Mail Condemns Guantanamo Abuses



Colorado Ryder said:
Subtleness is not one of your strong traits.

I believe that I have been very subtle.

I have asked Carerra for the past week or so to moderate his own comments.
I politely asked him to make amends.
I have given him ample time to do so.

he has consistently ignored my requests.
 
limerickman said:
I believe that I have been very subtle.

I have asked Carerra for the past week or so to moderate his own comments.
I politely asked him to make amends.
I have given him ample time to do so.

he has consistently ignored my requests.
Is someone not allowed to posts his views here? If Carrera is wrong there are enough posters here to tell him that. Darkboong and FredC seem more than capable of opposing Carrera's point of view. Banning Carrera will only undo all that Darkboong and others have been striving to do.
Banning Carrera will only result in other posters thinking he was banned because Limerickman did not approve of Carrera's point of view.
I'm sure many here enjoy the debate but maybe you want to silence the debate.
 
This really has a very simple solution. If I became aware that my views were genuinely causing upset to too many folks it wouldn't be necessary to ban me. I'd simply moderate posting on politics for obvious reasons. The last thing anyone wants is for anyone else to be offended to the point they don't post themselves as a result.
This is the problem with politics and religion and I suspect explains why religious-theme posts weren't welcome in the past. :(
I confess I have been known to go a wee bit too far or maybe I'm having a bad day and then let blast but I think others sometimes go a bit far too.





limerickman said:
You are free to post whatever views you like elsewhere.

I asked you politely to desist from posting the views that you have posted.
I asked you politiely to retract your own statements that prove that you lied.

You have ignored all my requests.
 
That's true. To be honest, I don't see myself as radical a character as I've been sometimes painted out to be and I'm baffled when Darkboong sometimes refers to me as an extremist. :( I hope there isn't a general feeling of myself being an extremist as that would worry me. :(


Colorado Ryder said:
Is someone not allowed to posts his views here? If Carrera is wrong there are enough posters here to tell him that. Darkboong and FredC seem more than capable of opposing Carrera's point of view. Banning Carrera will only undo all that Darkboong and others have been striving to do.
Banning Carrera will only result in other posters thinking he was banned because Limerickman did not approve of Carrera's point of view.
I'm sure many here enjoy the debate but maybe you want to silence the debate.
 
Lim, I must say that I don't consider Carreras post to be any more if not less extreme than others that post on the opposite of the fence.
I don't always agree with him or even try to understand some of his views but there are less polite people here than he.
This is of course my perspectve so take it as you will. I enjoy reading the banter as long as it is civil.
 
jhuskey said:
Lim, I must say that I don't consider Carreras post to be any more if not less extreme than others that post on the opposite of the fence.
I don't always agree with him or even try to understand some of his views but there are less polite people here than he.
This is of course my perspectve so take it as you will. I enjoy reading the banter as long as it is civil.
........Agree
 
To understand my views, you could read stuff like Plato, for example. I'm a big fan of the ancient Greeks/applied philosophy and that's where I got my views from. Added to that, I'm influenced by Mike Mentzer who was an American philosophy student - also a sportsman and his own ideas were also formed from ideas formulated in ancient Greece.
"How many people do you know who would take the time and effort to constantly relate instances of real life to abstract philosophical principles in the hope that you would clearly understand the importance of these principles and the value of learning them. This type of person is hard to find, and if you think about it, you will see how valuable Mike Mentzer was and still is today. Since he introduced so many people to philosophy, he could be more readily considered a salesman of philosophy than a personal trainer (without neglecting the fact that he was a great personal trainer and exercise theorist). He introduced a large number of people to Objectivism worldwide and is a phenomenal example of "what one man can do"."

jhuskey said:
Lim, I must say that I don't consider Carreras post to be any more if not less extreme than others that post on the opposite of the fence.
I don't always agree with him or even try to understand some of his views but there are less polite people here than he.
This is of course my perspectve so take it as you will. I enjoy reading the banter as long as it is civil.
 
Carrera said:
To understand my views, you could read stuff like Plato, for example. I'm a big fan of the ancient Greeks/applied philosophy and that's where I got my views from. Added to that, I'm influenced by Mike Mentzer who was an American philosophy student - also a sportsman and his own ideas were also formed from ideas formulated in ancient Greece.
"How many people do you know who would take the time and effort to constantly relate instances of real life to abstract philosophical principles in the hope that you would clearly understand the importance of these principles and the value of learning them. This type of person is hard to find, and if you think about it, you will see how valuable Mike Mentzer was and still is today. Since he introduced so many people to philosophy, he could be more readily considered a salesman of philosophy than a personal trainer (without neglecting the fact that he was a great personal trainer and exercise theorist). He introduced a large number of people to Objectivism worldwide and is a phenomenal example of "what one man can do"."

By "understanding" I mean understanding why yourself and others view things as you do. Two individuals with the same information arrive at a totally different conclusion..
 
Carrera said:
It's an easy option to ban me but I'm afraid that doesn't stop the free press. I have an article on the Hamza case to be published soon in the newspaper (I'm not saying which one).
Another point is, real life isn't a soap box where contrasting information will be censored. If you guys want to debate within a plastic world of your own and kick anyone out who challenges your views, don't kid yourself the real world is one where every challenge can be simply deleted.
You were also wrong on the Aramaic question as I submitted that view to our classics board for everyone else to comment so that's one point for a start. And Chavez has only just attacked your defence of Argentina which he claims is illegal.
What makes you the judge and jury that everything you say is right and everything I say is wrong. How can you be so sure?
You are not a member of the NUJ.
We were not wrong on the Aramaic language.
Since when have I defended Argentina?
 
Carrera said:
It simply amazes me you and Fred apparently support Abu Hamza. :confused: Have you read the statements he made that were used in his court trial? This is a guy who gloated over the shuttle disaster, calling the astronauts a "Trinity Of Evil" and I even saw him directly tell Tim Sebastian on Hard Talk what his theories were on that disaster, amongst over rantings that left even TS speechless.
Where is it stated that both Lim and I support Abu Hamza?
You're heading for big trouble.
 
Carrera said:
. I'd simply moderate posting on politics for obvious reasons. The last thing anyone wants is for anyone else to be offended to the point they don't post themselves as a result.
This is the problem with politics and religion and I suspect explains why religious-theme posts weren't welcome in the past. :(
I confess I have been known to go a wee bit too far or maybe I'm having a bad day and then let blast but I think others sometimes go a bit far too.

But your problem is that you're incapable of self-moderation.
I asked you to moderate your comments, politely from the outset.
You ignored me.

I pointed out the contradictions where you made claims that were patently false and I asked you to moderate and or retract those statements
You didn't.

I suggested to you again last week that you hadn't taken any notice of what I asked you do - you refused to acknowledge or reply to me either publicly or privately.

What am I to do?
I gave you enough latitude to get your house in order.
I asked you politely.
You refused.

I have no other option left.

This isn't a debate.

The onus is on you to put your house in order.
If you can't do so - I will.
 
Colorado Ryder said:
Is someone not allowed to posts his views here? If Carrera is wrong there are enough posters here to tell him that. Darkboong and FredC seem more than capable of opposing Carrera's point of view. Banning Carrera will only undo all that Darkboong and others have been striving to do.
Banning Carrera will only result in other posters thinking he was banned because Limerickman did not approve of Carrera's point of view.
I'm sure many here enjoy the debate but maybe you want to silence the debate.
I can handle myself as you say. What I mainly object to is the falsification from Careera of 'facts' that I have never uttered, and his every excuse to be anti-Moslem (Islam) to any situation that he invents on behalf of a third party as well as his own. I will try to make a simple comparison. If any poster had taken the same stance on Anti-Semitism, as he has taken on Anti-Islam, then they would have been banished long ago, and not necessary by Lim, but by Steve in Oz.
His latest smokescreen refers to Plato philosophy, and existentialism, which is miles off topic.
IMO he is a racist bigot, who has been asked to retract false and insinuating postings. He has failed to do so on all occasions when asked to retract by Lim, and has completely ignored all 'yellow card' warnings to mend his ways, so it looks as though he's asking for a 'red card', and will be going for an early bath.
I don't mind polemics and rhetoric as you know, but I draw the line at defending statements that I have never made. See above.
 
FredC said:
I can handle myself as you say. What I mainly object to is the falsification from Careera of 'facts' that I have never uttered, and his every excuse to be anti-Moslem (Islam) to any situation that he invents on behalf of a third party as well as his own. I will try to make a simple comparison. If any poster had taken the same stance on Anti-Semitism, as he has taken on Anti-Islam, then they would have been banished long ago, and not necessary by Lim, but by Steve in Oz.
His latest smokescreen refers to Plato philosophy, and existentialism, which is miles off topic.
IMO he is a racist bigot, who has been asked to retract false and insinuating postings. He has failed to do so on all occasions when asked to retract by Lim, and has completely ignored all 'yellow card' warnings to mend his ways, so it looks as though he's asking for a 'red card', and will be going for an early bath.
I don't mind polemics and rhetoric as you know, but I draw the line at defending statements that I have never made. See above.
Censorship is not the answer. The soapbox exists for a free exchange of ideas. Whether they are factual are not is irrelevant. If they are not factual, that is where Darkboong and yourself come in. You can expose him to be what you say he is.

If we are going to ban people because of false and insinuating and unprovable postings, then we need look no further than Wurm. He has stated that Bush was complicite in 9/11. He has re-hashed a pipeline theory that has been going around since the 1970's. But I don't see anyone asking him to mend his ways. Fair is fair. Lets hold the same standard for Carrera to all other posters.
 
limerickman said:
...I have no other option left.

This isn't a debate.

The onus is on you to put your house in order.
If you can't do so - I will.
Lim, I am asking you not to ban Carrera. I may not agree with his views, but I do believe he should be allowed to express them. In terms of the effect on others, we are all able to determine when a point has been successfully defended. How are any of us to adjust our views if we are not permitted to bounce them off others.
Freedom of speech is the greatest quality of this forum. If Carrera's postings raise your ire, either rebut them (as you have been doing) or ignore them (as countless millions of the World's populace do).
Banning Carrera will not lead him to change his views (if anything it will reinforce them) and it will prevent the rest of us from hearing them and rebutting them or agreeing with them as is our wont.
Besides, if he were banned from here, he might spend more time getting that canal tub going and become a nautical danger to the waterways of England. That must be prevented at all costs.
 
Colorado Ryder said:
Censorship is not the answer. The soapbox exists for a free exchange of ideas. Whether they are factual are not is irrelevant. If they are not factual, that is where Darkboong and yourself come in. You can expose him to be what you say he is.

Bu he has been exposed and yet he continues to post what is factually incorrect.


Colorado Ryder said:
If we are going to ban people because of false and insinuating and unprovable postings, then we need look no further than Wurm. He has stated that Bush was complicite in 9/11. He has re-hashed a pipeline theory that has been going around since the 1970's. But I don't see anyone asking him to mend his ways. Fair is fair. Lets hold the same standard for Carrera to all other posters.

In fairness to Wurm, he backed up his allegations about Bush by referring and linking the US SENATE COMMISSION REPORT ON 9/11.
How can I be expected to ask Wurm to mend that accusation when he quotes a report from YOUR OWN COUNTRY'S LEGISLATURE?
Did you or anyone challenge Wurm on this ?
No.
Did anyone show where Wurm may have lied?
No.

Fair is fair.

I will cite one instance : Carerra stated 11/2/06 that British police didn't arrest Abu Hamza - look at message 8 on this thread if you don't believe me.
The statement he made in message 8 is a lie.

No can be charged/tried/convicted in a British court unless they have been arrested by the British police.

I have highlighted other instances over the past three weeks showing that what Carerra stated was factually incorrect.

I asked him politely to correct himself.
He refused.
I asked him to moderate himself.
He refused.
I linked his statements to evidence that rebutted his statements.
He refused to acknowledge any of it.

Instead he continued to post statements which were lies.
 
FredC said:
...IMO he is a racist bigot, who has been asked to retract false and insinuating postings. He has failed to do so on all occasions when asked to retract by Lim, and has completely ignored all 'yellow card' warnings to mend his ways, so it looks as though he's asking for a 'red card', and will be going for an early bath.
I don't mind polemics and rhetoric as you know, but I draw the line at defending statements that I have never made. See above.
Fred,
When Carrera (or anyone else) accuses you of making statements that you haven't made and doesn't accept your challenge to provide proof, we all take it that the accusation is false. If the accuser apologises specifically for their error, they may grow a little in our eyes. If they ignore or evade, they may shrink.
We're playing a game of backyard footy here. Even though Lim has an umpire's ticket, we should still be able to play without him bringing a whistle and a set of coloured cards.
 
limerickman said:
...I will cite one instance : Carerra stated 11/2/06 that British police didn't arrest Abu Hamza - look at message 8 on this thread if you don't believe me.
The statement he made in message 8 is a lie.

No can be charged/tried/convicted in a British court unless they have been arrested by the British police.

I have highlighted other instances over the past three weeks showing that what Carerra stated was factually incorrect.

I asked him politely to correct himself.
He refused.
I asked him to moderate himself.
He refused.
I linked his statements to evidence that rebutted his statements.
He refused to acknowledge any of it.

Instead he continued to post statements which were lies.
Acknowledged, Lim. We all saw that and we took it for what it was. We're just asking that this forum be regulated through rebuttal and exposure of falsehoods and fallacies, rather than through banishment.
 

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