Man, do I love racism.



On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 05:27:35 GMT, "IMKen" <[email protected]> wrote:

>With
>the exception of those too crippled to move, all were responsible for their
>situation but now we are funding to the tune of billions, their rescue and
>maintenance for an unknown period of time that could be the remainder of
>their lives.


There were some that went to the evacuation points and no
transportation came. This was before the point of Federal intervention
and was evidently primarily due to the Mayor's failure to commandeer
local transport before the storm hit. Some people intended to leave
and did not get the help they needed.

I will give the caveat that no one else seems to want to apply. I'm
going on the news reports as reported in either the Washington Post,
the Washington Times, the Baltimore Sun or (rarely) the Annapolis
Capital. I give almost zero credence to ten and twenty second
reporting on TV, reporting I know to get the late football games
incorrect, reporting molded to ratings even more so than newspapers.
But the infrastructure that would provide much of the winnowing of
fact from rumor and fiction is also probably severely damaged and what
is left is probably heavily politicized. Having read the above in
three newspapers might only mean that I read three rewrites of the
same original report.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 04:15:42 GMT, "Gooserider"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>If you pick up some food floating in the water---NOT LOOTING


If anyone picked up food off the store shelves, they were also not
looting in my book. If you are hungry and there is no infrastructure,
not taking food is simply stupid. I've seen worse actions than that at
bike races. Hell, someone in this area evidently 'stole' an entry fee
with a bad credit card or something.

And you don't leave the money if you are honest - you pay when someone
is there to take it. And as I've seen that happen, I won't write off
the possibility that those taking food or medication are honest
people.

Finally, I take complaints - part of my job. There is an unfortunate
response that people have when someone finally appears (yeah, OK, it
is often 'appears') to listen - they vent all of their problems,
complaints and fears, however unreasonable. They are often a bit
embarrassed when they calm down and the venting is over (more things
that I've seen at bike races, but with less reason). I'm not terribly
bothered at people in New Orleans in general just because the TV
reporters have found someone that is looking to vent on TV - these are
the same people that put microphones in the faces of people breaking
down because they've just learned someone in their immediate family
has died - I think they call it 'good TV'.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
D. Ferguson wrote:

> It was an estimated 40,000 people in Gulf Shores, with tourists.
> Gov. Riley made a mandatory evacuation order for everything south of
> I-10. That makes for 100,000 people in Baldwin county, alone.
> Mobile county would make for another 400,000. Not that 100% would or
> could leave.


We're approaching the point of discussing minutiae, but it's likely
that each and every tourist had a vehicle that brought them to GS and
would be able to take them out, since the closest commercial airport is
Pensacola, FL. 40K people seem like a lot until you think of the
dispersal after a pro or major college football game. The differences
being that after a game you do not have the potential for widespread
panic and you have a corps of authority figures with a well rehearsed
routine to follow (although you don't have one way streets for miles
and miles).

>
> Oddly enough, I don't think as many left this time around because the
> damage beyond the first 5 miles from the beach wasn't too bad for
> Ivan. Probably people in Mississippi felt that they could ride it out
> if they weren't too close to the beach.


Agreed. My point about being jaded.
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On 4 Sep 2005 18:54:53 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Starting to
> >look like the spin is going to be to blame the local leaders and
> >Governors for the slow response, that's what observers and local
> >leaders are saying.

>
> And your ability to evidently completely dismiss the local leaders'
> responsibility for making this much worse than it had to be is also
> becoming somewhat predictable.
>
> There seems more than enough blame to go around and much of it starts
> with the actions of the mayor - failure to put enough effort into the
> initial exodus out of New Orleans, failure of will to commandeer
> available transport for those without - this was all before anyone
> else had input or was pulled into the process. He is now the most
> vocal cheerleader that it is all a Federal failure. How bloody
> convenient...
>
> There will be a lot of points of failure on this one, but the first
> point of failure was the backbone of the mayor of New Orleans.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

I'm not trying to blame just the Federal Government, I'm perfectly
aware of the failures of the locals too, but the mayor of N.O. has very
limited power and resources, both before and after the storm:

http://tinyurl.com/e3tko
You'll have to scroll down a ways to find this.
Nagin said slow response cost lives

Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005 7:57 p.m.
Frustrated and grieving, Mayor Ray Nagin on Sunday again ripped
the painfully slow response of state and federal
authorities to the plight of tens of thousands of
stranded New Orleanians in the days following
Hurricane Katrina, saying their inaction cost lives
and caused needless misery.

I'm also trying to find an article I saw last night which made it
clear that the Mayor had zero legal authority to declare martial law,
it had to come from the Governor.
Here's a bit I picked up from one of the military newsletters I get:
http://tinyurl.com/7lydg



Navy ship nearby underused
Craft with food, water, doctors needed orders

By Stephen J. Hedges
Tribune national correspondent
Published September 4, 2005


ON THE USS BATAAN -- While federal and state emergency planners
scramble to get more military relief to Gulf Coast communities stricken
by Hurricane Katrina, a massive naval goodwill station has been
cruising offshore, underused and waiting for a larger role in the
effort.

Curtis you're absolutely right about there being plenty of blame to go
around, but there has NEVER been a major city completely evacuated,
anywhere, anytime, except maybe Chernobyl. With no authority to declare
martial law and start forcing people to leave at gunpoint just how was
he supposed to get the city evacuated? And evacutated to where? As far
as I know noone has the capacity to put up a million plus people, lot's
of whom don't want to be there.
I spent a lot of time last night watching an in-depth show on the
science behind what happened to N.O., and a huge part of the problem is
clearly the loss of coastal buffer, unfortunately one of the things
that has greatly accelerated that was the work done by the Corp of
Engineers that was needed to keep the port of N.O. from silting in. No,
good answer, and not enough study of the problem. The actions of the
Corp all along the Mississippi have been controversial for years, and
have been a balancing act between commercial and environmental
interests. They are a huge political football, so we don't seem to be
getting anywhere. They have also had huge internal problems in the past
with management misconduct.
The point I have been making all along is that the Federal government,
has the resources, or had at least, and had offers of plenty more that
could've been on standby and ready to go, some of which were, and were
blocked from going in by Homeland Security. I'll guarantee you that
N.O. doesn't have airborne communications relays, but where the hell
are the military ones? The chopper pilots are *****ing about the fact
that the communications in Iraq are better, and that's due in large
part because there is almost always and airbore relay up over any
tactical situation to provide comm. unless we have lost air
superiority.
Could they have done more at the state and local level, yeah probably,
more so at the state though. Could we have done more at the federal
where major disaster emergency response is supposed to come from? You
bet your ass. You've had the former head of FEMA hired by the state to
work with them, and he has blasted what's become of an agency he
rebuilt and made function prettty well. He makes no bones about the
fact that it has been gutted after being dumped into Homeland Security.
The evidence is massively overwhelming from sources all across the
political spectrum of a major federal failure.
Bill C
 
On 5 Sep 2005 08:56:48 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote:

Watching reports today it appears that the US Military has special
Colonels just for these situations and had things in position when
they saw the hurricane go from a 2 to a 3 in the gulf. From there,
along with the national guard they wait for orders. A power struggle
between the federal government and the state government ensued in
where the feds wanted complete control.

Goveners declined, words went around the table, by the time they got
the national guard on the move things were already behind. The roads
were impassable in areas and they had to clear their way in. Once they
got to the outskirts of N.O. they were again on hold waiting to know
exactly where to do, how many, etc..
 
On 5 Sep 2005 08:56:48 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm also trying to find an article I saw last night which made it
>clear that the Mayor had zero legal authority to declare martial law,
>it had to come from the Governor.


It doesn't require martial law to put all public buses on the road to
the pick up sites. That did not happen, not by a long shot. He flat
out screwed up and had no real plans in place, other than to say,
"Leave the city." He had pick up sites and not enough pick up.

So plan B is keep saying the state and federal governments screwed up.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Maybe this isn't racism, but it doesn't look good.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_superdome_hk1
>
> "At one point Friday, the evacuation was interrupted briefly when school
> buses pulled up so some 700 guests and employees from the Hyatt Hotel
> could move to the head of the evacuation line - much to the amazement of
> those who had been crammed in the Superdome since last Sunday.
> "How does this work? They (are) clean, they are dry, they get out ahead of
> us?" exclaimed Howard Blue, 22, who tried to get in their line. The
> National Guard blocked him as other guardsmen helped the well-dressed
> guests with their luggage.
>
> The 700 had been trapped in the hotel, near the Superdome, but conditions
> were considerably cleaner, even without running water, than the unsanitary
> crush inside the dome."
>

So what's wrong with letting the tourists return to their homes?
 
Carl Sundquist wrote:

> We're approaching the point of discussing minutiae, but it's likely
> that each and every tourist had a vehicle that brought them to GS and
> would be able to take them out, since the closest commercial airport is
> Pensacola, FL. 40K people seem like a lot until you think of the
> dispersal after a pro or major college football game. The differences
> being that after a game you do not have the potential for widespread
> panic and you have a corps of authority figures with a well rehearsed
> routine to follow (although you don't have one way streets for miles
> and miles).


Unless it's a Maryland game (especially a basketball game)
in which case you better RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! My office is
down the street so if I make the mistake of working late, I
just hunker down and hope the tear gas doesn't seep through
the window.

Okay, I'm joking, but illustrating that panic, bad behavior,
and cops losing control of the situation can happen even in
much tamer situations than a devastating flood.
 
IMKen wrote:
> "Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:%[email protected]...
> >
> > "IMKen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> I'm sure or at least hoping that things get organized soon and that help
> >> is available tomorrow for those poor folks. I hope that the ade will
> >> alleviate the looting situation. Most of it I am certain is strictly do
> >> to survival. People have to eat and will do what is necessary to
> >> survive. Glad I am not there or I would be taking what i needed for
> >> survival right along with the others. That would be a tiny part of
> >> balancing out the racial appearance.
> >>
> >> Bless them all.

> >
> > Bless them all? Even the murderers and rapists? You seem to forget about
> > the gangs of armed thugs shooting people and beating people to death in
> > the Superdome. How about the ones who tried to break into Children's
> > Hospital? There were a lot worse things going on there than looting.
> >

>
> Yeah, I come and go on my feelings about the folks I see on the TV. I have
> no compassion for those bums that are healthy and capable of working for a
> living as well as being capable of helping themselves through a disaster. A
> disaster they could have avoided by following the order to evacuate. They
> are in that squalor because of their disrespect for the order to leave. By
> staying they have cost this country billions in saving their asses and now
> paying for their keep. Next they and their leaders in DC and the NAACP will
> be seeking Compensation for their self inflicted suffering.
>
> It was a failing of the local governments not to issue a Shoot to Kill order
> for looting or violence on the day the storm struck or for that matter, the
> day before it struck.

Not in his legal authority to be able to do so. Good thing too. Think
about the OJ riots and Gates LAPD with shoot to kill orders.
Bill C
 
"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> IMKen wrote:
>> "Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:%[email protected]...
>> >
>> > "IMKen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> >> I'm sure or at least hoping that things get organized soon and that
>> >> help
>> >> is available tomorrow for those poor folks. I hope that the ade will
>> >> alleviate the looting situation. Most of it I am certain is strictly
>> >> do
>> >> to survival. People have to eat and will do what is necessary to
>> >> survive. Glad I am not there or I would be taking what i needed for
>> >> survival right along with the others. That would be a tiny part of
>> >> balancing out the racial appearance.
>> >>
>> >> Bless them all.
>> >
>> > Bless them all? Even the murderers and rapists? You seem to forget
>> > about
>> > the gangs of armed thugs shooting people and beating people to death in
>> > the Superdome. How about the ones who tried to break into Children's
>> > Hospital? There were a lot worse things going on there than looting.
>> >

>>
>> Yeah, I come and go on my feelings about the folks I see on the TV. I
>> have
>> no compassion for those bums that are healthy and capable of working for
>> a
>> living as well as being capable of helping themselves through a disaster.
>> A
>> disaster they could have avoided by following the order to evacuate.
>> They
>> are in that squalor because of their disrespect for the order to leave.
>> By
>> staying they have cost this country billions in saving their asses and
>> now
>> paying for their keep. Next they and their leaders in DC and the NAACP
>> will
>> be seeking Compensation for their self inflicted suffering.
>>
>> It was a failing of the local governments not to issue a Shoot to Kill
>> order
>> for looting or violence on the day the storm struck or for that matter,
>> the
>> day before it struck.

> Not in his legal authority to be able to do so. Good thing too. Think
> about the OJ riots and Gates LAPD with shoot to kill orders.
> Bill C


There were OJ riots? I remember Rodney King riots, but not OJ.
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On 5 Sep 2005 08:56:48 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'm also trying to find an article I saw last night which made it
> >clear that the Mayor had zero legal authority to declare martial law,
> >it had to come from the Governor.

>
> It doesn't require martial law to put all public buses on the road to
> the pick up sites. That did not happen, not by a long shot. He flat
> out screwed up and had no real plans in place, other than to say,
> "Leave the city." He had pick up sites and not enough pick up.
>
> So plan B is keep saying the state and federal governments screwed up.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

After you pick up a million people where do you put them? He's not
perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I think you are
massively overestimating just how much more he could have done
effectively. I was watching people yesterday fighting with Coast Guard
rescuers that they wanted to continue to stay.
Everyone should've done a LOT more before the storm hit. That
should,ve been coordinated through FEMA and according to the former
director, in the past it would've happened.
This is one piece from yesterday's Washington Post:
http://tinyurl.com/dgglo
Quoted:
Witt repeated his criticism Sunday that the reorganization that put
FEMA under the Department of Homeland Security had hurt the agency's
ability to deal with natural disasters. He said a lot of resources also
had been depleted by the war in Iraq.

I voted for these guys the first time out, but the whole tenure has
been characterized by a lack of foresight, and planning. Unfortunately
lot's of times people have brought possible problems they could face in
issues, and if it didn't fit their plan they seem to have ignored them
until they blew up in their face. I have never voted Democrat for
President, my family is deeply involved with Republican politics here
in Ma. but there's just no way in hell I can defend this
administration. I spent a long time trying to do it, but what we were
promised, and what we actually got aren't even close. I still prefer
them to Kerry, but that's a whole lot more of a reflection of what I
think of Kerry and his abilities.
I actually get very litle of my news from the idiot box, but over the
weekend it's made some good background noise. Worse I'm a complete
information junkie I'll read just about anything that's still legible
and I have always made it a point to get several contrasting points of
view on any issue I bothered to look at. In this case IMO the majority
of the problem has to be fixed at the federal level, before we have a
replay somewhere else with the next major hurricane or quake. They have
to cover the whole country, and be prepared for areas that don't handle
things perfectly, or even well. They are the last resort, with the
ability to call on the most resources, so they need to plan for an
immediate response to a worst case scenario of anything they can see
coming, then if they don't need it good. It's one of the military
adages I really believe in "Plan for the worst, Hope for the best, and
pray for peace" The other version is from Neitzche and goes "Plan for
the worst, Hope for the best, and expect nothing, you'll never be
disappointed" Both are rules I've tried to put into practice.
Bill C
 
Gooserider wrote:
> "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > IMKen wrote:
> >> "Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:%[email protected]...
> >> >
> >> > "IMKen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[email protected]...
> >> >> I'm sure or at least hoping that things get organized soon and that
> >> >> help
> >> >> is available tomorrow for those poor folks. I hope that the ade will
> >> >> alleviate the looting situation. Most of it I am certain is strictly
> >> >> do
> >> >> to survival. People have to eat and will do what is necessary to
> >> >> survive. Glad I am not there or I would be taking what i needed for
> >> >> survival right along with the others. That would be a tiny part of
> >> >> balancing out the racial appearance.
> >> >>
> >> >> Bless them all.
> >> >
> >> > Bless them all? Even the murderers and rapists? You seem to forget
> >> > about
> >> > the gangs of armed thugs shooting people and beating people to death in
> >> > the Superdome. How about the ones who tried to break into Children's
> >> > Hospital? There were a lot worse things going on there than looting.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yeah, I come and go on my feelings about the folks I see on the TV. I
> >> have
> >> no compassion for those bums that are healthy and capable of working for
> >> a
> >> living as well as being capable of helping themselves through a disaster.
> >> A
> >> disaster they could have avoided by following the order to evacuate.
> >> They
> >> are in that squalor because of their disrespect for the order to leave.
> >> By
> >> staying they have cost this country billions in saving their asses and
> >> now
> >> paying for their keep. Next they and their leaders in DC and the NAACP
> >> will
> >> be seeking Compensation for their self inflicted suffering.
> >>
> >> It was a failing of the local governments not to issue a Shoot to Kill
> >> order
> >> for looting or violence on the day the storm struck or for that matter,
> >> the
> >> day before it struck.

> > Not in his legal authority to be able to do so. Good thing too. Think
> > about the OJ riots and Gates LAPD with shoot to kill orders.
> > Bill C

>
> There were OJ riots? I remember Rodney King riots, but not OJ.

You're right. My mistake. Thanks.
Bill C
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On 5 Sep 2005 08:56:48 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'm also trying to find an article I saw last night which made it
> >clear that the Mayor had zero legal authority to declare martial law,
> >it had to come from the Governor.

>
> It doesn't require martial law to put all public buses on the road to
> the pick up sites. That did not happen, not by a long shot. He flat
> out screwed up and had no real plans in place, other than to say,
> "Leave the city." He had pick up sites and not enough pick up.
>
> So plan B is keep saying the state and federal governments screwed up.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

Good BBC piece here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4216508.stm
Bill C
 
"Neil Brooks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> D. Ferguson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>If you're white it's "finding" stuff.
>>But if you're black....... LOOTER!!!!
>>
>>http://photos23.flickr.com/38725768_16c66eb58b.jpg

>
> Racial issues aside, I'm just glad that those who wanted weapons,
> apparently, had no trouble getting them.
>
> Thanks, Wal-Mart, for your part in this.


Yes, because the bolt action rifles and shotguns the gangsters stole were
the only armaments they had. Geez. We're dealing with urban gang members.
Those guys had guns way before they hit the Wal Mart, and they probably had
illegal full auto weapons.
 
Gooserider wrote:
> "Neil Brooks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>D. Ferguson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If you're white it's "finding" stuff.
>>>But if you're black....... LOOTER!!!!
>>>
>>>http://photos23.flickr.com/38725768_16c66eb58b.jpg

>>
>>Racial issues aside, I'm just glad that those who wanted weapons,
>>apparently, had no trouble getting them.
>>
>>Thanks, Wal-Mart, for your part in this.

>
>
> Yes, because the bolt action rifles and shotguns the gangsters stole were
> the only armaments they had. Geez. We're dealing with urban gang members.
> Those guys had guns way before they hit the Wal Mart, and they probably had
> illegal full auto weapons.
>
>
 

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