet
> that got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> with my anecdotal experience.

> So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do
> a recall on these--it's ridiculously bad engineering.

> FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from
> Nashbar. I got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel
> after a re-truing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn
> from what the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of
> wheels--these felt nowhere near over tight.

> I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing
> out of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.

> Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
> I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
> fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
> single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...

Where's jim beam (aka Southern Comfort) when we need him. He can
explain why this is all your fault and not the anodizing that causes
fractures of this kind. As I have often explained, in the days of
yore there were no rim fractures and that suddenly became prevalent
with the first hard anodized Mavic rims that were advertised to be
much stronger as a result of their surface finish.

Cosmetic (clear and colored) anodizing is relatively benign, being too
thin to cause stress cracks from propagating from the crust into the
base metal. Polished aluminum with no anodizing is better yet. I
rode on those for many years without cracks, as did my riding
companions. My two sets of wheels are still standing there, oxidized
to a dull grey after all these years, for lack of anyone who wants to
ride tubular tires.

Jobst Brandt

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> someone writes:
>
>
>>Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet
>>that got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
>>sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
>>with my anecdotal experience.
>
>
>>So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do
>>a recall on these--it's ridiculously bad engineering.
>
>
>>FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from
>>Nashbar. I got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel
>>after a re-truing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn
>>from what the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of
>>wheels--these felt nowhere near over tight.
>
>
>>I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing
>>out of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
>
>
>>Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
>>I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
>>fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
>>single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...
>
>
> Where's jim beam (aka Southern Comfort) when we need him. He can
> explain why this is all your fault and not the anodizing that causes
> fractures of this kind. As I have often explained, in the days of
> yore there were no rim fractures and that suddenly became prevalent
> with the first hard anodized Mavic rims that were advertised to be
> much stronger as a result of their surface finish.

so when did you ever attend materials lectures jobst? did you ever
discover where the library was? weren't you ever told that a dye
penetrant tests merely confirm existance of cracks, not the cause?
because that's only "evidence" you've ever presented for your "anodizing
causes cracking" theory. and a jolly old laugh it is too. particularly
when we have clear evidence that the crack lines follow the extrusion,
NOT cracks in the anodizing. we even have photographic evidence of your
famous siver ma2's confirming this cracking behavior, not that you ever
care to address that episode because it leads into your other favorite
subject, excess spoke tension. and let's conveniently forget that the
sudden onset of cracking just happened to coincide with publication of
your book shall we? "tension as high as the rim can bear" indeed.

>
> Cosmetic (clear and colored) anodizing is relatively benign, being too
> thin to cause stress cracks from propagating from the crust into the
> base metal. Polished aluminum with no anodizing is better yet.

sure. in palo alto. for anyone else where corrosion and corrosion
induced cracking are concerns, anodizing will significantly prolong the
service life of the rim. that's /why/ it's done. you should check into
the corrosion characteristics of rim alloy classes like 6061 & 6106. i
know that's wishful thinking on my part that you should ever condescend
to check a fact before forming an opinion, but it might mitigate your
credibility problem.

> I
> rode on those for many years without cracks, as did my riding
> companions. My two sets of wheels are still standing there, oxidized
> to a dull grey after all these years,

are these your famous 300k mile wheels? the ones with no dish? and the
ones with the replaced rims, replaced hubs and replaced spokes? but
they're still the same old wheels?

> for lack of anyone who wants to
> ride tubular tires.
>
> Jobst Brandt

 

[jim beam]

maxo wrote:
> Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
> got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> with my anecdotal experience.
>
> So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
> recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
>
> FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar. I
> got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
> retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
> the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
> nowhere near overtight.
>
> I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
> of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
>
> Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
> I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
> fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
> single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...
>

check back in the archive. peter chisholm has a word or two to say
about ma3's.

you'll also find the manufacturer spoke tension spec. ~800N iirc. if
your tension is over that, you're definitely going to increase cracking
propensity.

 

[daveornee]

Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
with my anecdotal experience.

So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.

FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar. I
got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
nowhere near overtight.

I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.

Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...

"The total weight of the rider and his/her equipment (not including the bike) must not exceed the following values:
- Road rims: 100 kg (except for MA3: 85 kg)"
Quoted from tech-mavic.com;
You were right at the weight limit for MA3 rim. Rear usually has signifcantly more load on the right spokes due to the spoke support angles involved.
If you got 10k out of them I would say you did pretty good for those cheap rims.
Mavic OpenPro is rated for 100 kg so you would do better with them.
Ambrosio and Torelli make some pretty nice rims, but I have had my best results with Velocity rims.

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"maxo" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
> got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> with my anecdotal experience.
>
> So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
> recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
>
> FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar. I
> got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
> retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
> the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
> nowhere near overtight.
>
> I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
> of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
>
> Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
> I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
> fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
> single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...

You still have the hubs? Get Sun CR-18 rims and build them up.

--
Michael Press

 

[maxo]

daveornee wrote:

> "The total weight of the rider and his/her equipment (not including the
> bike) must not exceed the following values:
> - Road rims: 100 kg (except for MA3: 85 kg)"
> Quoted from tech-mavic.com;
> You were right at the weight limit for MA3 rim. Rear usually has
> signifcantly more load on the right spokes due to the spoke support
> angles involved.
> If you got 10k out of them I would say you did pretty good for those
> cheap rims.
> Mavic OpenPro is rated for 100 kg so you would do better with them.
> Ambrosio and Torelli make some pretty nice rims, but I have had my best
> results with Velocity rims.


That's absolutely absurd! I'm not going to check or doubt your
quotation legitimacy--but 175# of quite lean 6'2" rider and a fairly
light 23# bike is pushing the limit of a rim? A 36H rim that some
folks tour on?! Yowsah! I'm about 82kg with my gear on--I don't think
my weight was the issue, more like these rims are brittle ****. I've
ridden lots of different rims--all moderate to budget, with big loads
to boot, and never had any issues short of having to true a wheel every
year or two.

To be honest, I don't have a computer on the bike, so the mileage might
be closer to 7K--but I expect a 36H sturdy road rim to last 50K short
of some sort of accident involving egregious impact.

Though I'm tempted to eschew Mavic rims forever, those cxp22s are
rather budget and sturdy looking on paper, but I wonder about real life
strength. Will have to call the LBS tomorrow and see what they have,
I'm tempted to do a Jobst Brandt Switcheroo Sandwich to avoid having to
build the wheel from scratch.

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
> got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> with my anecdotal experience.
>
> So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
> recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
>
> FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar. I
> got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
> retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
> the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
> nowhere near overtight.
>
> I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
> of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
>
> Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
> I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
> fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
> single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...
>
>
after 10K miles, depending on your terrain and weather, the sidewalls
might be near the end of their life anyway. Have you checked? It is
hard to tell from the photo, but there is some wear.

 

[BeeCharmer]

Looks just my rear Reflex after 1000 miles, but I'm 210 and used them
in crits. Check out the Velocity rims. I built up a pair of Pro Elits
(Deep V tubular) and they've been great for the past 1000 miles.
www.worldclasscycles.com

chris

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

maxo wrote:
> Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
> got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> with my anecdotal experience.
>
> So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
> recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.

Yep, it only took us about a dozen failures before we stopped selling
them. mavic...what a hoot.."really, we haven't heard of that"....

>
> FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar. I
> got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
> retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
> the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
> nowhere near overtight.
>
> I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
> of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
>
> Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
> I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
> fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
> single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...


Velocity Fusion or Aero. great rims and there's nothing wrong with the
hub. Find somebody to re-use the hub. I can...call me.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

daveornee wrote:
> maxo Wrote:
> > Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
> > got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> > sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> > with my anecdotal experience.
> >
> > So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
> > recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
> >
> > FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar.
> > I
> > got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
> > retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
> > the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
> > nowhere near overtight.
> >
> > I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
> > of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
> >
> > Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
> > I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
> > fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
> > single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...
> "The total weight of the rider and his/her equipment (not including the
> bike) must not exceed the following values:
> - Road rims: 100 kg (except for MA3: 85 kg)"
> Quoted from tech-mavic.com;
> You were right at the weight limit for MA3 rim. Rear usually has
> signifcantly more load on the right spokes due to the spoke support
> angles involved.
> If you got 10k out of them I would say you did pretty good for those
> cheap rims.
> Mavic OpenPro is rated for 100 kg so you would do better with them.
> Ambrosio and Torelli make some pretty nice rims, but I have had my best
> results with Velocity rims.
>
>
> --
> daveornee

You are wrong to imply it's the rider weight that causes these to fail.
Many we built were for 125 pound women and they had eyelets pull out
anyway. Many fronts also. If a rim can't support 45% of a rider's 200
pound weight, it IS **** and these certainly were.

 

[Lister]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> maxo wrote:
> > Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a eyelet that
> > got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from the
> > sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend these Mavics
> > with my anecdotal experience.
> >
> > So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really should do a
> > recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
>
> Yep, it only took us about a dozen failures before we stopped selling
> them. mavic...what a hoot.."really, we haven't heard of that"....
>
> >
> > FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up from Nashbar. I
> > got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel after a
> > retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn from what
> > the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of wheels--these felt
> > nowhere near overtight.
> >
> > I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so nothing out
> > of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
> >
> > Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap on line?
> > I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros would be
> > fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb proof urban
> > single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...
>
>
> Velocity Fusion or Aero. great rims and there's nothing wrong with the
> hub. Find somebody to re-use the hub. I can...call me.

Isn't the main issue that the MA3 has single eyelets on the inner
surface only, while the MA2 and Open pro have double eyelets that join
the inner and outer surfaces? Wouldn't that make more difference than
the anodizing?

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:15:52 +1100, Bruce Graham wrote:

> after 10K miles, depending on your terrain and weather, the sidewalls
> might be near the end of their life anyway. Have you checked? It is
> hard to tell from the photo, but there is some wear.

For road wheels, 10k miles is a short lifespan for the sidewalls.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

 

[maxo]

Sidewalls are fine. I wore the anodizing off with awful (yet very
expensive) fancy Bontrager brake shoes in the first thousand miles, but
soon switched to classic KoolStop continentals that don't seem to wear
the rim at all.

Well, I'm gonna call the LBS and see if they have a rim with the same
rough depth so I can just transfer hub and spokes a la Jobst.

Otherwise I'm just going to get another set of on sale Nashbar wheels
and destress and tune them myself--has always worked for me in the
past, cheaper than buying the the individual parts, and I don't like to
have more wheel than I can afford to have stolen.

Those cheap Mavic CXP22 rims all right? I see them specced on bikes
ranging from $800 to $2000 bucks and Mavic claims a higher weigh limit
for them. Searching the newsgroup returns no horror stories.

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Lister" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > maxo wrote:
> > > Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a
eyelet that
> > > got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from
the
> > > sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend
these Mavics
> > > with my anecdotal experience.
> > >
> > > So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really
should do a
> > > recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
> >
> > Yep, it only took us about a dozen failures before we stopped
selling
> > them. mavic...what a hoot.."really, we haven't heard of
that"....
> >
> > >
> > > FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up
from Nashbar. I
> > > got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel
after a
> > > retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn
from what
> > > the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of
wheels--these felt
> > > nowhere near overtight.
> > >
> > > I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so
nothing out
> > > of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap
on line?
> > > I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros
would be
> > > fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb
proof urban
> > > single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...
> >
> >
> > Velocity Fusion or Aero. great rims and there's nothing wrong
with the
> > hub. Find somebody to re-use the hub. I can...call me.
>
> Isn't the main issue that the MA3 has single eyelets on the
inner
> surface only, while the MA2 and Open pro have double eyelets
that join
> the inner and outer surfaces? Wouldn't that make more
difference than
> the anodizing?

Yes and no. For example, in my experience, the anodized G40s had
a higher failure rate than their non-annodized equivalent, the
MA2/E2/ModE; they were not saved by the socket design. I pulled
spokes through G40s, GP4s, Open Pros, etc. but never through a
non-anodized MA2. The socket probably helps spread the load
between the inner and out walls, but it does not prevent failure
in anodized rims. I switched to an OC design (Velocity Aerohead)
because it allowed me to build a straight wheel with reasonable
tensions that do not overly stress the spoke hole. -- Jay
Beattie.

 

[Warren Block]

Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> You still have the hubs? Get Sun CR-18 rims and build them up.

For those of us with otherwise-good wheels with MA3 rims:

Is there a decent, easy-to-get rim with the same ERD (607.5mm) as the
MA3?

--
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA