Manolo Saiz arrested



limerickman said:
OK : Jhuskey intimated that Phonak were due to cease sponsorship some time back - so it has come to pass.
And no doubt you're correct, the team want to be seen as whiter than white given it's new sponsor and given it's past..
Reported on German EuroSport today.... http://www.eurosport.de/radsport/protour/2005-2006/sport_sto895948.shtml

Along with an interview with Kloden (to which I'm going to read now):
http://www.eurosport.de/radsport/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto897300.shtml
 
cyclingheroes said:
The normally very well informed Belgian website www.wieleruitslagen.be reports that Saiz found a new sponsor.


The name of the sponsor is Astana, the capital of Kazachstan. They will sponsor the team for 3 years with an option for 6 years. This year the team will race with a Spanish license.

http://www.wieleruitslagen.be/nieuws/nieuws.php?subaction=showfull&id=1149280015&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&

Vino's a personal friend of the President of Kazakhstan.
 
Powerful Pete said:
Any news on whether they will be allowed to race in the Tour?

Unless the UCI takes away their ProTour license, the team will be there... or at least will be allowed to come... who knows what might actually happen before then.
 
limerickman said:
OK : Jhuskey intimated that Phonak were due to cease sponsorship some time back - so it has come to pass.
And no doubt you're correct, the team want to be seen as whiter than white given it's new sponsor and given it's past.

It's a pity that this same attitude wasn't adopted by Cofidis, Festina etc in the past.
I think you guys have this wrong. It is so easy for the team to suspend/fire riders like this when they are caught doping. It seems unimaginable that the team didn't know about the doping. I find it hard to believe the team wasn't behind the doping. So all they have to do is fire the rider, they get credit for being tough on dopers, then they recruit another batch of riders to dope up. Phonak is already on round two or three. Tyler/Perez, now Botero/Guti... wasn't there another rider or two of lesser note as well. How can a team accidentally end up with a ton of dopers? Give me a freaking break. The teams have to be guilty too. If riders are riding for teams that dope them, then the problem is with the teams first.

If the teams would quit doping their riders and commit to a clean sport, then the riders would have no place to go. Teams should be monitoring their own riders through tests and examinations. Any rider making an improbable leap in fitness would be more closely examined. If the teams had a life and death responsibility in this, then the riders would have to quit doping. The riders are getting away with it because the teams are supporting them. Cycling is not too easy on the riders, cycling is too easy on the teams. Be hard on the teams and the teams will be hard on the riders.

Showing up to a start line jacked up without the race organizers knowing is easy. Showing up to a start line jacked up with nobody on your team knowing is very difficult. These guys spend every second together.
 
We should remember that Festina's (the company not the team) best year in terms of revenue generated form sponsership was 1998... they even had enough profit left over to donate €500,000 to the doping cause of ASO and still do.

The other Phonak man you are thinking of is Oscar Camenzind.... won a world championship got busted for EPO then turned himself in.... couldn't be bothered with the fight.... he was 34.....

barnstorm said:
I think you guys have this wrong. It is so easy for the team to suspend/fire riders like this when they are caught doping. It seems unimaginable that the team didn't know about the doping. I find it hard to believe the team wasn't behind the doping. So all they have to do is fire the rider, they get credit for being tough on dopers, then they recruit another batch of riders to dope up. Phonak is already on round two or three. Tyler/Perez, now Botero/Guti... wasn't there another rider or two of lesser note as well. How can a team accidentally end up with a ton of dopers? Give me a freaking break. The teams have to be guilty too. If riders are riding for teams that dope them, then the problem is with the teams first.

If the teams would quit doping their riders and commit to a clean sport, then the riders would have no place to go. Teams should be monitoring their own riders through tests and examinations. Any rider making an improbable leap in fitness would be more closely examined. If the teams had a life and death responsibility in this, then the riders would have to quit doping. The riders are getting away with it because the teams are supporting them. Cycling is not too easy on the riders, cycling is too easy on the teams. Be hard on the teams and the teams will be hard on the riders.

Showing up to a start line jacked up without the race organizers knowing is easy. Showing up to a start line jacked up with nobody on your team knowing is very difficult. These guys spend every second together.
 
barnstorm said:
So all they have to do is fire the rider, they get credit for being tough on dopers, then they recruit another batch of riders to dope up. Phonak is already on round two or three. Tyler/Perez, now Botero/Guti... wasn't there another rider or two of lesser note as well. How can a team accidentally end up with a ton of dopers? Give me a freaking break. The teams have to be guilty too. If riders are riding for teams that dope them, then the problem is with the teams first.

I hear the point that you're making - it is certainly food for thought.


barnstorm said:
If the teams would quit doping their riders and commit to a clean sport, then the riders would have no place to go. Teams should be monitoring their own riders through tests and examinations. Any rider making an improbable leap in fitness would be more closely examined. If the teams had a life and death responsibility in this, then the riders would have to quit doping. The riders are getting away with it because the teams are supporting them. Cycling is not too easy on the riders, cycling is too easy on the teams. Be hard on the teams and the teams will be hard on the riders.

I agree totally.
but some teams have taken a stand - Mapei walked away, FDJ are very strict too.
The backers of Gewiss walked away when Ferrari came to their attention.
 
limerickman said:
I hear the point that you're making - it is certainly food for thought.




I agree totally.
but some teams have taken a stand - Mapei walked away, FDJ are very strict too.
The backers of Gewiss walked away when Ferrari came to their attention.
It is good that some teams have taken a stand and by all appearances, the boys sponsored by the company that provides my cell phone service takes their team's health and image seriously. Tmo LOOK like the kind of team I am talking about. Ullrich got busted for ecstasy and they threw him out... hardly performance enhancing in cycling. I have heard it enhances performance in other situations but I haven't tried it myself so cannot vouch for that.

Seriously, I think if the team license agreements had provisions for review of team schedules, medical staff, medical records on a regular basis, and any team screwing up or having a rider screw up at all got a massive investigation and was forced to participate by licensing contract, then the teams would have to keep their riders clean. Then the cheating riders could really be treated like the pariah's they would be. In the current system, I have a hard time holding the riders accountable.
 
limerickman said:
Thanks for that, CH.

And a very interesting post it is.

It looks like certain teams have adopted what I would feel is the correct strategy in cases of doping allegations : if there is an accusation and if that accusation is specific, then the team should take corrective action along the lines which Phonak have done or like what TMO did by getting their riders to sign indemnities.

I am heartened to see that Phonak didn't just issue the usual "we deny all charges......." statement.

Yes Phonak has sidelined Botero and Gutierrez until the matter is cleared up. Even though Oscar Sevilla has been videoed entering the Fuentes office building TMO has simply had him sign a piece of paper and he's good to go. Sounds to me like TMO is just turning a blind eye.
 
Well it sure looks like I missed alot. Ive been in Houston all week with no internet access and very limited TV. I did see CBS news do a piece on LA Wed. night but I couldnt hear it because I was in a bar but I figured something big must of happened if they were covering LA.
Anyone want to fill me in on the latest? I dont feel like reading through all the posts. What riders have been caught in the gauntlet?
 
davidbod said:
Yes Phonak has sidelined Botero and Gutierrez until the matter is cleared up. Even though Oscar Sevilla has been videoed entering the Fuentes office building TMO has simply had him sign a piece of paper and he's good to go. Sounds to me like TMO is just turning a blind eye.
How is getting all your riders to sign on the dotted line that they've "never had contact with Fuentes" turning a blind eye? Name another team who's public response to this case has been crystal clear, and echoes their stance against doping? I haven't heard any other team respond in this manner, nor have I heard any other rider admit that they could have been one of the ones photographed entering the building. If Sevilla wasn't at t-mobile i'm not sure he would have publicaly admitted. That said, you have to have your doubts about Sevilla who did so well at Kelme and who's doctor at that team was Fuentes. But if he signs on the dotted line, he knows the implications if he were to be proven to have lied, there's nothing much else at this stage that t-mobile can do nor should do, given that Sevilla should(or could ) be going to the tour.
 
barnstorm said:
I think you guys have this wrong. It is so easy for the team to suspend/fire riders like this when they are caught doping. It seems unimaginable that the team didn't know about the doping. I find it hard to believe the team wasn't behind the doping. So all they have to do is fire the rider, they get credit for being tough on dopers, then they recruit another batch of riders to dope up. Phonak is already on round two or three. Tyler/Perez, now Botero/Guti... wasn't there another rider or two of lesser note as well. How can a team accidentally end up with a ton of dopers? Give me a freaking break. The teams have to be guilty too. If riders are riding for teams that dope them, then the problem is with the teams first.

If the teams would quit doping their riders and commit to a clean sport, then the riders would have no place to go. Teams should be monitoring their own riders through tests and examinations. Any rider making an improbable leap in fitness would be more closely examined. If the teams had a life and death responsibility in this, then the riders would have to quit doping. The riders are getting away with it because the teams are supporting them. Cycling is not too easy on the riders, cycling is too easy on the teams. Be hard on the teams and the teams will be hard on the riders.

Showing up to a start line jacked up without the race organizers knowing is easy. Showing up to a start line jacked up with nobody on your team knowing is very difficult. These guys spend every second together.

You are probably right that the teams are behind doping - but only in some cases.

YOu don't think a rider who has signed for a team where doping is not matter of course might still want to achieve better results - both for ego and to be able to negotiate more lucrative contracts?

Its not like there is not a huge reward for doing it if you don't get caught. I'm sure some (maybe many) riders just resign themselves to having to do it during their careers if they want to play on the same field as the other dopers.
 
In an interview with sportwereld.be Lefevere (DS Quickstep an chairman of the AIGCP) says that this is a bomb under the peloton.

It's an intresting interview since it shows very clear the dopple standards he has (and he is not the only one in cycling). He says Saiz had to let his team stop racing during the investigation. On the other hand he says he will stand behind Museeuw (working as an advisor for Boonen) untill the trial is over (what he doesn't say is that Musseuw is already suspended as a rider and DS by the Belgian cycling federation - the reason why Museeuw is not a DS at Quickstep but an "advisor" of Boonen).

He says the AIGCP asked Saiz to resign from his job at the AIGCP but that they won't accuse Saiz untill everything is proven. Than he goes on with saying, well if i am in a bar and there is a police raid where the police arrest a cocaine dealer, i only would be at the wrong place at the wrong time but people will always remember that i was at the bar during the raid.

But he goes even further: if i go to a bar and Dr. Ferrari offers me a coffee, should i refuse that coffee? It might be enough if i can believe Saiz.

He also said that Quickstep negociated with a third sponsor, but the sponsor wasn't intrested anymore because of the Saiz case. There where also some big sponsors (as he says at "Formula one" level) for the UCI and the grand tours but those plans where also postponed because of the Saiz case.



By the way he also says he won't garanty for anything anymore even not for Boonen (remember in an interview with a Belgian newspaper).

The full interview in Dutch at:
http://www.sportwereld.be/Article/Detail.aspx?articleID=G40T3HTB

To be fair with him i also have to say that he mentioned some new anti-doping methods they could start - but to be honest: anti-doping fight by a DS that found a legal way to let Museeuw work for his team altough he is suspended? I find it pretty hard to believe that Lefevere i a good partner in the fight against doping. I have a feeling he just won't understand that it has to be over.
 
Has anybody focused on the fact that the non-Fuentes doctor Sevilla was visiting when he was videotaped was one of Fuentes' associates?! The TM website is hypocritical, and I hope the statement they made riders sign states that they have not worked with Fuentes or his associates, and not just Fuentes himself. ;)

And why is SEvilla riding the Dauphine Libere?
 
musette said:
Has anybody focused on the fact that the non-Fuentes doctor Sevilla was visiting when he was videotaped was one of Fuentes' associates?! The TM website is hypocritical, and I hope the statement they made riders sign states that they have not worked with Fuentes or his associates, and not just Fuentes himself. ;)

And why is SEvilla riding the Dauphine Libere?
I believe the statement they made their riders sign is more of an insurance policy than anything. Until the investigation is complete, no action would be taken. They simply can't suspend a rider based on suspicion alone.

The daphine along with the swiss are two of the most popular tune-up races for the tour.
 
Ullefan said:
How is getting all your riders to sign on the dotted line that they've "never had contact with Fuentes" turning a blind eye? Name another team who's public response to this case has been crystal clear, and echoes their stance against doping? I haven't heard any other team respond in this manner, nor have I heard any other rider admit that they could have been one of the ones photographed entering the building. If Sevilla wasn't at t-mobile i'm not sure he would have publicaly admitted. That said, you have to have your doubts about Sevilla who did so well at Kelme and who's doctor at that team was Fuentes. But if he signs on the dotted line, he knows the implications if he were to be proven to have lied, there's nothing much else at this stage that t-mobile can do nor should do, given that Sevilla should(or could ) be going to the tour.

All the riders no doubt have clauses in their contracts that allow for immediate dismissal if caught as a doper. So my point is that simply having them sign a worthless piece of paper (worthless because it is redundant to what is already in their contracts) is just media show. And the why is as you state they want him on the TDF team. They could go as far as immediately side lining him like Phonak.

I still think we are on a slippery slope on this though, as its all based on leaks to the media and there may not be enough time to make a definitive decision prior to the tour. It would be a travesty to see someone sit out the tour only to find they are innocent. They may not have a choice though as I've seen in one report where Sevilla may be banned from the tour by the organizers anyway.
 
davidbod said:
All the riders no doubt have clauses in their contracts that allow for immediate dismissal if caught as a doper. So my point is that simply having them sign a worthless piece of paper (worthless because it is redundant to what is already in their contracts) is just media show. And the why is as you state they want him on the TDF team. They could go as far as immediately side lining him like Phonak.

I still think we are on a slippery slope on this though, as its all based on leaks to the media and there may not be enough time to make a definitive decision prior to the tour. It would be a travesty to see someone sit out the tour only to find they are innocent. They may not have a choice though as I've seen in one report where Sevilla may be banned from the tour by the organizers anyway.
You're right, it would be a travesty. If there is any inclination to ban teams taking riders who are under suspicion, Sevilla won't be going to the tour. Having said that, they'd have to forbid Vino and all the other spanish teams implicated in this investigation first and foremost, and I think they'd like Vino for the tour(the organisers).

I don't know if its policy or media show or both. I do know they have a responsibility to their sponsors, that includes phonak who are changing sponsors, that may have been the catalyst, but given all that has happened in that team its hardly suprising they've sidelined them.
 
"Et si Phonak a pris l'initiative de retirer le Colombien Botero pour "calmer le jeu", T-Mobile alignera bien Sevilla, également mis en cause dans l'affaire "Puerto". "Ce n'est pas une question de courage mais on préfère travailler dans la tranquillité car on a des ambitions ici avec d'autres coureurs, glissait John Lelangue, le manager de l'équipe helvète. Chacun fait comme il veut, on attend désormais des nouvelles de l'UCI"."

Article on Dauphine Libere official website.

Rough translation: If Phonak took the initiative of not having Botero [on the Libere team] to "calm matters", TM is bringing Sevilla, equally called into question [?? I think that's what it means] in the Puerto affair. "It isn't a question of courage [to bring potentially implicated cyclists], but we prefer to work under more calm/tranquil conditions because we have ambitions here with other cyclists," John Lelangue said. "Each [team] can do what it wants as we await news from the UCI."
 
Good to see Unia Osa finishing 38 seconds off the the pace in today prologue after being named in the Spanish doping affair... nice riding... ! The new Liberty uniforms are a little bland... I guess they haven't had anytime to make new ones up jso they ust placed a white blob over the Liberty logo......
 

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