Mavic CrossMax SL freehub mystery problem



T

toolguy

Guest
Hi all,

I bought a new set of CrossMax SL wheels for my Santa Cruz last July.
They've had a few months worth of riding and then hung up for the
winter. I took the bike down a few weeks ago for it's first spring
ride and the rear wheel had seized. With a little effort (pedaling)
the wheel loosened up but I knew I had a bearing problem. I was set
for a ride so I did it anyway as it was a road ride in the mountains.
The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher speed (about
+50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that made me
think the wheel was going to explode. When this happened it felt like
I was hitting the brakes hard. I thought it was the bearing but if I
pedalled the noise and friction would stop. Scary.

I am a mechanic from my younger days but I have never pulled apart the
Mavic hub and didn't know the process or if I needed special tools.
So I took the wheel into my favorite mechanic. I told him the story
and together we pulled it apart. We inspected the freehub first.
Very simple really and it looked perfect. He lubed it a bit and we
moved on. We pulled out the left bearing (non-drive side) and it was
toast. Mavic used a one-sided sealed bearing and water had gotten
past it's defences. The bearing was full of **** and rust. He didn't
have the right size replacement so he rebuilt it as best as possible
and I wrote down the numbers and ordered a new one. The new one is a
double sided SKF. After that came in, I installed it. Everything
should be good now, right? Wrong!

On a ride on Saturday it was fine. On Sunday's ride it was screaming
it's death wale everytime I stopped pedalling! By the end of the ride
it was making this noise along with the associated friction at speed's
as low as 10 km/hr. I pulled the hub apart last night to have another
look at the freehub. I looks fine. There is nothing to indicate a
problem. The palls look like they may have some wear on the ends but
this may be my memory failing. I cleaned them and removed a little
grease as they seemed a little gummy. I put the whole unit back
together very confused as to what is causing this problem. I went for
a short test spin down the road afterwards and I have no noise up to
30 km/hr. I don't trust that the problem is fixed though. Any ideas
on what is causing this problem?

TIA,

Neil
 
S

S o r n i

Guest
toolguy wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I bought a new set of CrossMax SL wheels for my Santa Cruz last July.
> They've had a few months worth of riding and then hung up for the
> winter. I took the bike down a few weeks ago for it's first spring
> ride and the rear wheel had seized. With a little effort (pedaling)
> the wheel loosened up but I knew I had a bearing problem. I was set
> for a ride so I did it anyway as it was a road ride in the mountains.
> The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher speed (about
> +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that made me
> think the wheel was going to explode. When this happened it felt like
> I was hitting the brakes hard. I thought it was the bearing but if I
> pedalled the noise and friction would stop. Scary.
>
> I am a mechanic from my younger days but I have never pulled apart the
> Mavic hub and didn't know the process or if I needed special tools.
> So I took the wheel into my favorite mechanic. I told him the story
> and together we pulled it apart. We inspected the freehub first.
> Very simple really and it looked perfect. He lubed it a bit and we
> moved on. We pulled out the left bearing (non-drive side) and it was
> toast. Mavic used a one-sided sealed bearing and water had gotten
> past it's defences. The bearing was full of **** and rust. He didn't
> have the right size replacement so he rebuilt it as best as possible
> and I wrote down the numbers and ordered a new one. The new one is a
> double sided SKF. After that came in, I installed it. Everything
> should be good now, right? Wrong!
>
> On a ride on Saturday it was fine. On Sunday's ride it was screaming
> it's death wale everytime I stopped pedalling! By the end of the ride
> it was making this noise along with the associated friction at speed's
> as low as 10 km/hr. I pulled the hub apart last night to have another
> look at the freehub. I looks fine. There is nothing to indicate a
> problem. The palls look like they may have some wear on the ends but
> this may be my memory failing. I cleaned them and removed a little
> grease as they seemed a little gummy. I put the whole unit back
> together very confused as to what is causing this problem. I went for
> a short test spin down the road afterwards and I have no noise up to
> 30 km/hr. I don't trust that the problem is fixed though. Any ideas
> on what is causing this problem?


I had the exact same problem with my Crossmax XL rear wheel. The noise went
away after the shop "cleaned up" the hub a bit, but the
owner/salesman/mechanic says I'll need a new bearing. (I still get
"freewheeling", where the cranks keep turning when the wheel rotates fast;
AND the wheel moves backwards when I backpedal in the stand, too.)

I've been less than thrilled with these wheels. First I popped a rear spoke
(didn't break, so was able to pop it back in). Then I've had the bearing
problems -- drag first and then the death squeal. Finally, the FRONT hub
started seizing up a bit; then it basically came apart with no tools
involved (the plastic bearing adjuster is a pathetic joke). I got it back
together with my hands only, and a small point-punch to hold the adjusting
disc in place since the plastic tool disintegrated. Front seems OK now, but
could come apart again it seems...

The guy who sold 'em to me says I need to avoid water crossings (very rare
here in San Diego), but all my friends blast thru the few we encounter
seemingly with impunity. I'm glad he's willing to replace the bearing(s),
but wheels this expensive shouldn't be so delicate. (Not MOUNTAIN biking
wheels, anyway.)

Good news is, they're easy to service.

Bad news is, they're gonna need it!

Bill "not a Mavic (hubs at least) fan" S.
 
On 3 May 2004 07:03:24 -0700, [email protected] (toolguy) wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I bought a new set of CrossMax SL wheels for my Santa Cruz last July.
>They've had a few months worth of riding and then hung up for the
>winter. I took the bike down a few weeks ago for it's first spring
>ride and the rear wheel had seized. With a little effort (pedaling)
>the wheel loosened up but I knew I had a bearing problem. I was set
>for a ride so I did it anyway as it was a road ride in the mountains.
>The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher speed (about
>+50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that made me
>think the wheel was going to explode. When this happened it felt like
>I was hitting the brakes hard. I thought it was the bearing but if I
>pedalled the noise and friction would stop. Scary.
>
>I am a mechanic from my younger days but I have never pulled apart the
>Mavic hub and didn't know the process or if I needed special tools.
>So I took the wheel into my favorite mechanic. I told him the story
>and together we pulled it apart. We inspected the freehub first.
>Very simple really and it looked perfect. He lubed it a bit and we
>moved on. We pulled out the left bearing (non-drive side) and it was
>toast. Mavic used a one-sided sealed bearing and water had gotten
>past it's defences. The bearing was full of **** and rust. He didn't
>have the right size replacement so he rebuilt it as best as possible
>and I wrote down the numbers and ordered a new one. The new one is a
>double sided SKF. After that came in, I installed it. Everything
>should be good now, right? Wrong!
>
>On a ride on Saturday it was fine. On Sunday's ride it was screaming
>it's death wale everytime I stopped pedalling! By the end of the ride
>it was making this noise along with the associated friction at speed's
>as low as 10 km/hr. I pulled the hub apart last night to have another
>look at the freehub. I looks fine. There is nothing to indicate a
>problem. The palls look like they may have some wear on the ends but
>this may be my memory failing. I cleaned them and removed a little
>grease as they seemed a little gummy. I put the whole unit back
>together very confused as to what is causing this problem. I went for
>a short test spin down the road afterwards and I have no noise up to
>30 km/hr. I don't trust that the problem is fixed though. Any ideas
>on what is causing this problem?
>
>TIA,
>
>Neil


Dear Neil,

Could some of the rust and ground-off material from the bearing that
you replaced migrated elsewhere, beyond the parts that you cleaned?

Even a few flakes or chunks can make odd noises and then move on into
other nooks and crannies, making no noise on Saturday, lots of noise
Sunday, and then vanishing again when you take things apart and put
them back together.

Or it could be that Mr. Paul was appawled.

And please, I use "Death Whale" as my stage name now when I'm wailing
with my humpback-up chorus.

Moby-****
 
T

toolguy

Guest
> Dear Neil,
>
> Could some of the rust and ground-off material from the bearing that
> you replaced migrated elsewhere, beyond the parts that you cleaned?
>
> Even a few flakes or chunks can make odd noises and then move on into
> other nooks and crannies, making no noise on Saturday, lots of noise
> Sunday, and then vanishing again when you take things apart and put
> them back together.
>
> Or it could be that Mr. Paul was appawled.
>
> And please, I use "Death Whale" as my stage name now when I'm wailing
> with my humpback-up chorus.
>
> Moby-****



Dear ****,

Thanks for the ribbing on my typing. Deserved.

As for your comments on my hub.... I don't think it's possible that
rust or debri got into another area. The internal hub area isn't
accessible from the left bearing and the other bearings are double
sealed. As well, we cleaned out the cavity around the bad bearing
when we overhauled it. There wasn't anything to speak of. The rust
was noticable on the outside of the bearing but everything else was
internal.

Thanks,

Neil
 
T

toolguy

Guest
> I had the exact same problem with my Crossmax XL rear wheel. The noise went
> away after the shop "cleaned up" the hub a bit, but the
> owner/salesman/mechanic says I'll need a new bearing. (I still get
> "freewheeling", where the cranks keep turning when the wheel rotates fast;
> AND the wheel moves backwards when I backpedal in the stand, too.)


Hi Bill,

Thanks for your comments. I agree that any expensive wheel,
especially a mountain bike wheel, should be less fragile. Did the
problem ever return after the shop cleaned them up? Did they tell
anything specific that they did?

Thanks,

Neil
 
On 3 May 2004 15:32:38 -0700, [email protected] (toolguy) wrote:

>> Dear Neil,
>>
>> Could some of the rust and ground-off material from the bearing that
>> you replaced migrated elsewhere, beyond the parts that you cleaned?
>>
>> Even a few flakes or chunks can make odd noises and then move on into
>> other nooks and crannies, making no noise on Saturday, lots of noise
>> Sunday, and then vanishing again when you take things apart and put
>> them back together.
>>
>> Or it could be that Mr. Paul was appawled.
>>
>> And please, I use "Death Whale" as my stage name now when I'm wailing
>> with my humpback-up chorus.
>>
>> Moby-****

>
>
>Dear ****,
>
>Thanks for the ribbing on my typing. Deserved.
>
>As for your comments on my hub.... I don't think it's possible that
>rust or debri got into another area. The internal hub area isn't
>accessible from the left bearing and the other bearings are double
>sealed. As well, we cleaned out the cavity around the bad bearing
>when we overhauled it. There wasn't anything to speak of. The rust
>was noticable on the outside of the bearing but everything else was
>internal.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Neil


Dear Neil,

With luck, your hub noise will never return. But if it was a
come-and-go noise, something must have come-and-gone.

All that I can think of is:

a) Debris like rust (or spotty lubrication) moving around

b) Ever-so-slightly different re-assembly changing mating surfaces

If stable surfaces were shrieking because they were unlubricated or
were binding, the noise probably wouldn't come and go from day to day:

"Oh -- well, about a year ago -- I was chopping that tree -- minding
my own business -- when suddenly it started to rain....and right in
the middle of a chop, I...I rusted solid. And I've been that way ever
since."

http://www.un-official.com/The_Daily_Script/ms_wizoz.htm

Usually, squeaks don't improve unless something changes. The Tin Man
needed oiling.

Frank Baum
 
S

S o r n i

Guest
toolguy wrote:

> Thanks for your comments. I agree that any expensive wheel,
> especially a mountain bike wheel, should be less fragile. Did the
> problem ever return after the shop cleaned them up? Did they tell
> anything specific that they did?


Hi Neil,

No, the "noise from hell" problem hasn't returned (yet?), but like I said
there's still some drag and "roughage".

All the guy (Ron) did was open the hub with a 10-mm, swab it out with a
Q-tip, and add some grease. But he agreed that the bearing wasn't very
smooth, and recommended replacing (I assume under warranty, as it started
well under a year since purchase).

He also implied that I abused the wheels somehow -- that no one else had
EVER had a problem with them -- so you can bet I'm going to show him your
original post (and my initial reply). I even started road biking last
summer, so the wheels get a lot less use than they would by a "full time"
mountain biker.

Keep us posted on what happens with your SL's!

Bill "thanks to others for /bearing/ with us" S.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
toolguy wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I bought a new set of CrossMax SL wheels for my Santa Cruz last July.
> They've had a few months worth of riding and then hung up for the
> winter. I took the bike down a few weeks ago for it's first spring
> ride and the rear wheel had seized. With a little effort (pedaling)
> the wheel loosened up but I knew I had a bearing problem. I was set
> for a ride so I did it anyway as it was a road ride in the mountains.
> The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher speed (about
> +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that made me
> think the wheel was going to explode. -snip-

We pulled out the left bearing (non-drive side) and it was
> toast.-snip-

On Sunday's ride it was screaming
> it's death wale


You mention service to the left bearing. Open the right ones?
Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
S

S o r n i

Guest
A Muzi wrote:
> toolguy wrote:


>> The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher speed (about
>> +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that made me
>> think the wheel was going to explode. -snip-


> Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.


Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies! Sort of a mid-pitched vibratory
squeal that makes you think your rear end is about to disintegrate. Shakes
the frame a bit, even.

Bill "keeps others at arm's length, at least" S.
 
S

S o r n i

Guest
S o r n i wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>> toolguy wrote:

>
>>> The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher speed (about
>>> +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that made me
>>> think the wheel was going to explode. -snip-

>
>> Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.

>
> Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies!


And, I just got your whale of a material joke.

Bill "whoosh" S.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
>>toolguy wrote:
>>>The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher speed (about
>>>+50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that made me
>>>think the wheel was going to explode. -snip-


> A Muzi wrote:
>>Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.


S o r n i wrote:
> Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies! Sort of a mid-pitched vibratory
> squeal that makes you think your rear end is about to disintegrate. Shakes
> the frame a bit, even.



Well- wale, wail, whale, whatever.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
T

toolguy

Guest
> Hi Neil,
>
> No, the "noise from hell" problem hasn't returned (yet?), but like I said
> there's still some drag and "roughage".
>
> All the guy (Ron) did was open the hub with a 10-mm, swab it out with a
> Q-tip, and add some grease. But he agreed that the bearing wasn't very
> smooth, and recommended replacing (I assume under warranty, as it started
> well under a year since purchase).
>
> He also implied that I abused the wheels somehow -- that no one else had
> EVER had a problem with them -- so you can bet I'm going to show him your
> original post (and my initial reply). I even started road biking last
> summer, so the wheels get a lot less use than they would by a "full time"
> mountain biker.
>
> Keep us posted on what happens with your SL's!
>
> Bill "thanks to others for /bearing/ with us" S.


Hi Bill,

Thanks for your comments. I'll post a new thread if it the situation
comes back or I solve it somehow.

Neil
 
T

toolguy

Guest
>
> Dear Neil,
>
> With luck, your hub noise will never return. But if it was a
> come-and-go noise, something must have come-and-gone.
>
> All that I can think of is:
>
> a) Debris like rust (or spotty lubrication) moving around
>
> b) Ever-so-slightly different re-assembly changing mating surfaces
>
> If stable surfaces were shrieking because they were unlubricated or
> were binding, the noise probably wouldn't come and go from day to day:
>
> "Oh -- well, about a year ago -- I was chopping that tree -- minding
> my own business -- when suddenly it started to rain....and right in
> the middle of a chop, I...I rusted solid. And I've been that way ever
> since."
>
> http://www.un-official.com/The_Daily_Script/ms_wizoz.htm
>
> Usually, squeaks don't improve unless something changes. The Tin Man
> needed oiling.
>
> Frank Baum


Hi Frank,

Thanks for your comments. You may be right. I'll pay close attention
to the details.

Neil
 
T

toolguy

Guest
> > Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.
>
> Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies! Sort of a mid-pitched vibratory
> squeal that makes you think your rear end is about to disintegrate. Shakes
> the frame a bit, even.
>
> Bill "keeps others at arm's length, at least" S.


Bill is not kidding. This noise is definitely disturbing and unsettling.

Neil
 
On 4 May 2004 15:43:43 -0700, [email protected] (toolguy) wrote:

>> > Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.

>>
>> Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies! Sort of a mid-pitched vibratory
>> squeal that makes you think your rear end is about to disintegrate. Shakes
>> the frame a bit, even.
>>
>> Bill "keeps others at arm's length, at least" S.

>
>Bill is not kidding. This noise is definitely disturbing and unsettling.
>
>Neil


Dear Bill and Neil,

Even worse, disturbing and unsettling noises like this can come from
ridiculously tiny sources. Several times every year, I get an early
Monday call from yet another medical office manager who has turned on
her computer and been greeted by an enormous noise--the usual
description is that it's "like an airplane taking off." It's not
really that bad, but I can almost always hear it in the background.

I go out and replace the power supply fan, whose spinning shaft is
imitating an angry cicada. The office managers never seem reassured
when I tell them that the noise means that the fan is alive and well
and doing its job--it's when they're silent and motionless that things
fry.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel
 
G

Greg

Guest
I've had/have the same problem with my CrossMax freehubs--yes the
plural is correct. The first time about a year ago when the hub was
about a year ago. Replaced freehub ($60 I think) and now a year later
the same problem. Screech and vibration/drag? when freewheeling fast (I
even pedaled downhill to avoid the noise, but it is hard to brake and
pedal at the same time on a fast fire road descent or windy single
track). I'm not sure about the drag, but it feels/sounds like the tire
is hitting the chaninstay, although the tire isn't hitting the
chainstays.

The second freehub started doing the same thing while an a week long
trip to Lake Tahoe, California/Nevada (fantastic technical cross
country riding BTW) last week.

With the help of a machine shop owner, we analyzed the problem on the
first freehub to be the wearing of the plastic bushings that are in use
when freewheeling. The other symptom is that the cassette body can be
rocked back on forth in the plane of the wheel, because of the bearing
play.

I don't think I've ever worn out a freehub before, certainly not in a
year. This is unacceptable in a $800 (or whatever the price is ) wheel
set. I haven't been to the shop yet to see what they'll do about this
(I found this group and discussion via a Google search). I bought the
wheelset new on eBay from someone who upgraded to disks--the wheels
were new--so warranty was uncertain on the original. I only weigh 160
and although I ride fast (downhill anyway) I don't do big drops.

On the plus side the ceramic sidewalls are holding up well, even with
some rock hits. And Shimano brake pad wear is very good. On the
negative side, both skewers lost their plastic handles--my local shop
got free (road style) replacements from the local Mavid rep.

Greg


In article <[email protected]>, toolguy
<[email protected]> wrote:

> then on the descents at higher speed (about
> +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that made me
> think the wheel was going to explode. When this happened it felt like
> I was hitting the brakes hard.