Jay Beattie wrote:
> "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Jay Beattie wrote:
>>
>>>"Lister" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>maxo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Felt a rub on the fender stay and was shocked to see--not a
>>>
>>>eyelet that
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>got pulled out--but a whole section of rim pulled away from
>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>sidewalls. Ironic since I've always been one to defend
>>>
>>>these Mavics
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>with my anecdotal experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So the rumors are true--they're **** rims. :/ Mavic really
>>>
>>>should do a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>recall on these--it's rediculously bad engineering.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yep, it only took us about a dozen failures before we
>
> stopped
>
>>>selling
>>>
>>>
>>>>>them. mavic...what a hoot.."really, we haven't heard of
>>>
>>>that"....
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>FWIW, It's a 36H dark anodized version that I picked up
>>>
>>>from Nashbar. I
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>got it prebuilt on a Sora hub. Decent enough budget wheel
>>>
>>>after a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>retruing. I didn't tighten the spokes more than a 1/4 turn
>>>
>>>from what
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>the original builder did--and I've trued a lot of
>>>
>>>wheels--these felt
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>nowhere near overtight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm 175ish pounds and ride on pavement with 28mm tires, so
>>>
>>>nothing out
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>of the ordinary there. About 10K miles on the rim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Any suggestions for a budget rear wheel I can get for cheap
>>>
>>>on line?
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>I'm through with Mavic, even though I'm sure some OpenPros
>>>
>>>would be
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>fine. Weight is not an issue, as it's going on my bomb
>>>
>>>proof urban
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>single speed. Perhaps time to learn how to build a wheel...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Velocity Fusion or Aero. great rims and there's nothing
>
> wrong
>
>>>with the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>hub. Find somebody to re-use the hub. I can...call me.
>>>>
>>>>Isn't the main issue that the MA3 has single eyelets on the
>>>
>>>inner
>>>
>>>
>>>>surface only, while the MA2 and Open pro have double eyelets
>>>
>>>that join
>>>
>>>
>>>>the inner and outer surfaces? Wouldn't that make more
>>>
>>>difference than
>>>
>>>
>>>>the anodizing?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes and no. For example, in my experience, the anodized G40s
>
> had
>
>>>a higher failure rate than their non-annodized equivalent,
>
> the
>
>>>MA2/E2/ModE; they were not saved by the socket design. I
>
> pulled
>
>>>spokes through G40s, GP4s, Open Pros, etc. but never through
>
> a
>
>>>non-anodized MA2.
>>
>>jay, you never did get back to us on the spoke tension you use.
>
> i
>
>>recall your problems with pulling sockets through open pros
>
> from a while
>
>>back, but that's one heck of a rare occurrance and i seriously
>
> doubt
>
>>it's possible at spoke tensions anywhere near manufacturer
>
> spec.
>
>>and silver ma2's /are/ anodized, just so you know.
>
>
> The old MA2/E2/ModEs were polished and not anodized. Later
> versions of the MA2 and the Gentleman were satin anodized. I
> still have a satin anodized Gentelman. I am talking about the
> old, polished MA2s. In any event, I cannot honestly answer your
> question about spoke tension because I only just recently bought
> a tensiometer. I would guess about 120kgf right side and 100kgf
> left. I built to much higher tensions with 36H/120mm E2
> wheels -- and to ungodly tensions with the Super Champion Mod
> 58s -- with absolutely no problems ever. As for the tension on
> the Open Pros/Open 4CD, they were as tight as necessary to
> prevent them from going slack. I was racing a lot at 200lbs,
> and probably had those at 130kgf right. I could not have run
> them lower and had them stay true -- not without Loctite (or
> something like it), which I prefer not to use on conventional
> wheels. I think a thread lock of some sort is inevitable on the
> low spoke count wheels. -- Jay Beattie.
>
>
thanks for the response jay. i have to say, that while i believe that
you have been experiencing problems, i can't understand why. i weigh
more than you, am strong enough to get some good frame whip going in a
sprint and carry varying loads when i commute. when properly "stress
relieved" [bedded in] i've had very few problems with wheels going out
of true. and i /do/ stick to manufacturer spoke tension spec. and don't
generally use loctite. a while back i switched from campy to shimano
hubs because they have slightly better flange spacing and a
correspondingly better left/right tension ratio, and while i fancy that
could make a small difference, it's not going to be a lot.
to test why wheels might go out of true, i have built wheels without
bedding in [they go out of true immediately] and have built wheels with
"moderate" bedding in [they go out of true moderately quickly]. and
i've built wheels that are fully bedded in, i.e. where you repeat the
over-tension exercise three or more times without any further deviation.
these wheels remain perfectly true afterward and these are the wheels
that are ready to ride. believe it or not, i've also tried the spoke
squeeze method and the mavic "two hands push" method and find the latter
to be more reliable - i can use close to my full body weight without
having to rely on arbitrary hand strength, gloves, etc. excess tension
will achieve the same result in terms of true stability, but at the cost
of rim reliability - as you have seen.
now, for you, if bedding in were to be the problem, loctite would not
help you because bedding in would still occur. however, once bedding in
has been properly achieved, and you're the kind of big honking brute
that regularly slackens left side spokes, then i'd say that loctite /is/
a solution for you to consider.
regarding anodizing, i'm old enough to have bought the mod-e's when they
first came out, and have a couple of ma2's knocking about in the garage.
i can't say i recall the mod-e being polished [guess i need to dig
through mother's attic some time], but both my silver ma2's are
definitely anodized. this accords with the old mavic datasheet i have
for them too. it's not a satin finish like the modern silver anodizing
but it's a kind of faux "bright".
regarding thread lock on low spoke count wheels, my mavics are indeed
nylocked, but my shimano r540's are not. they have large aluminum
nipples that have a higher coefficient of thread friction, but no other
apparent assistance, and tension that is not far off a standard high
spoke count wheel.
anyway, it's great you bought the tensiometer. i'm confident that if
built right, you /can/ have reliable true wheels without excess tension.
