mavic d521 rim cracks?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Gerrit Van Wijk, Apr 12, 2003.

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  1. My bikeshop tells me Mavic d521 very strong long lasting rims, perfect for loaded touring and
    mountanibiking. But I found a review stating the ceramic chips of very easy and cracks form around
    the (single) eyelets. Does anybody have simular problems?
     
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  2. Tauras

    Tauras Guest

    I run the d-521 on my trail bike as a rear, has about 1600 miles of nasty rocky singletrack with no
    problems. They are on Hadley hubs with 2.0 SG SS spokes. The coating does wear off the rims I'm
    using Avid Vee's for brakes with XTR extreme pads. I hear the rim is not best for disc breaks due to
    the eyelets issue. More torque through single eyelets not ideal due to disc forces on the wheel.
    Otherwise very strong thick rim, its heavy but its a downhill rim. If you want a great rim for disc
    brakes get the Atomic "Trail Pimps"

    Tauras http://www.kcbx.net/~tsulaiti/surfreport/

    "gerrit van wijk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > My bikeshop tells me Mavic d521 very strong long lasting rims, perfect for loaded touring and
    > mountanibiking. But I found a review stating the ceramic chips of very easy and cracks
    form
    > around the (single) eyelets. Does anybody have simular problems?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

    -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1
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  3. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    Minor cracks radiating around the eyelet are usually just the anodizing and are present when new.
    They can be disregarded.

    Mavic used to have some extrusion problems which caused circumferential cracks around the rim, often
    starting at spoke holes, but I think Mavic pretty much have that under control these days.

    Regarding the ceramic braking surface, sure, it can chip, but ceramic II is better than their
    original, and unless you lose a /lot/ of the coating, it makes no practical difference to use.

    Jim

    gerrit van wijk wrote:
    > My bikeshop tells me Mavic d521 very strong long lasting rims, perfect for loaded touring and
    > mountanibiking. But I found a review stating the ceramic chips of very easy and cracks form around
    > the (single) eyelets. Does anybody have simular problems?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
  4. I can kind of agree with these statements. I had 517's that showed stress marks (very fine cracks)
    at the eyelets. I freaked out. I ordered new 519's to get a stronger rim and kept riding until they
    failed. They didn't fail. I replaced the rear when the freehub died on a night ride since I had
    another rim ready to go. I am still running the front. I am now 3 years into these things. I could
    put a new freehub on the 517 and ride it more. I just haven't.

    I also took them to the shop and the wrench said don't worry. He said the only problem is when they
    crack from one eyelet to the next. I am talking about a 517 (light rim) and 519 (stronger free ride
    rim) but that 521 is huge compared to these. I wouldn't worry too much. Take it to the LBS and see
    what they say.

    GP

    --
    http://members.cox.net/gporter1970 "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Minor cracks radiating around the eyelet are usually just the anodizing and are present when new.
    > They can be disregarded.
    >
    > Mavic used to have some extrusion problems which caused circumferential cracks around the rim,
    > often starting at spoke holes, but I think Mavic pretty much have that under control these days.
    >
    > Regarding the ceramic braking surface, sure, it can chip, but ceramic II is better than their
    > original, and unless you lose a /lot/ of the coating, it makes no practical difference to use.
    >
    > Jim
    >
    >
    > gerrit van wijk wrote:
    > > My bikeshop tells me Mavic d521 very strong long lasting rims, perfect
    for
    > > loaded touring and mountanibiking. But I found a review stating the ceramic chips of very easy
    > > and cracks
    form
    > > around the (single) eyelets. Does anybody have simular problems?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
     
  5. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    George L. Porter writes:

    > I can kind of agree with these statements. I had 517's that showed stress marks (very fine cracks)
    > at the eyelets. I freaked out. I ordered new 519's to get a stronger rim and kept riding until
    > they failed. They didn't fail. I replaced the rear when the freehub died on a night ride since I
    > had another rim ready to go. I am still running the front. I am now 3 years into these things. I
    > could put a new freehub on the 517 and ride it more. I just haven't.

    This is all old hat and has been aired here often. Anodizing causes rim fractures that initiate from
    fine surface cracks occurring in the hard and brittle anodized surface. Even before any spokes are
    tightened, these cracks are already there, caused by insertion and crimping of eyelets. If the wheel
    is heavily stressed in use, these cracks grow to the extent that whole sections of rim break out.
    When the anodizing fad began and rims were more heavily anodized, some rims split circumferentially
    in the middle of the braking track, leaving two interlocked hoops, the tie still mounted on the
    outer part.

    If bicyclists would not have such a desire for aluminum rims that don't look like aluminum, aka dark
    non shiny colors, then we wouldn't have this expensive source of rim failure.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  6. jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Mavic used to have some extrusion problems which caused circumferential cracks around the rim,
    > often starting at spoke holes, but I think Mavic pretty much have that under control these days.

    I lost a 36h D521 that way in 2001, bike was built 2000.

    --
    MfG/Best regards helmut springer
     
  7. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    With the greatest of respect, the hooping cracks are extrusion problems. This is evident from
    metallographical examination.

    Yes, you are correct that cracking anodizing /can/ initiate fatigue, but it's not commonly what we
    see in practice - for rims at any rate. Anodizing raises compressive surface stresses, and this
    helps mitigate crack initiation. /All/ aluminum is anodized to some degree, just by exposure to air.
    The color which the anodizing has been stained is not relevant.

    Jim

    [email protected] wrote:
    > George L. Porter writes:
    >
    >
    >>I can kind of agree with these statements. I had 517's that showed stress marks (very fine cracks)
    >>at the eyelets. I freaked out. I ordered new 519's to get a stronger rim and kept riding until
    >>they failed. They didn't fail. I replaced the rear when the freehub died on a night ride since I
    >>had another rim ready to go. I am still running the front. I am now 3 years into these things. I
    >>could put a new freehub on the 517 and ride it more. I just haven't.
    >
    >
    > This is all old hat and has been aired here often. Anodizing causes rim fractures that initiate
    > from fine surface cracks occurring in the hard and brittle anodized surface. Even before any
    > spokes are tightened, these cracks are already there, caused by insertion and crimping of eyelets.
    > If the wheel is heavily stressed in use, these cracks grow to the extent that whole sections of
    > rim break out. When the anodizing fad began and rims were more heavily anodized, some rims split
    > circumferentially in the middle of the braking track, leaving two interlocked hoops, the tie still
    > mounted on the outer part.
    >
    > If bicyclists would not have such a desire for aluminum rims that don't look like aluminum, aka
    > dark non shiny colors, then we wouldn't have this expensive source of rim failure.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  8. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Jim Beam writes:

    >>> I can kind of agree with these statements. I had 517's that showed stress marks (very fine
    >>> cracks) at the eyelets. I freaked out. I ordered new 519's to get a stronger rim and kept riding
    >>> until they failed. They didn't fail. I replaced the rear when the freehub died on a night ride
    >>> since I had another rim ready to go. I am still running the front. I am now 3 years into these
    >>> things. I could put a new freehub on the 517 and ride it more. I just haven't.

    >> This is all old hat and has been aired here often. Anodizing causes rim fractures that initiate
    >> from fine surface cracks occurring in the hard and brittle anodized surface. Even before any
    >> spokes are tightened, these cracks are already there, caused by insertion and crimping of
    >> eyelets. If the wheel is heavily stressed in use, these cracks grow to the extent that whole
    >> sections of rim break out. When the anodizing fad began and rims were more heavily anodized, some
    >> rims split circumferentially in the middle of the braking track, leaving two interlocked hoops,
    >> the tie still mounted on the outer part.

    >> If bicyclists would not have such a desire for aluminum rims that don't look like aluminum, aka
    >> dark non shiny colors, then we wouldn't have this expensive source of rim failure.

    > With the greatest of respect, the hooping cracks are extrusion problems. This is evident from
    > metallographical examination.

    Flattery will get you nowhere! metallographical? Wow!

    By whom? The anodizing was the only difference, the extrusions at that time being available in shiny
    aluminum and black hard anodized. I took samples of each and have the dyed and polished cross
    section photos done by a metallurgical laboratory at Alcan that show cracks propagating from the
    anodizing into the base metal in the anodized version and no cracks at all in the plain version of
    the same rim, the MA-2 and MA-40, the latter having cracked circumferentially. Both rims had
    substantial use. The plain one was bent in a crash.

    > Yes, you are correct that cracking anodizing /can/ initiate fatigue, but it's not commonly what we
    > see in practice - for rims at any rate. Anodizing raises compressive surface stresses, and this
    > helps mitigate crack initiation. /All/ aluminum is anodized to some degree, just by exposure to
    > air. The color which the anodizing has been stained is not relevant.

    The way you say that one might guess that you work for Mavic. The natural oxide on a polished rim is
    possibly 0.01mm thick at best and has so little strength that it cannot but craze on the microscopic
    level under stress. That is, the skin is so weak that it cannot effect the base metal. Besides, the
    structure of that surface is not the same as anodizing.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  9. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    > I took samples of each and have the dyed and polished cross section photos done by a metallurgical
    > laboratory at Alcan that show cracks propagating from the anodizing into the base metal in the
    > anodized version and no cracks at all in the plain version of the same rim, the MA-2 and MA-40,
    > the latter having cracked circumferentially. Both rims had substantial use. The plain one was bent
    > in a crash.

    Good! Science! Can you post the pics?

    Question: By "section", do you mean that you examined a longitudinal section also? The etched
    samples I've seen show defect lines clearly running along the extrusion axis. The cracks merely
    followed the line of these defects. The fact that anodizing cracks radiate around an eyelet, and
    some [naturally] follow the extrusion axis, may arguably exacerbate the problem, but are not the
    primary cause from what I can see. The rough, somewhat granular nature of the fracture surface
    should be sufficient proof of inter-granular crack propagation, [extrusion] rather than
    trans-granular [fatigue].

    http://tandem-fahren.de/Mitglieder/Christoph_Timm/imm022a.jpg
    http://tandem-fahren.de/Mitglieder/Christoph_Timm/imm032a.jpg These two failures can by no means be
    attributed to cracked anodizing radiating from spoke eyelets for example. Note also how the second
    picture shows one fracture changing plane no less than 5 times, each following an extrusion band.
    And not being arrested when encountering an [unstressed] spoke hole! Definitely not fatigue
    fracture behavior.

    > The way you say that one might guess that you work for Mavic.

    No.

    On the subject of fatigue, there's a book well worth reading: Deiter - Mechanical Metallurgy. ISBN
    0-07-016893-8. Chapter 12-9 has an interesting and relevant section on fatigue nucleation. It
    specifically discusses nucleation at surface defects, including small features like slip bands. This
    fatigue initiation mechanism is particularly interesting for the debate on spoke failure.

    Jim
     
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