Making Campagnolo 9/10 Speed Rear Hub/Cassette Compatible with Dura-Ace 7 Speed

[Rosco]

In an earlier post I described how I wanted to temporarily
take parts off an old bike (1988 vintage Dura-Ace 7 speed)
and move them to a new one for a while. The eventual goal
is to turn the new bike into a Campagnolo 10 speed (when
funds allow), and return the old parts back to their
original bike.

The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette
compatibility. My current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic
cartridge sealed bearing hub with a 7 speed freewheel. The
new frame uses non-bendable materials, so cold setting the
rear really isn't an option (an even if it was, that
approach doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe that
converting that hub to 130mm spacing would be fairly
expensive and difficult. Since my longer term goal is to go
Campagnolo 10 speed, I don't have a problem investing in a
Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can be
made to work with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and
naturally be used as a 10 speed setup when I make the big
switch latter on.

It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can convert
from 9 speed Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo. From looking
at some reference tables on Sheldon Brown's website
(http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears that
Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the same
center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm). If this is
correct, it seems natural to do this conversion, but only
use 7 of the 8 sprockets that remain on the cassette. Do I
have this right? I've also seen a seller of this kit suggest
it could also be used to convert from Campagnolo 10 speed to
Campagnolo 8 speed (and Shimano 7 speed by my extension)
since the cog width of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the
same. Starting from 10 speed has the advantage that I
eventually end up with the cassette I want after doing the
total Campagnolo conversion latter on.

It appears like you'd want to start with a Veloce 10 speed
cassette. The most natural one to choose is the:

13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26. My existing 7 speed freewheel
is: 13-14-15-----17-----19-21----24. So to create something
similar, I could use the following: 13-14-15-----17-----19-21-23-
26, from the Veloce, but not actually have the deraileur
engage the 26.

Am I think about this in the right way? Also in doing the
conversion, can you eliminate any 2 of the existing
sprockets or are there restrictions such as being required
to use the existing smallest sprocket?

Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or 10
speed chain?

 

[Sheldon Brown]

rosco wrote:

> In an earlier post I described how I wanted to temporarily
> take parts off an old bike (1988 vintage Dura-Ace 7 speed)
> and move them to a new one for a while. The eventual goal
> is to turn the new bike into a Campagnolo 10 speed (when
> funds allow), and return the old parts back to their
> original bike.
>
> The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette
> compatibility. My current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced
> Mavic cartridge sealed bearing hub with a 7 speed
> freewheel. The new frame uses non-bendable materials, so
> cold setting the rear really isn't an option (an even if
> it was, that approach doesn't excite me). I've been lead
> to believe that converting that hub to 130mm spacing would
> be fairly expensive and difficult.

Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would
be a quick and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the
indexing on your derailer, but it should work just fine.

> Since my longer term goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed, I
> don't have a problem investing in a Campagnolo rear wheel
> in the short term as long as it can be made to work with
> my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a
> 10 speed setup when I make the big switch latter on.

I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could be made to index OK
with your old Dura-Ace derailer and a 7-speed setup...might
make a useful intermediate option.

> It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can convert
> from 9 speed Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo. From
> looking at some reference tables on Sheldon Brown's
> website (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears
> that Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly
> the same center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).

That's correct.

> If this is correct, it seems natural to do this
> conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets that remain
> on the cassette. Do I have this right? I've also seen a
> seller of this kit suggest it could also be used to
> convert from Campagnolo 10 speed to Campagnolo 8 speed
> (and Shimano 7 speed by my extension) since the cog width
> of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the same. Starting from
> 10 speed has the advantage that I eventually end up with
> the cassette I want after doing the total Campagnolo
> conversion latter on.
>

Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed cassette? I'm 99% sure
they fit on the newer hubs.

> Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or 10
> speed chain?

Use a chain that matches the spacing. I'd go with a Sram
PC58 for this application.

Sheldon "Save Ya Money" Brown +----------------------------------------------------------
-----------+
| It is amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being
| too tired. | --Robert A. Heinlein |
+-----------------------------------------------------------
----------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-
find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Paul Kopit]

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:51:41 GMT, "rosco"
<reverse-the-following"ocsor_g"@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Campagnolo rear wheel in the short term as long as it can
>be made to work with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and
>naturally be used as a 10 speed setup when I make the big
>switch latter on.

My memory is not so great but I think that is you use Campy
10 shifters and a Shimano rear derailleur you will shift
the 7sp ok.

 

[Rosco]

"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> rosco wrote:

> >
> > The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette
> > compatibility.
My
> > current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic cartridge
> > sealed bearing hub
with
> > a 7 speed freewheel. The new frame uses non-bendable
> > materials, so cold setting the rear really isn't an
> > option (an even if it was, that
approach
> > doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe that
> > converting that hub
to
> > 130mm spacing would be fairly expensive and difficult.

> Sheldon Replied: Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end
> of the axle would be a quick and dirty solution. You'd
> need to re-adjust the indexing on your derailer, but it
> should work just fine.

That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle
protrusion of about
4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in
the dropout on the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual locknut
equivalent on the existing cartridge sealed bearing setup
is designed to grip onto the dropout when the skewer is
tensioned. Are there any safety concerns with only a 2.75
mm axlw protrustion, and that loose 2mm washers wouldn't
be grippy against the dropout in the same sense?

> > Since my longer term goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed,
> > I don't have a problem investing in a Campagnolo rear
> > wheel in the short term as long as it can be made to
work
> > with my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be
> > used as a 10 speed setup when I make the big switch
> > latter on.
>

> Sheldon Replied: I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could
> be made to index OK with your old Dura-Ace derailer and a
> 7-speed setup...might make a useful intermediate option.

Since I'm looking to save money, my primary interest is in
having this stuff work with my existing Dura-Ace downtube
shifters and deraileurs. The brifters will come latter on
when I move the whole thing to Campagnolo 10 speed.
>
> > It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can
> > convert from 9 speed Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo.
> > From looking at some reference tables
on
> > Sheldon Brown's website
> > (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears that
> > Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the
> > same center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).

> Sheldon Replied: That's correct.

>
> > If this is correct, it seems natural to do this
> > conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets
that
> > remain on the cassette. Do I have this right? I've also
> > seen a seller
of
> > this kit suggest it could also be used to convert from
> > Campagnolo 10
speed
> > to Campagnolo 8 speed (and Shimano 7 speed by my
> > extension) since the
cog
> > width of Campagnolo 9 and 10 speeds are the same.
> > Starting from 10
speed
> > has the advantage that I eventually end up with the
> > cassette I want
after
> > doing the total Campagnolo conversion latter on.
> >

> Sheldon Replied: Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed
> cassette? I'm 99% sure they fit on the newer hubs.

I believe any 1998 and latter Campagnolo 8-speed cassettes
will work. Didn't they change their spline pattern in 1997?
If I could pick up an inexpensive cassette that might be a
reasonable possibility. The ones Harris lists (via QBP) are
about $60. A 10 speed Veloce cassette is about $100 and a
Wheels Shift-8 kit is about $30. With this approach, at the
end of the day (after the complete conversion to Campagnolo
10 spd) I end up with a cassette I'll continue to use and
only have expended the $30 for the Shift-8 kit.

>
> > Lastly, after doing this conversion do I use a 7, 8 or
> > 10 speed chain?
>
> Use a chain that matches the spacing. I'd go with a Sram
> PC58 for this application.
>
> Sheldon "Save Ya Money" Brown

 

[Sheldon Brown]

rosco wrote:

>>>The next problem I need to solve is rear wheel/cassette
>>>compatibility.
>
> My
>
>>>current rear wheel is a 126mm spaced Mavic cartridge
>>>sealed bearing hub with a 7 speed freewheel. The new
>>>frame uses non-bendable materials, so cold setting the
>>>rear really isn't an option (an even if it was, that
>>>approach doesn't excite me). I've been lead to believe
>>>that converting that hub to 130mm spacing would be fairly
>>>expensive and difficult.
>
I suggested:

>>Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would
>>be a quick and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the
>>indexing on your derailer, but it should work just fine.
>
So rosco goes:
>
> That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle
> protrusion of about
> 4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in
> the dropout on the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual
> locknut equivalent on the existing cartridge sealed
> bearing setup is designed to grip onto the dropout when
> the skewer is tensioned. Are there any safety concerns
> with only a 2.75 mm axlw protrustion, and that loose 2mm
> washers wouldn't be grippy against the dropout in the
> same sense?

I'm assuming that your 130 mm frame has vertical dropouts,
as almost all
do. In that case there's no issue whatever with this,
there's more than enough axle protrusion.

>>>Since my longer term goal is to go Campagnolo 10 speed, I
>>>don't have a problem investing in a Campagnolo rear wheel
>>>in the short term as long as it can be made to work with
>>>my Dura-Ace 7 speed equipment, and naturally be used as a
>>>10 speed setup when I make the big switch latter on.
>>
>
>>Sheldon Replied: I'll bet Campag 10-speed brifters could
>>be made to index OK with your old Dura-Ace derailer and a
>>7-speed setup...might make a useful intermediate option.
>
> Since I'm looking to save money, my primary interest is in
> having this stuff work with my existing Dura-Ace downtube
> shifters and deraileurs. The brifters will come latter on
> when I move the whole thing to Campagnolo 10 speed.

If you're doing it piecemeal, as you suggest, you the
cost of a pair of Campagnolo brifters is comparable to
the cost of a new rear wheel, and gives more benefit in
the short run.

>>>It seem like the Wheels Mfg part (Shift-8 kit) can
>>>convert from 9 speed Campagnolo to 8 speed Campagnolo.
>>>From looking at some reference tables
>> on
>>>Sheldon Brown's website
>>>(http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) it appears that
>>>Campagnolo 8 speed and Shimano 7 speed have exactly the
>>>same center-to-center spacing between sprockets (5mm).
>
>>Sheldon Replied: That's correct.
>
>>>If this is correct, it seems natural to do this
>>>conversion, but only use 7 of the 8 sprockets that remain
>>>on the cassette. Do I have this right?

I would guess that you'd be able to use all 8 with your
downtube shifters. Shimano lever-type shifters can usually
go past the last click, and the lowest gear would be indexed
by the low-gear limit stop rather than by a detent in the
shifter. This used to be a popular upgrade in the MTB world
to make 7-speed thumb shifters work with 8-speed cassettes.

Instead of a 10-speed cassette and a Wheels spacer kit, I
suggested:

>>Why not just buy a Campagnolo 8-speed cassette? I'm 99%
>>sure they fit on the newer hubs.
>
>
> I believe any 1998 and latter Campagnolo 8-speed cassettes
> will work. Didn't they change their spline pattern in
> 1997? If I could pick up an inexpensive cassette that
> might be a reasonable possibility. The ones Harris lists
> (via QBP) are about $60. A 10 speed Veloce cassette is
> about $100 and a Wheels Shift-8 kit is about $30. With
> this approach, at the end of the day (after the complete
> conversion to Campagnolo 10 spd) I end up with a cassette
> I'll continue to use and only have expended the $30 for
> the Shift-8 kit.

You would presumably be buying an "8-speed" chain to use
with the re-spaced cassette. Then, when you do finally make
the upgrade to 10 youll need to buy a new chain anyway.

I you go with the spacer option, this chain will then be
used on a cassette consiting of 2 new and 8 used sprockets.
Also, this option involves the short-term outlay of $130 vs
$60 for my suggestion.

If you go with the 8-speed cassette, in the long run you'll
be spending $30 more, but when you do the final upgrade
you'll have an all new 10 speed cassette to go with your
new chain.

I guess this comes down to how long you expect to ride the
bike in the intermediate setup.

Another consideration is the available gearing. Presumably
you have a desired gear range to suit your conditions. If
you buy a 10-speed with that range then remove two of the
sprockets, you'll either have inadequate range or unpleasant
gaps in your shift sequence.

Sheldon "Choices, Choices..." Brown +-----------------------------------------------------
---------+
| No state has an inherent right to survive through |
| conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever
| has. | --Robert A. Heinlein |
+-----------------------------------------------------------
---+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Rosco]

Thank you Sheldon.

Your reasoning makes sense.

I'll take this approach...

Take my existing rear wheel and put the 2mm washers on and
see how that works. If that works OK, that will be the
least expensive intermediate setup possible as all of my
existing components move over with only needing a $20ish
bottom bracket.

If I need to go to a Campagnolo rear wheel, I'll then get
the $60 Record 8 speed cassette as you suggest.

 

[A Muzi]

> "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>Sticking a loose 2 mm washer on each end of the axle would
>>be a quick and dirty solution. You'd need to re-adjust the
>>indexing on your derailer, but it should work just fine.

rosco wrote:
> That is an interesting solution. Each end has an axle
> protrusion of about
> 4.75mm, so a 2mm washer would leave only 2.75mm sitting in
> the dropout on the 130mm spaced frame. The virtual
> locknut equivalent on the existing cartridge sealed
> bearing setup is designed to grip onto the dropout when
> the skewer is tensioned. Are there any safety concerns
> with only a 2.75 mm axlw protrustion, and that loose 2mm
> washers wouldn't be grippy against the dropout in the
> same sense?

I explained this to you on the telephone yesterday in
exactly the words Sheldon uses. The end of the axle need
only locate itself within the frame end (drop out). The
locknut on one face and the skewer on the other actually
clamp to the bicycle. The axle stub is not a load-bearing
part. Your Mavic hub is neither simple nor cheap to respace.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971