Marathoning as a bad career move?



I just went through interview rounds as part of the internship process
at the Univ of Michigan Business School (now Ross School of Business). I
definitely have my marathoning under "other interests.
Some recruiters know nothing about running. They seem to not even notice it.
Other times it leads to a decent conversation...either they run or have a
marathoner in the family and can identify with the committment/effort.
True, some might see it as making you a "lone wolf" or spending time
running and not at work. In my case, if taking an hour a day to run keeps me
from getting the job, I don't want it because I have no interest in a slave-
driving position.
More often, it sends a message that you are a hard-worker, not afraid of
challenges, plan ahead, set and acheive goals, and strive to be better than
you are.
Andy Hass
 
[email protected] wrote:
> I don't mention interests that have nothing to do with the job I'm
> applying for on my resume.


> Andy


--This can be a big mistake! I've talked to A LOT of recruiters who value the
seeing non-work items in "other interests" on the bottom of the resume. You
are someone they will have to work with every day, socialize with, etc. They
don't want a dead stick in the office, all else being equal.
Don't underestimate the importance of a business's culture.
Andy Hass
 
"Helix" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> anders wrote:
>
> > [snip] ... marathoning is increasingly popular in
> > Germany, big company bosses are doing it and marathoning has positive
> > connotations in the public mind and many job-seekers seem to assume
> > that their running interest (and achievement, even) would reflect

> well
> > on them.

>
> Yeah, but in the US, marathon training takes away from time you could
> spend watching Jerry Springer or American Idol, so what would you talk
> with your co-workers about?


Dumbasses on USENET?
>
 
"anders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Doug Freese wrote:


>> BTW you also have a street named after you in central Helsinki, a
>> stone´s throw or two from Paavo Nurmen tie:)


Not me. The real family name is Von Stein - just a touch on the German
side. My Grandfather during WWII could not get a job in the US for
obvious lastname reasons. As the family tale goes he opened the phone
book, pointed and then made the name change. It is also alleged that
the family tree includes Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Have I seen this
tree, no. Will I look, nope.


> FWIW the interviewer who made the quoted comment was described as a
> "recreational mountainbiker"...


Likely bikes without a helmet.;)


Anders
 
Hate to digress to a mundane, HR topic on this NG, but in the USA the
question would be inappropriate in an employment interview and to deny
an otherwise qualified person employment because of a hobby or lack
thereof could be grounds for legal action against the employer.
Unless a question is directly related to the job requirements and the
candidate's ability to meet them you can't ask it. In this specific
example, a person could be handicapped or have a heart problem or
something - you can't deny them the right to work because of that.
Unless you're hiring someone to write for Runner's World or work in an
athletic shoe store, questions about running are out of bounds to ask,
although the candidate can offer up anything they want if they think
it will help there cause. As for offering it up voluntarily, most
non-runners think we runners, particularly those of us who run
marathons, are nuts and most people don't want nuts working for them.
I wouldn't list it, although I confess that if I saw a finish line
photo on an interviewer's desk I might let it slip out that I'm into
the sport.

Wouldn't it be something if you listed it, and the hiring manager was
into marathoning, but they turned out to be one of those "you run
marathons for the wrong reasons" people that post here every now and
then? Talk about backfiring!


On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:51:06 GMT, "Doug Freese" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"rick++" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Most people I know are impressed.
>> Only about 0.5% to 1.0% of people
>> in the USA have completed a marathon.
>>
>> I dont why someone would list hobbies on a CV
>> or resume that aren't business related.

>
>Many resume templates pose this question in some form. I think it can be
>valuable in understanding the person you are interviewing. The more you
>know about that person the more likely you can tell how they will blend
>with their peers. Otherwise this suggests they are just hunks of
>impersonal meat.
>
>-DF
>
>
>
>
 
Goethe Quote for 4/6/2005

From inaccessible mountain range by way of desert untrod by human foot
to the ends of the unknown seas, the breath of the everlasting creative
spirit is felt, rejoicing over every speck of dust that hearkens to it
and lives.


Doug Freese <[email protected]> wrote:

> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
 
anders wrote:

> Dot wrote:
>
>
>>Hey, you didn't say what job you were applying for ;) I'm just

>
> pointing
>
>>out that depending on your job, outside interests can be an indicator

>
> of
>
>>how well you would adapt to it and how productive you would be.

>
>
> It wasn´t about me, honest:) (My next career move is probably going
> to be early retirement, assuming of course that the nags won´t let me
> down...)


That's exactly where I'm headed in the next few months :) :) (might have
a little slop over beyond June 30, depending on some things)

>
>
> It isn´t only in places like Alaska, though, that these factors weigh
> can tip the scales as the employer will obviously prefer someone whose
> family can be assumed to welcome - for instance, because the parents
> stem from the region and want to afford a bigger house or because the
> "husband is a keen skier who hates the winter in Helsinki"(1) - rather
> than sourly accept the relocation and, in typical European
> two-career/income families, whose spouse will be able to find a
> satisfying job rather than end up sulking and pining for the bright
> lights of the city they left behind.


Good points!

>
> (1) to the great disappointment of the husband in question this
> argument only got the applicant as far as "close, but no cigar",
> because it turned out another applicant came with serious grant
> money...


Ooops, that'll do it every time.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson
 
[email protected] wrote in message
<[email protected]>...
>In my view unless the person I was interviewing with indicated that
>they ran I wouldn't mention my marathoning past. The vast majority of
>the population don't have any concept of what training for a marathon
>consists of so they won't be impressed. One co-worker (who knows I run)
>thinks any physical event is a marathon, even if it involves no
>running.
>
>If the person interviewing me indicated that they ran I may make a
>point to mention that I'm a runner also. Just to make a personal
>connection.
>
>I don't mention interests that have nothing to do with the job I'm
>applying for on my resume.
>
>Andy


I'd agree with this approach, particuarly for ultrarunners, or adventure
racers. While a general mention of activities like running shows a healthy
approach to life, if someone comes off as obsessive about their training for
an exotic event it may be seen as ego-self-searching or something
undesirable because it presents a big unknown.

Writing down running as one of your activities is different from putting
"marathoning", or calling your self a marathoner - both of which to me imply
ego-obsessiveness. If you call yourself "an adventure racer", for example,
that implies it is your profession.

-Tony
 
reason number 476,532,876 sec B states
reason how to make money with out useing your own in reailty.
Y not jst say yor a F ing lier
anda crook.
46,532,875 states
minwage and I can run with your person and money.
with out paying you. and 10 times what you did means you owe me.

these people are every were here.
 
"argon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hate to digress to a mundane, HR topic on this NG, but in the USA the
> question would be inappropriate in an employment interview


Inappropriate how? It's not as if your asking about their favorite
sexual position during a nooner in the back seat of 57 Chevy.

> and to deny
> an otherwise qualified person employment because of a hobby or lack
> thereof could be grounds for legal action against the employer.


A strawman you just invented. OTOH, and you will not find it written
down, many employers are very pro employees taking care of themselves.
They provide gym, teams and the time to use them. They know that people
that take care of themselves miss less days and are happier campers
which means they are more productive. A fun yet realistic strawman,
legal or not - if I had narrowed a single job down to two candidates
and one was "unhealthy looking" and the other was into a healthy
lifestyle, I would sure as hell invest the company in the healthy
person.

> Unless a question is directly related to the job requirements and the
> candidate's ability to meet them you can't ask it.


You concluded this from where? The are some no-no questions like age
and religion but let's not extrapolate that to "what you do for fun
outside of work?"

> Wouldn't it be something if you listed it, and the hiring manager was
> into marathoning, but they turned out to be one of those "you run
> marathons for the wrong reasons" people that post here every now and
> then? Talk about backfiring!


You can conjure all the strawman's you want but the more you know about
the interviewee ( within obvious boundaries) the better the decision.
The interviewer is about to make a big investment. You about to hire
someone that cost you about $125,000 a year between salary, benefits,
perks etc and you hope to get 20 years. It's more than "have you
mastered regular expressions in a Unix script?"

-DougF
 
Ignoramus21451 wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 02:40:28 GMT, argon <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hate to digress to a mundane, HR topic on this NG, but in the USA

the
> > question would be inappropriate in an employment interview and to

deny
> > an otherwise qualified person employment because of a hobby or lack
> > thereof could be grounds for legal action against the employer.

>
> What makes you think so? Do you have a cite?
>

Um, because it's his profession? Let's face it, you really know nothing
about HR and legal business practices, do you?

> There are certain "protected classes" of persons, such that it is
> illegal to discriminate against a people belonging to a "protected
> class". Those would be a race group or a certain sex, for example.

But
> these protected classes are few and are enumerated by law. I do not
> believe that hobbies are included.


They are.

>
> Personally, at interviews, when I am an interviewee, I only talk

about
> my hobbies that are directly related to work (usenet software
> etc). When I interview candidates, I do not ask them about their
> hobbies, as my time is limited and I do not want to get distracted
> from evaluation of their professional skills. I do not care if they
> like biking, cooking, collecting guns or sailing.


Did anyone ask?
>
> I would rather ask them to write a short computer program without
> mistakes. For example, "write a function that effectively reverses a
> string". 90% of interviewees fail to do it correctly, believe it or
> not. Those who succeed in this or a similar test, invariably, turn

out
> to be very competent people.
>


Again, see above.

Martha
 
An employer doesnt have have to give a reason for not hiring you or
firing you in most of the USA. You could make a legal case if you
could show a specific action or pattern against a protected class.
Hobbies would fallow this too, unless you could prove the hobby
was fishing about protected areas like martial status.
 
They view you just the same as everyone else does..............with
disgust, laughter, and pity, all at the same time.
 
argon wrote:

> Hate to digress to a mundane, HR topic on this NG, but in the USA the
> question would be inappropriate in an employment interview and to deny
> an otherwise qualified person employment because of a hobby or lack
> thereof could be grounds for legal action against the employer.
> Unless a question is directly related to the job requirements and the
> candidate's ability to meet them you can't ask it.


But the candidate may provide the information, whether it's asked or
not. Depending on the position, it may not be a legitimate thing to
consider in the scoring. Where I am, we develop 3 sets of questions - 1
for each stage of screening - that have to be pre-approved by HR (Human
Resource for slowpokes like me that couldn't figure out how Heart Rate
got into this discussion ;) ) First 2 sets are used to screen the
written applications to select interviewees. The 3rd set of questions is
read during the interview. Each member of search committee scores each
answer and provides written justification. Total scores for all
questions across the search committee members, and highest score is top
candidate, etc. We also contact references. HR has to ok that all the
committee responses are reasonable and adequately justified in writing
(sentence or 2 - or more, if needed) before a recommendation is made to
the hiring authority. We have on occasion requested clarification or
permission to ask an additional question trying to sort out some issues,
where we weren't sure if it was something we were allowed to ask.

However, administrator with the hiring authority can and has overturned
the search committees recommendations (not sure what basis is used and
what type of hr approval they need) - and boy, have we suffered because
of some of those overturns.

Where I am and types position I've been involved with the search
committee, summer marathoning may work against you because of the
summer field work. Winter marathoning in Alaska would be ok (won't
interfere), but scouting or orienteering hobbies would be relevant job
skills and would be helpful to list on resume. I do agree with Doug that
active employees are generally healthier and hence more productive - a
directly relevant issue. The fact that they're likely to live longer
(assuming not eaten by a grizz) to be a productive employee is icing.
Some employers are more concerned about employees' health than others
(Doug's former employer apparently is, mine doesn't appear to be - at
least with actions - and is something we're fighting to change at the
moment).

But beyond the formal interview and resultant scores (at least for
faculty positions), there are many interactions that take place across
the 2-day interview among faculty, other employees, clients, general
public - none of which officially show up in the final scores but do go
to show how capable the person is to actually do the work and fit in
locally.

What's overlooked frequently is that the applicant is interviewing the
organization as well as the organization interviewing the applicant
looking for a fit. And the applicant isn't restricted in what they can
ask, and we can answer freely.

As an aside, the best interview I ever had was one where, among other
things, I had to identify a bunch of plant specimens and write a
proposal in response to an RFP. They were looking for solid evidence
that a person could do the work, not just a bunch of info on a resume.
(I was offered the job but took the one in Alaska.)

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"rick++" <[email protected]> wrote:



> I dont why someone would list hobbies on a CV
> or resume that aren't business related. Sometimes
> hobbies come up during a job interview.


At least in Finland it seems that a lot of candidates want to
give a 'comprehensive' view of themselves. For them this includes
non-work related itesm, such as hobbies.

My guess is that this is due to them seeing some other items that
are borderline and expanding from there. Borderline issues in my
book would be things such as leadership positions outside the office
for younger interviewees -- leaders of sports teams, officer ranking
in the military or positions in the student body.

Having interviewed a number of people for different positions I can
safely say that sports which are not injury prone are a plus in my
book, with brownie points for those that set clear goals in their
endeavours and achieve them. I find it a statement of character.

Peba