Manolo Saiz arrested

[musette]

from CNN:The police are also looking at alleged links between Fuentes -- who is now practising as a gynaecologist -- and Tour of Italy leader Ivan Basso, who rides for the CSC team.

Interesting. If Basso were to hypothetically win and get DQ'd, even if Simoni got onto the podium and pushed Savo off to 4th, Savo would eventually get back in 3d. Wishful thinking? I'm not saying Basso doped, but I'm saying that this increases the stakes for people to go and challenge Basso. If, after the Giro, Basso were to get DQ'd, the 2nd place finisher would end up with the Giro eventually.

 

[bobke]

Interesting. If Basso were to hypothetically win and get DQ'd, even if Simoni got onto the podium and pushed Savo off to 4th, Savo would eventually get back in 3d. Wishful thinking? I'm not saying Basso doped, but I'm saying that this increases the stakes for people to go and challenge Basso. If, fater the Giro, Basso were to get DQ'd, the 2nd place finisher would end up with the Giro eventually.

Not if a train crosses in front of them!

 

[musette]

Not if a train crosses in front of them!

They could still win if a train crossed in front of them, they were initially DQ'd themselves, and they successfully challenged that the people who got second instead had also crossed the train tracks when the barrier was down.

No, seriously, this is going to incentivize Gut and Gibo even more to try and finish second.

 

[nitrous]

A sad day for cycling..... It throws a cloud over the innocent as well as guilty. There are no winners in a case like this.

Absolutely - and that is the saddest thing. With a web as intricate as this there are few who can escape scrutiny or doubt, even if they are innocent. Poor Basso (if he is clean). In fact, poor ANY RIDER who is in great form and smashing his rivals, because until this stops, the sport of cycling is getting knocked by all and sundry and a champion will always have a cloud of doubt hanging over his reputation.

Vino? Where does this leave him? He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't now. Who would believe him if he performed well in July and said he was clean. As much as I love watching him, and think he is a great agressive rider I find it hard to believe that 1000 vials of anabolic steroid were found on his team officials and none of them were intended for his thighs!

This stinks and makes me sick! What can we do to rid our sport of doping once and for all?

 

[discobean7]

Fuentes employed as a gynecologist? He must be involved in genetically engineering the next generation of super-human cyclists. You know what they say in Spain..."you're not doping unless you can classify your blood as a solid"

 

[wolfix]

I just read that 200 bags of blood has been found....... And a rider with Liberty has withdrawn from the Giro...... Sad times.
The bad thing is it throws a dark cloud over all riders. 200 bags was not just for one rider..... What about Vino???? We saw him in the TDF have a few very good days and then he had several bad days..... It brings up suspicion about him even if he is clean.
What is the connection between the arrested doctor and Basso? If they worked together, how long ago?
Is there a real solution to this? I am afraid more arrests will just destroy the sport in the publics eye. And if I wanted to really deal with reality, I know that drugs have been the major component of cycling since long ago. I'm starting to think that maybe there is no such thing as a clean TDF rider.

 

[patch70]

I just read that 200 bags of blood has been found....... And a rider with Liberty has withdrawn from the Giro...... Sad times.
The bad thing is it throws a dark cloud over all riders. 200 bags was not just for one rider..... What about Vino???? We saw him in the TDF have a few very good days and then he had several bad days..... It brings up suspicion about him even if he is clean.

I am more suspicious of the rider that does not have a bad day.

Either way, this is a bummer for the Tour. I'd have liked to have seeen Vino going solely for himself and a tight race between him, Basso, Ullrich, Menchov, Landis, Leipheimer, Evans, Mancebo etc. Plus (as an Aussie) I watch with interest the progress of Alby Davis. It'd suck if these two plus Contador, Sanchez & the rest of the LS boys get excluded.

 

[musette]

Scarponi was the Liberty rider who abandoned the Giro. He was their intended team leader.

If there were so many bags of blood, there must have been some labeling (if not with cyclist names, then with some sort of ID system that is linked to names). Otherwise, there would have been an unacceptable risk of inadvertently giving the wrong blood to a cyclist.

Liberty Seguros/ONCE has had a number of testing problems beyond Heras. Remember when Nozal had to stop racing for a while because his tests were above the limit?

And there is another connection to Riis. Tyler Hamilton was a Riis cyclist just before he went to Phonak and had his testing problems.

 

[bobke]

Scarponi was the Liberty rider who abandoned the Giro. He was their intended team leader.

If there were so many bags of blood, there must have been some labeling (if not with cyclist names, then with some sort of ID system that is linked to names). Otherwise, there would have been an unacceptable risk of inadvertently giving the wrong blood to a cyclist.

Liberty Seguros/ONCE has had a number of testing problems beyond Heras. Remember when Nozal had to stop racing for a while because his tests were above the limit?

And there is another connection to Riis. Tyler Hamilton was a Riis cyclist just before he went to Phonak and had his testing problems.

remember when Nozal won a grand tour and was never heard of again?
like Cunego?
back before certain newer better tests came out?

 

[limerickman]

If what I am being told is true - I think we have another Festina type scandal at hand here.

 

[musette]

Do you think it goes beyond Liberty Seguros' current riders (and Heras)?

 

[wolfix]

If what I am being told is true - I think we have another Festina type scandal at hand here.

I think you are right. The lines from one to another are too direct. And I would have a hard time believing that this is a new developement in Saiz's career.... I don't think a DS would start a doping program at this stage of a solid career...
What I find interesting is that the civil police were behind this..... I am about to agree with you Lim that cycling is one big cover-up. No one wants to deal with the truth.
There has been many suggestions as to doping with some of the past TDF guys.... The guys in the 80's.... And Indurain in the 90's.
But with JU.. I have never heard anything ..... I don't really count the doping suspension of his as a PED thing. Maybe that is why JU has not had the career he should have had. Maybe he is clean.
[ Even though I would have a real hard believing that a German team would not be at the front of the PED situation after the teams the East Germans produced in all sports in the past........]

 

[limerickman]

I think you are right. The lines from one to another are too direct. And I would have a hard time believing that this is a new developement in Saiz's career.... I don't think a DS would start a doping program at this stage of a solid career...
What I find interesting is that the civil police were behind this..... I am about to agree with you Lim that cycling is one big cover-up. No one wants to deal with the truth.
There has been many suggestions as to doping with some of the past TDF guys.... The guys in the 80's.... And Indurain in the 90's.
But with JU.. I have never heard anything ..... I don't really count the doping suspension of his as a PED thing. Maybe that is why JU has not had the career he should have had. Maybe he is clean.
[ Even though I would have a real hard believing that a German team would not be at the front of the PED situation after the teams the East Germans produced in all sports in the past........]

Wolf,

Even though you and I may disagree from time to time, I think that we're agreed on this topic of doping.

This sport of ours has failed to tackle this issue throughout it's duration.
I'm not talking 1998 - I'm talking since day one.

The UCI have made pronouncements about doing this - doing that etc.
They have done nothing!

This problem has dogged this sport for years.
Never again was the cry in 1967, when Tom Simpson died.
Never again was the cry when Michel Pollentier was caught at the TDF in 78.
Never again was the cry when Delgado was caught in 1988.
Never again was the cry in 1998 when Festina broke.

Cheating is endemic in this sport.
And it's been only through the actions of the civil authorities that cycling's dirty underbelly has been exposed.

Few are failing dope tests by the UCI. Fewer still have been caught trafficking by the UCI.

The introduction of WADA was opposed by the UCI.

I am off the belief that this sport can manage itself. It is unwilling to try to eradicate doping. Self regulation hasn't worked.

I welcome the intervention of the civil authorities.
They're doing the job which the sport itself is incapable and unwilling to do.

 

[davidbod]

I just saw on the Giro live update ticker that some Spanish newspaper 'El Pais' reported that 200 blood bags destined for **** or auto transfusions were seized in the raids surrounding the arrests. That is big. Its sad to see this, it could ruin this years TDF.

 

[wolfix]

Wolf,

Even though you and I may disagree from time to time, I think that we're agreed on this topic of doping.

This sport of ours has failed to tackle this issue throughout it's duration.
I'm not talking 1998 - I'm talking since day one.

The UCI have made pronouncements about doing this - doing that etc.
They have done nothing!

This problem has dogged this sport for years.
Never again was the cry in 1967, when Tom Simpson died.
Never again was the cry when Michel Pollentier was caught at the TDF in 78.
Never again was the cry when Delgado was caught in 1988.
Never again was the cry in 1998 when Festina broke.

Cheating is endemic in this sport.
And it's been only through the actions of the civil authorities that cycling's dirty underbelly has been exposed.

Few are failing dope tests by the UCI. Fewer still have been caught trafficking by the UCI.

The introduction of WADA was opposed by the UCI.

I am off the belief that this sport can manage itself. It is unwilling to try to eradicate doping. Self regulation hasn't worked.

I welcome the intervention of the civil authorities.
They're doing the job which the sport itself is incapable and unwilling to do.

I am starting to feel as if the actual race organizers are as guilty as anyone.....
For example ..... We had the Festina scandal, but what came along about then.... We had LA , a guy that captured the imagination of the world with the cancer story. And opened a huge American market. He was the annointed prince among the organizers of the TDF...... They loved him and could control most everything along the way....... But something happened.... LA didn't go away. The TDF started to get boring after his 5th win as it did with Indurain. Then LA became a liability instead of an asset to the TDF..... And the attacks began in earnest.

The race organizers do not want WADA near them. They lose control. It's bad business for their race if a TDF tests positive......
When we see the quantities that Festina , Saiz's deal and that thing a few years ago at the Italian border with that guys wife..... And then we have the thing happening in Belgium with [size=-1]Johan Museeuw[/size]. These are not small doses. It is not just an experiment for the rider that is caught.
And with the admitted doping practices of retired riders from the past..... "A rider cannot get along with just mineral water alone"..........

 

[azdroptop]

If doping is being ignored here and there in the sport they should just stop testing all together and let these guys destroy themselves for fame and glory. Years ago when I was heavy into bodybuilding they officially drug tested the Mr. Olympia. It was the worst Olympia to date. The guys looked soft, bloated and for the most part out of shape. Needlesstosay the next year there was no testing and the show was good again. Cycling may have the same problem. If these guys weren't doping would the racing be as good?

 

[tcklyde]

Wolf,

Even though you and I may disagree from time to time, I think that we're agreed on this topic of doping.

This sport of ours has failed to tackle this issue throughout it's duration.
I'm not talking 1998 - I'm talking since day one.

The UCI have made pronouncements about doing this - doing that etc.
They have done nothing!

This problem has dogged this sport for years.
Never again was the cry in 1967, when Tom Simpson died.
Never again was the cry when Michel Pollentier was caught at the TDF in 78.
Never again was the cry when Delgado was caught in 1988.
Never again was the cry in 1998 when Festina broke.

Cheating is endemic in this sport.
And it's been only through the actions of the civil authorities that cycling's dirty underbelly has been exposed.

...

I welcome the intervention of the civil authorities.
They're doing the job which the sport itself is incapable and unwilling to do.

I couldn't agree more.

It is absolutely imperative that the UCI and the national federations (although France has taken this somewhat more seriously) need to immediately make stopping doping a priority. And it is clear that they haven't, that they have resisted efforts to clean up the sport, and the job has fallen to the police.

It is not acceptable to have a major doping controversy every eight years.

As others have pointed out, doping has not gone away since 1999. In fact, we've seen several prominent riders caught in the last couple of years. And now we have the DS of a major ProTour team in jail -- casting suspicion over many big players in the peloton.

I'm sad to learn this but hardly surprised.

So bring the police in. Arrest the managers, the doctors, and the dopers. They've had their chance, fifty times over, to police themselves. If they won't be serious, then they bring this on themselves.

 

[tcklyde]

Cyclingnews:

As reported by Efe, in an apartment belonging to Fuentes, approximately a thousand doses of anabolic steroids and hormones were seized, along with one hundred packets of blood, products to manipulate it, machines to freeze it and material to perform transfusions.

My goodness. Absolutely staggering. Steriods, hormones, blood transfusions.

 

[Dead Star]

And they all tried to ridicule Manzano after he confessed all grrrrrr.

 

[micron]

Saiz was implicated in the Festina scandal - the ONCE squad withdrew from the 98 TdF - at the hearings it was made quite clear that ONCE were involved in systematic doping. But to say that Festina and ONCE were the only squads involved in those practices would be laughable...

As someone said on this thread earlier - it's the ones that don't have a bad day that should arouse your suspicion.

Let's hope this is the scandal that finally makes the sport get serious about cleaning up.