Manolo Saiz arrested

[bobke]

more names ine liste:

Joseba Beloki (Liberty)
Haimar Zubeldia (Euskaltel)
Joaquin Rodriguez (epargne-illes cash Register Balears)
Julian Sanchez (Comunidad Valenciana)
Carlos Castaño (Kaiku).
Angel Vicioso (Liberty Seguros)
Santiago Botero (Phonak)
Oscar Sevilla (T-mobiles)
Iban Mayo (Euskaltel)
José Antonio Escuredo - dopage athens 2004.
José Enrique Gutiérrez (Phonak)

cine shows cyclie riders going to doctos whith bike with no front wheele. this ist riders do ride tests afters tranfusions. listes uses "word key". use nicknames and false names to riders to bloode bags. guard take time to works all names out. liste is longer. mores names.

http://www.interviu.es/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=39&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=33566&idseccio_PK=547&h=

If you had asked me to name ten riders I thouht were doping, this would have been the list more or less. No surprises here at all.
But very very bad for the sport.
These are the top professionals, but what I like is that no T-Mobile except Sevilla and the rest are the usual Euskatel and Phonak Spanish suspects.
Again, too bad but ultimatey good to get them out of the sport.

I just have to ask though, how does this affect Floyd, and I mean in every sense of the word.

 

[FrenchFanNoDope]

Mores namess on dopaje liste:

Ángel Casero (ullrich team coaste)
Roberto Heras
Aitor González

more names ine liste:

Joseba Beloki (Liberty)
Haimar Zubeldia (Euskaltel)
Joaquin Rodriguez (epargne-illes cash Register Balears)
Julian Sanchez (Comunidad Valenciana)
Carlos Castaño (Kaiku).
Angel Vicioso (Liberty Seguros)
Santiago Botero (Phonak)
Oscar Sevilla (T-mobiles)
Iban Mayo (Euskaltel)
José Antonio Escuredo - dopage athens 2004.
José Enrique Gutiérrez (Phonak)

cine shows cyclie riders going to doctos whith bike with no front wheele. this ist riders do ride tests afters tranfusions. listes uses "word key". use nicknames and false names to riders to bloode bags. guard take time to works all names out. liste is longer. mores names.

http://www.interviu.es/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=39&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=33566&idseccio_PK=547&h=

 

[davidbod]

The precedence has been set with the Armstrong case. If it’s not a regulation dope control then you don't get suspended. Any rider investigated by the UCI will use this as there defense. You cannot prove “z” used EPO just because “z” visited a doctor at 3am in the morning who was found to have 200 bags of blood hanging from his wall. It’s not enough and the rider’s lawyers will be smart enough to use Armstrong v WADA/UCI/The World as their defense.

Virenque and Patani only went down because criminal law caught up with them not the laws of the sporting bodies. Spain doesn’t have the criminal laws in relation to doping that Italy and France have.

This really isn't an apples to apples comparison. In the Armstrong case you have samples collected and stored under WADA protocols where the press circumvented the protocols to attempt to match a sample with a document acuired under false pretense.

In the current case none of the WADA protocols apply as they were not part of a WADA Anti Doping process.

I see some major problems with the UCI or WADA making anything of this though. Even if they could prove that a rider was directly involved in this operation the main sticking point is going to be proving that the rider actually transfused altered blood. All a rider has to do is say the blood was for performance testing purposes, meaning the blood was analyzed but never re injected back into the body.

 

[Dead Star]

Castano's name would make sense, in light of his rather good Catalunya :O

 

[davidbod]

Well I bet Hamilton was appart of this as well and they screwed up and gave him the other riders blood on Phonak that failed the marker tests. I wish they had film of him so there could be no lingering doubt.

 

[FrenchFanNoDope]

Castano's name would make sense, in light of his rather good Catalunya :O

yes! mores names liste? yes! with codename for key:

'el Bufalo'' - Jose Enrique Gutierrez (phonaks)
'Zapatero' - Michele Scarponi (libertys)
'Uno' - Unai Osa (illes)
José Antonio Escuredo

http://www.eurosport-it.com/ciclismo/giro-d-italia/2006/sport_sto895192.shtml

 

[whiteboytrash]

I see some major problems with the UCI or WADA making anything of this though. Even if they could prove that a rider was directly involved in this operation the main sticking point is going to be proving that the rider actually transfused altered blood. All a rider has to do is say the blood was for performance testing purposes, meaning the blood was analyzed but never re injected back into the body.

Agree with this. Also from what I'm reading the blood was delivered to the races and the rider would re-inject themselves. The doctors claim the blood was for analyses like you say and that they didn't re-transfuse the blood which is also true. The rider denies they re-transfused and since you cannot detect a transfusion of your own blood nobody will be none the wiser ! No one gets charged. (Looks like Hamilton got the wrong blood bag and or Perez and his got mixed up in transit.)

 

[Ullefan]

Frenchfannodope is bobke talking to himself. Or is that hombredesubaru?

 

[musette]

Don't worry, people. Regardless of who frenchfan... may be, I am me!!

"Now following reports in the Spanish press that Sevilla was filmed by a concealed camera entering Fuentes clinic, the team has again been in contact with the Spaniard "I have also spoken to Oscar about the latest reports. The doctor he worked with had a clinic in the same building as Fuentes," says Ludwig."

Above from TM website.

Come on, Sevilla's explanation is that he worked with a non-Fuentes doctor who had a clinic in the same building as Fuentes! But even TM's own statement indicates that Sevilla was filmed "entering the Fuentes clinic."

cyclingnews gives more info on who Sevilla was claiming he was visiting, and sheds more light than the TM website, which, although not stating it explicitly, almost suggests that Sevilla was visiting a doctor independent of Fuentes who just happened to be in the same building.

"Interviú reported that the Civil Guard was investigating Sevilla, T-Mobile told El Pais, "[Sevilla] has told us that it was possible that he appeared in the photographs taken by the Civil Guard at the door of the laboratory of Zurbano, 92." Sevilla admitted to receiving training programs from Ignacio Labarta, an associate of Dr Fuentes who was also arrested last week, but claimed that he had nothing to do with Fuentes. "If it turns out that he lied to us, Sevilla will have a problem."

In fact, Sevilla admitted to visiting Ignacio Labarta, Fuentes associate!!! He's just saying he didn't visit Fuentes himself.

 

[limerickman]

TMO stated that they intend to investigate this matter, as it is TMO's policy to fire riders found to have used performance enhancing drugs.

USPS/DC failed to address the doping issue within their camp 1999-2005.

 

[DiabloScott]

TMO stated that they intend to investigate this matter, as it is TMO's policy to fire riders found to have used performance enhancing drugs.

Is this a written policy and is this what it says? Is your own blood a drug?

 

[bobke]

TMO stated that they intend to investigate this matter, as it is TMO's policy to fire riders found to have used performance enhancing drugs.

USPS/DC failed to address the doping issue within their camp 1999-2005.

You're off topic Moderator. The topic here is Saiz and the doping issue is Spain.

Sevilla can say what he wants, any one else ever wonder why he could stay with the front group on Alpe d'Huez in 2001 and never again? He has been an almost winner of Vuelta and then faded to a so-so domestique. It is a problem for T-Mobile since it indirectly implicates the team.

As for Postal, they always immediately got rid off riders with issues such as Mondini. And they have a zero tolerance policy but we are not gonna settle this one.

Lets focus on whats at hand. JMLeblanc has already come out and saif teams may be excluded from this years tour so Floyd it seems is the biggest rider in triuble since like half his Tour team has been rumoured as in the video--Botero Gutierrez etc etc

 

[limerickman]

Is this a written policy and is this what it says? Is your own blood a drug?

TMO have a written policy prohibiting doping in all rider contracts.

They have also requested additional written assurance see here

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2006/05/30/ciclismo/1149008386.html

 

[musette]

JMLeblanc has already come out and saif teams may be excluded from this years tour so Floyd it seems is the biggest rider in triuble since like half his Tour team has been rumoured as in the video--Botero Gutierrez etc etc

Plus Phonak has the history of the T Hamilton and related problems on top of current problems. But wouldn't the biggest rider in possible trouble be Vino, if LS is banned from the Tour?!

I'm confident that Chechu, Noval and Beltran are not going to have Fuentes problems!

As for TM, it is being intentionally misleading on its website when it says the following, if the doctor that Sevilla visited was a Fuentes associate who was also arrested, which I understand to be the case:

"Oscar confirmed to me by phone that he hasn’t had any contact with Fuentes," says Ludwig.... "I have also spoken to Oscar about the latest reports. The doctor he worked with had a clinic in the same building as Fuentes," says Ludwig."

TM is focusing on Fuentes the person, as opposed to Fuentes and his associates as a group of people who participated in this.

 

[wolfix]

I thought it was obvious from the beginning with the TH and his teammate having someones else's blood..... It made me think back to the 1984 LA Games and the blood doping issue.....
At the time of the TH disclosure I was thinking the blood boys are back into it again....But somebody screwed up....

 

[wolfix]

I'm not so sure that just because a rider gets caught doping that the team is behind it in all cases.
In the Saiz situation though you have to wonder about certain teams being totally involved.
But the silence of the ones not caught when they have to know about it, tells me this run deep. Instead of speaking out about it , they remain silent. Why?
I have a feeling that this years TDF we are going to see very cleaned up race. The teams will fear the worst. They know the spotlight is on all of them. We will see more of the big names dropping out when it gets tough.

 

[bobke]

I'm not so sure that just because a rider gets caught doping that the team is behind it in all cases.
In the Saiz situation though you have to wonder about certain teams being totally involved.
But the silence of the ones not caught when they have to know about it, tells me this run deep. Instead of speaking out about it , they remain silent. Why?
I have a feeling that this years TDF we are going to see very cleaned up race. The teams will fear the worst. They know the spotlight is on all of them. We will see more of the big names dropping out when it gets tough.

Phonak issues statement

The Phonak team has reacted to further allegations arising from Operation Puerto with a statement regarding its riders whose names have come up in connection with the alleged doping practices of former Kelme team doctor Eufemiano Fuentes.

"The Phonak Cycling Team acknowledges the appearance in the Spanish media of the names of certain team members in connection with Dr Fuentes," the team said. "The team management takes these reports seriously, although it has not yet been possible to establish the truth of the allegations. The team management is examining the issue internally. Following this, further information will be communicated."

 

[davidbod]

That the TDF director is going to let the teams know by the July start wouldn't be that reassuring to me if I were Vino or Floyd. The pace at which things are going there will be no time to switch to another team. This could be a very sad TDF this year as "innocent" riders could be caught up in the affairs of their teams.

Even if they can't prove guilt in the form of a legal guilt as the evidence is going to be mostly circumstantial (unless they turn some screws on the delivery men or something), the sponsors, at least LS, seem to not need to see much more to turn away.

 

[musette]

Phonak's contract to sponsor ends at the end of 2006, even without a Phonak scandal. i-shares, when it signed on to be a current sponsor, received an option to become the main sponsor from 2007. This could affect i-share's willingness to take on the task, if a lot of Phonak riders are involved.

If Phonak is barred from the Tour, but Landis is not implicated, he could go back to DC. He would need a DS who understood him, as there would not be time to get acclimated on another team's DS, support team, support riders, bikes, etc. Landis would only be co-leader with Popo and Hincapie, but being in a famliar environment may outweigh this problem of not knowing the new team for Landis. On DC, Ace would be happy to be back in a domestique role and Savo won't have much to say about not being co-leader, given his disappointing Giro performance. They could exclude Padrnos or Gusev from the team, and put Landis in.

 

[barnstorm]

Wow, just caught up on all 19 pages of this thread. This is big and it's ugly, and I am really sad about it... and really happy about it. It shows again, just how gross and pervasive the doping problem is in cycling and sport. I am having to vomit through Barry Bonds and his oversized head hitting more home runs than Babe Ruth here and wondering why I am supposed to care. Anyway, bring them down, bring them all down.

So far, no surprises on who has been mentioned here. The sport is very incestuous as many posters have pointed out.... this rider was on a team, where that doctor was alleged to, where that rider who was busted used to ride, where the DS was a rider, where the soigner slept with the mechanic.... So everyone is guilty by association but way too many riders are cheating.

And, my biggest complaint, the teams get off scot free. Phonak clearly had everything to do with the Tyler/Santi Perez affair yet were not punished a bit. Liberty must have had something to do with Heras and Nozal before him cheating but until now, they got off scot free. I still don't totally know how to interpret the USPS/Equipe/retro EPO test/1999/Armstrong deal but if the independent report says it happened the team should be punished.

It is too late and too tough for the cycling bodies to punish the riders with out of competition evidence like this and the rules the way they are I guess (WBT seems to be laying this out most clearly), but the teams need to get hammered on this. The riders are taking all of the blame when the teams must be organizing the system behind the cheating. This is the most direct evidence of that fact we have seen since Festina.

I am not defending the riders who cheated by any means. I am saying that a cheating team has to have greater risk than being forced to fire their rider when they test positive. The pathetic statements about how they support their rider and believe them but cannot tolerate doping... blah... what we saw in the Heras incident and the Tyler one too.

The only team who seems to have a truly respectable approach to this is Tmo. And you can see the examples of people who have done well before and after their time at Tmo on teams with major clouds of suspicion or real evidence. Oscar, great at Kelme and Phonak, Tmo, not so much. Botero was a really good example.. Kelme - great, Tmo - awful, Phonak - great again. Bottom line is that they look a heck of a lot like a clean team and I have to respect the way they seem to police themselves. Sevilla will be fired within the week.