Mavic CrossMax SL freehub mystery problem



T

Toolguy

Guest
Hi all,

I bought a new set of CrossMax SL wheels for my Santa Cruz
last July. They've had a few months worth of riding and then
hung up for the winter. I took the bike down a few weeks ago
for it's first spring ride and the rear wheel had seized.
With a little effort (pedaling) the wheel loosened up but I
knew I had a bearing problem. I was set for a ride so I did
it anyway as it was a road ride in the mountains. The wheel
seemed OK but then on the descents at higher speed (about
+50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched death scream that
made me think the wheel was going to explode. When this
happened it felt like I was hitting the brakes hard. I
thought it was the bearing but if I pedalled the noise and
friction would stop. Scary.

I am a mechanic from my younger days but I have never pulled
apart the Mavic hub and didn't know the process or if I
needed special tools. So I took the wheel into my favorite
mechanic. I told him the story and together we pulled it
apart. We inspected the freehub first. Very simple really
and it looked perfect. He lubed it a bit and we moved on. We
pulled out the left bearing (non-drive side) and it was
toast. Mavic used a one-sided sealed bearing and water had
gotten past it's defences. The bearing was full of **** and
rust. He didn't have the right size replacement so he
rebuilt it as best as possible and I wrote down the numbers
and ordered a new one. The new one is a double sided SKF.
After that came in, I installed it. Everything should be
good now, right? Wrong!

On a ride on Saturday it was fine. On Sunday's ride it was
screaming it's death wale everytime I stopped pedalling! By
the end of the ride it was making this noise along with the
associated friction at speed's as low as 10 km/hr. I pulled
the hub apart last night to have another look at the
freehub. I looks fine. There is nothing to indicate a
problem. The palls look like they may have some wear on the
ends but this may be my memory failing. I cleaned them and
removed a little grease as they seemed a little gummy. I put
the whole unit back together very confused as to what is
causing this problem. I went for a short test spin down the
road afterwards and I have no noise up to 30 km/hr. I don't
trust that the problem is fixed though. Any ideas on what is
causing this problem?

TIA,

Neil
 
S

S O R N I

Guest
toolguy wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I bought a new set of CrossMax SL wheels for my Santa Cruz
> last July. They've had a few months worth of riding and
> then hung up for the winter. I took the bike down a few
> weeks ago for it's first spring ride and the rear wheel
> had seized. With a little effort (pedaling) the wheel
> loosened up but I knew I had a bearing problem. I was set
> for a ride so I did it anyway as it was a road ride in the
> mountains. The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at
> higher speed (about +50 km/hr) the hub made this high
> pitched death scream that made me think the wheel was
> going to explode. When this happened it felt like I was
> hitting the brakes hard. I thought it was the bearing but
> if I pedalled the noise and friction would stop. Scary.
>
> I am a mechanic from my younger days but I have never
> pulled apart the Mavic hub and didn't know the process
> or if I needed special tools. So I took the wheel into
> my favorite mechanic. I told him the story and together
> we pulled it apart. We inspected the freehub first. Very
> simple really and it looked perfect. He lubed it a bit
> and we moved on. We pulled out the left bearing (non-
> drive side) and it was toast. Mavic used a one-sided
> sealed bearing and water had gotten past it's defences.
> The bearing was full of **** and rust. He didn't have
> the right size replacement so he rebuilt it as best as
> possible and I wrote down the numbers and ordered a new
> one. The new one is a double sided SKF. After that came
> in, I installed it. Everything should be good now,
> right? Wrong!
>
> On a ride on Saturday it was fine. On Sunday's ride it was
> screaming it's death wale everytime I stopped pedalling!
> By the end of the ride it was making this noise along with
> the associated friction at speed's as low as 10 km/hr. I
> pulled the hub apart last night to have another look at
> the freehub. I looks fine. There is nothing to indicate a
> problem. The palls look like they may have some wear on
> the ends but this may be my memory failing. I cleaned them
> and removed a little grease as they seemed a little gummy.
> I put the whole unit back together very confused as to
> what is causing this problem. I went for a short test spin
> down the road afterwards and I have no noise up to 30
> km/hr. I don't trust that the problem is fixed though. Any
> ideas on what is causing this problem?

I had the exact same problem with my Crossmax XL rear wheel.
The noise went away after the shop "cleaned up" the hub a
bit, but the owner/salesman/mechanic says I'll need a new
bearing. (I still get "freewheeling", where the cranks keep
turning when the wheel rotates fast; AND the wheel moves
backwards when I backpedal in the stand, too.)

I've been less than thrilled with these wheels. First I
popped a rear spoke (didn't break, so was able to pop it
back in). Then I've had the bearing problems -- drag first
and then the death squeal. Finally, the FRONT hub started
seizing up a bit; then it basically came apart with no tools
involved (the plastic bearing adjuster is a pathetic joke).
I got it back together with my hands only, and a small point-
punch to hold the adjusting disc in place since the plastic
tool disintegrated. Front seems OK now, but could come apart
again it seems...

The guy who sold 'em to me says I need to avoid water
crossings (very rare here in San Diego), but all my friends
blast thru the few we encounter seemingly with impunity. I'm
glad he's willing to replace the bearing(s), but wheels this
expensive shouldn't be so delicate. (Not MOUNTAIN biking
wheels, anyway.)

Good news is, they're easy to service.

Bad news is, they're gonna need it!

Bill "not a Mavic (hubs at least) fan" S.
 
C

carlfogel

Guest
On 3 May 2004 07:03:24 -0700, [email protected] (toolguy) wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I bought a new set of CrossMax SL wheels for my Santa Cruz
>last July. They've had a few months worth of riding and
>then hung up for the winter. I took the bike down a few
>weeks ago for it's first spring ride and the rear wheel had
>seized. With a little effort (pedaling) the wheel loosened
>up but I knew I had a bearing problem. I was set for a ride
>so I did it anyway as it was a road ride in the mountains.
>The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher
>speed (about +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched
>death scream that made me think the wheel was going to
>explode. When this happened it felt like I was hitting the
>brakes hard. I thought it was the bearing but if I pedalled
>the noise and friction would stop. Scary.
>
>I am a mechanic from my younger days but I have never
>pulled apart the Mavic hub and didn't know the process or
>if I needed special tools. So I took the wheel into my
>favorite mechanic. I told him the story and together we
>pulled it apart. We inspected the freehub first. Very
>simple really and it looked perfect. He lubed it a bit and
>we moved on. We pulled out the left bearing (non-drive
>side) and it was toast. Mavic used a one-sided sealed
>bearing and water had gotten past it's defences. The
>bearing was full of **** and rust. He didn't have the right
>size replacement so he rebuilt it as best as possible and I
>wrote down the numbers and ordered a new one. The new one
>is a double sided SKF. After that came in, I installed it.
>Everything should be good now, right? Wrong!
>
>On a ride on Saturday it was fine. On Sunday's ride it was
>screaming it's death wale everytime I stopped pedalling! By
>the end of the ride it was making this noise along with the
>associated friction at speed's as low as 10 km/hr. I pulled
>the hub apart last night to have another look at the
>freehub. I looks fine. There is nothing to indicate a
>problem. The palls look like they may have some wear on the
>ends but this may be my memory failing. I cleaned them and
>removed a little grease as they seemed a little gummy. I
>put the whole unit back together very confused as to what
>is causing this problem. I went for a short test spin down
>the road afterwards and I have no noise up to 30 km/hr. I
>don't trust that the problem is fixed though. Any ideas on
>what is causing this problem?
>
>TIA,
>
>Neil

Dear Neil,

Could some of the rust and ground-off material from the
bearing that you replaced migrated elsewhere, beyond the
parts that you cleaned?

Even a few flakes or chunks can make odd noises and then
move on into other nooks and crannies, making no noise on
Saturday, lots of noise Sunday, and then vanishing again
when you take things apart and put them back together.

Or it could be that Mr. Paul was appawled.

And please, I use "Death Whale" as my stage name now when
I'm wailing with my humpback-up chorus.

Moby-****
 
T

Toolguy

Guest
> Dear Neil,
>
> Could some of the rust and ground-off material from the
> bearing that you replaced migrated elsewhere, beyond the
> parts that you cleaned?
>
> Even a few flakes or chunks can make odd noises and then
> move on into other nooks and crannies, making no noise on
> Saturday, lots of noise Sunday, and then vanishing again
> when you take things apart and put them back together.
>
> Or it could be that Mr. Paul was appawled.
>
> And please, I use "Death Whale" as my stage name now when
> I'm wailing with my humpback-up chorus.
>
> Moby-****

Dear ****,

Thanks for the ribbing on my typing. Deserved.

As for your comments on my hub.... I don't think it's
possible that rust or debri got into another area. The
internal hub area isn't accessible from the left bearing and
the other bearings are double sealed. As well, we cleaned
out the cavity around the bad bearing when we overhauled it.
There wasn't anything to speak of. The rust was noticable on
the outside of the bearing but everything else was internal.

Thanks,

Neil
 
T

Toolguy

Guest
> I had the exact same problem with my Crossmax XL rear
> wheel. The noise went away after the shop "cleaned up" the
> hub a bit, but the owner/salesman/mechanic says I'll need
> a new bearing. (I still get "freewheeling", where the
> cranks keep turning when the wheel rotates fast; AND the
> wheel moves backwards when I backpedal in the stand, too.)

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your comments. I agree that any expensive wheel,
especially a mountain bike wheel, should be less fragile.
Did the problem ever return after the shop cleaned them up?
Did they tell anything specific that they did?

Thanks,

Neil
 
C

carlfogel

Guest
On 3 May 2004 15:32:38 -0700, [email protected] (toolguy) wrote:

>> Dear Neil,
>>
>> Could some of the rust and ground-off material from the
>> bearing that you replaced migrated elsewhere, beyond the
>> parts that you cleaned?
>>
>> Even a few flakes or chunks can make odd noises and then
>> move on into other nooks and crannies, making no noise on
>> Saturday, lots of noise Sunday, and then vanishing again
>> when you take things apart and put them back together.
>>
>> Or it could be that Mr. Paul was appawled.
>>
>> And please, I use "Death Whale" as my stage name now when
>> I'm wailing with my humpback-up chorus.
>>
>> Moby-****
>
>
>Dear ****,
>
>Thanks for the ribbing on my typing. Deserved.
>
>As for your comments on my hub.... I don't think it's
>possible that rust or debri got into another area. The
>internal hub area isn't accessible from the left bearing
>and the other bearings are double sealed. As well, we
>cleaned out the cavity around the bad bearing when we
>overhauled it. There wasn't anything to speak of. The rust
>was noticable on the outside of the bearing but everything
>else was internal.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Neil

Dear Neil,

With luck, your hub noise will never return. But if it was a
come-and-go noise, something must have come-and-gone.

All that I can think of is:

a) Debris like rust (or spotty lubrication) moving around

b) Ever-so-slightly different re-assembly changing
mating surfaces

If stable surfaces were shrieking because they were
unlubricated or were binding, the noise probably wouldn't
come and go from day to day:

"Oh -- well, about a year ago -- I was chopping that tree --
minding my own business -- when suddenly it started to
rain....and right in the middle of a chop, I...I rusted
solid. And I've been that way ever since."

http://www.un-official.com/The_Daily_Script/ms_wizoz.htm

Usually, squeaks don't improve unless something changes. The
Tin Man needed oiling.

Frank Baum
 
S

S O R N I

Guest
toolguy wrote:

> Thanks for your comments. I agree that any expensive
> wheel, especially a mountain bike wheel, should be less
> fragile. Did the problem ever return after the shop
> cleaned them up? Did they tell anything specific that
> they did?

Hi Neil,

No, the "noise from hell" problem hasn't returned (yet?),
but like I said there's still some drag and "roughage".

All the guy (Ron) did was open the hub with a 10-mm, swab it
out with a Q-tip, and add some grease. But he agreed that
the bearing wasn't very smooth, and recommended replacing (I
assume under warranty, as it started well under a year since
purchase).

He also implied that I abused the wheels somehow -- that no
one else had EVER had a problem with them -- so you can bet
I'm going to show him your original post (and my initial
reply). I even started road biking last summer, so the
wheels get a lot less use than they would by a "full time"
mountain biker.

Keep us posted on what happens with your SL's!

Bill "thanks to others for /bearing/ with us" S.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
toolguy wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I bought a new set of CrossMax SL wheels for my Santa Cruz
> last July. They've had a few months worth of riding and
> then hung up for the winter. I took the bike down a few
> weeks ago for it's first spring ride and the rear wheel
> had seized. With a little effort (pedaling) the wheel
> loosened up but I knew I had a bearing problem. I was set
> for a ride so I did it anyway as it was a road ride in the
> mountains. The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at
> higher speed (about +50 km/hr) the hub made this high
> pitched death scream that made me think the wheel was
> going to explode. -snip-
We pulled out the left bearing (non-drive side) and it was
> toast.-snip-
On Sunday's ride it was screaming
> it's death wale

You mention service to the left bearing. Open the right
ones? Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971
 
S

S O R N I

Guest
A Muzi wrote:
> toolguy wrote:

>> The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher
>> speed (about +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched
>> death scream that made me think the wheel was going to
>> explode. -snip-

> Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.

Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies! Sort of a mid-
pitched vibratory squeal that makes you think your rear end
is about to disintegrate. Shakes the frame a bit, even.

Bill "keeps others at arm's length, at least" S.
 
S

S O R N I

Guest
S o r n i wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>> toolguy wrote:
>
>>> The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher
>>> speed (about +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched
>>> death scream that made me think the wheel was going to
>>> explode. -snip-
>
>> Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.
>
> Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies!

And, I just got your whale of a material joke.

Bill "whoosh" S.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
>>toolguy wrote:
>>>The wheel seemed OK but then on the descents at higher
>>>speed (about +50 km/hr) the hub made this high pitched
>>>death scream that made me think the wheel was going to
>>>explode. -snip-

> A Muzi wrote:
>>Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.

S o r n i wrote:
> Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies! Sort of a
> mid-pitched vibratory squeal that makes you think your
> rear end is about to disintegrate. Shakes the frame a
> bit, even.

Well- wale, wail, whale, whatever.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971
 
T

Toolguy

Guest
> Hi Neil,
>
> No, the "noise from hell" problem hasn't returned (yet?),
> but like I said there's still some drag and "roughage".
>
> All the guy (Ron) did was open the hub with a 10-mm, swab
> it out with a Q-tip, and add some grease. But he agreed
> that the bearing wasn't very smooth, and recommended
> replacing (I assume under warranty, as it started well
> under a year since purchase).
>
> He also implied that I abused the wheels somehow -- that
> no one else had EVER had a problem with them -- so you can
> bet I'm going to show him your original post (and my
> initial reply). I even started road biking last summer, so
> the wheels get a lot less use than they would by a "full
> time" mountain biker.
>
> Keep us posted on what happens with your SL's!
>
> Bill "thanks to others for /bearing/ with us" S.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your comments. I'll post a new thread if it the
situation comes back or I solve it somehow.

Neil
 
T

Toolguy

Guest
> Dear Neil,
>
> With luck, your hub noise will never return. But if it was
> a come-and-go noise, something must have come-and-gone.
>
> All that I can think of is:
>
> a) Debris like rust (or spotty lubrication) moving around
>
> b) Ever-so-slightly different re-assembly changing mating
> surfaces
>
> If stable surfaces were shrieking because they were
> unlubricated or were binding, the noise probably wouldn't
> come and go from day to day:
>
> "Oh -- well, about a year ago -- I was chopping that tree
> -- minding my own business -- when suddenly it started to
> rain....and right in the middle of a chop, I...I rusted
> solid. And I've been that way ever since."
>
> http://www.un-official.com/The_Daily_Script/ms_wizoz.htm
>
> Usually, squeaks don't improve unless something changes.
> The Tin Man needed oiling.
>
> Frank Baum

Hi Frank,

Thanks for your comments. You may be right. I'll pay close
attention to the details.

Neil
 
T

Toolguy

Guest
> > Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.
>
> Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies! Sort of a
> mid-pitched vibratory squeal that makes you think your
> rear end is about to disintegrate. Shakes the frame a
> bit, even.
>
> Bill "keeps others at arm's length, at least" S.

Bill is not kidding. This noise is definitely disturbing and
unsettling.

Neil
 
C

carlfogel

Guest
On 4 May 2004 15:43:43 -0700, [email protected] (toolguy) wrote:

>> > Death wale? Perhaps a corduroy would be less loud.
>>
>> Believe me, this noise sucks big knobbies! Sort of a
>> mid-pitched vibratory squeal that makes you think your
>> rear end is about to disintegrate. Shakes the frame a
>> bit, even.
>>
>> Bill "keeps others at arm's length, at least" S.
>
>Bill is not kidding. This noise is definitely disturbing
>and unsettling.
>
>Neil

Dear Bill and Neil,

Even worse, disturbing and unsettling noises like this can
come from ridiculously tiny sources. Several times every
year, I get an early Monday call from yet another medical
office manager who has turned on her computer and been
greeted by an enormous noise--the usual description is that
it's "like an airplane taking off." It's not really that
bad, but I can almost always hear it in the background.

I go out and replace the power supply fan, whose spinning
shaft is imitating an angry cicada. The office managers
never seem reassured when I tell them that the noise means
that the fan is alive and well and doing its job--it's when
they're silent and motionless that things fry.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel
 

sardep

New Member
May 24, 2011
2
0
0
[SIZE= medium]Hi:[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]I thought I was the only one with this problem. Bought the Crossmax SL wheels last year (WheelWorld.com), around May, and the noise started on October, after approx. 100 miles of regular use.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= medium]The noise is really annoying and mysterious. It starts when the speed is up to 30 Km/h or more, it’s loud, lots of vibration. Feels like the rear wheel will disintegrate. Besides, it comes and goes without notice. With a help of a mechanic, I dismounted the rear hub and everything seemed to be in place No visible damages or malfunctions. I lubricated all pieces (freehubs, coils, bearings etc.), but the mysterious noise persists. Did you consider replacing the freehub for a new one? I was about to do that when I found that other lucky guys like me had the same problem ? Any suggestions ? Did you find a solution after all ?[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]Thanks.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= medium]Sardep [/SIZE]
 

hakazvaka

New Member
Jul 1, 2011
1
0
0
Hi,

I had the exact same problem (death squeak) as the OP... took it to the local shop, guy took the hub apart, cleaned it, sipped oil in it, and closed it :)

Works like a charm! Just now, I don't have a sound of freewheel at all :( that tik-tik-tik-tik sound that occurs when I don't spin pedals :D

Good luck!
 

tlacey

New Member
Dec 14, 2011
1
0
0
I have a set of Mavic Aksium wheels that I use for training. Recently I have had the same problem... screaming rear wheel when coasting downhill at 30+ mph. It makes the handlebars vibrate like crazy, too. A pro bike shop serviced the freehub, but the screaming continued the next time I rode on that wheel. Is this a wheel worth saving, or should I chuck this one and get another rear wheel to go with the Aksium front wheel?
 

vspa

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2009
2,203
76
0
i have Aksiums, yes they sound loud but function ok, i think your handlebars vibrated because of the asphalt, maybe the road wasn't that smooth or leveled ?
 

bsetbacken

New Member
Jan 3, 2012
1
0
0
I had the problem, and this forum helped me solve it. It is the inner axle rubbing on the freehub. When the outer plastic bushing wears, there is more play in the freehub, and eventually it contacts the driveshaft. (Sorry, not sure about terminology, hope this makes sense, I am new to this.) When coasting, the freehub moves fast compared to the driveshaft, and once it contacts, it grabs and slips, basically acting like a really bad drum brake, and causes a hell of a racket. It also drives the chain down onto the stay as another way to tell it is happening. Although I did order a new bushing, I fixed it today, without a new bushing, by doing the following.

I took it all apart, (see YouTube video) and polished the driveshaft in the very back part, farthest from the plastic bushing on the freehub, next to the spokes, with 1500 grit wet sand paper. Then I cleaned it really good. Then I took a buffing wheel, it's very fine brass, and polished the ID of the freehub. I used a piece of lint free wipe to make a cover for the bearing while I was doing this. Cut a circle with a hole in the center and place it over the bearing before polishing to keep any derbis from getting into the bearing. The polishing wheel I used was a Hakko B3052.

Once everything was smooth and clean, I used dripless oil on the moving parts, and used Molycoat on the surfaces that might come in contact with the freehub. Molycoat is a silicone based lubricant that has molybdenum in it, doesn't flow away when it gets hot.

Put it all back together and did about 15 miles today, with some major downhills, and no noise.

For reference, yesterday it would make the noise while doing an easy coast, I was almost not able to ride it.

Bike was bought in 2007, has about 3000 miles on it, never been serviced before. My local dealer was clueless, told me repair would cost about the same as a new wheel. Had no idea how to fix.

This whole project took about 20 minutes.

Thanks everyone for your input!