Mashing as efficient as circles?



"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phil Holman wrote:
>
>> There was a study a while back that showed significant
>> increases in gross efficiency although the study was criticized on a
>> technicality (its hypothesis statement or some such).

>
> Uh, no, that's exactly opposite. It wasn't being criticized on a
> technicality, it was being criticized on substantive grounds. It was
> being defended on a technicality.
>


I found Jim Martin's original critique.

"Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
<news:[email protected]>...
> If I recall correctly there were a three major concerns.


> 1) The study was not hypothesis driven. That is to say, the authors
> had no
> reason, based on existing scientific literature, to hypothesize that
> training with the power cranks would change efficiency. Cyclists may
> wish to
> think that pedaling biomechanics will be improved and that the change
> in
> biomechanics will improve efficiency. That is wishful thinking. No one
> has
> ever reported a link between pedaling technique and efficiency.
> Indeed,
> there is little to improve because almost no one produces substantial
> negative power during the flexion phase at pedaling rates of under
> 100rpm.



> 2) If they had tried to express a hypothesis it could only be centered
> on a
> notion that pulling up is inherently more metabolically efficient than
> pushing down: that muscle that flex the leg are more efficient than
> those
> that extend the leg. No one has ever reported such a difference and
> there is
> no reason to hypothesize one.



> 3) The procedures for calibrating the metabolic system were not well
> explained.



> In my opinion the most reasonable explanation for their findings is
> that
> something happened to their metabolic system between pre and post
> testing.



> Cheers,



> Jim



Phil H
 
On 23 Jul 2006 00:52:36 -0700, "Robert Chung" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Phil Holman wrote:
>
>> There was a study a while back that showed significant
>> increases in gross efficiency although the study was criticized on a
>> technicality (its hypothesis statement or some such).

>
>Uh, no, that's exactly opposite. It wasn't being criticized on a
>technicality, it was being criticized on substantive grounds. It was
>being defended on a technicality.


Dear Robert,

There were several threads, some of them enormous, so can you give us
a brief summary or a link to what you have in mind?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 23 Jul 2006 00:52:36 -0700, "Robert Chung" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Phil Holman wrote:
>>
>>> There was a study a while back that showed significant
>>> increases in gross efficiency although the study was criticized on a
>>> technicality (its hypothesis statement or some such).

>>
>>Uh, no, that's exactly opposite. It wasn't being criticized on a
>>technicality, it was being criticized on substantive grounds. It was
>>being defended on a technicality.

>
> Dear Robert,
>
> There were several threads, some of them enormous, so can you give us
> a brief summary or a link to what you have in mind?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel


http://groups.google.com/group/rec....t&q=powercranks+study&rnum=1#d9cc1680a9768594

You'll have to click on the "show quoted text" but it was basically Jim
Martin's response. BTW, Racer X probably got an F in his statistics
class.

Phil H
 
Phil Holman wrote:
> I found Jim Martin's original critique.


[snip]

Yeah. Actually, I remember it, and the thread, pretty well. Frank was
defending it on the technical grounds that a difference in gross
efficiency was statistically significant beyond a 5% critical value. Jim
Martin was criticizing it on substantive grounds that no link between
gross efficiency and pulling up had ever been hypothesized prior to the
experiment.

BTW, my livelihood depends on how well I make or teach others to make
technical arguments so I wasn't saying that any argument based on a
technicality is necessarily flawed. I was simply pointing out that you had
your terminology switched.
 
Phil Holman wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....t&q=powercranks+study&rnum=1#d9cc1680a9768594
>
> You'll have to click on the "show quoted text" but it was basically Jim
> Martin's response. BTW, Racer X probably got an F in his statistics
> class.


It distresses me to say this, but he probably got pretty good grades. It
distresses me because the first thing I generally have to do in my classes
is un-teach all the bad stuff "A" students think they know.
 
"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phil Holman wrote:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec....t&q=powercranks+study&rnum=1#d9cc1680a9768594
>>
>> You'll have to click on the "show quoted text" but it was basically
>> Jim
>> Martin's response. BTW, Racer X probably got an F in his statistics
>> class.

>
> It distresses me to say this, but he probably got pretty good grades.
> It distresses me because the first thing I generally have to do in my
> classes is un-teach all the bad stuff "A" students think they know.


The meaning of statistically significant and the effect of sampe size no
doubt. I'm intrigued, what do you teach exactly?

Phil H